MS261 with 20" bar - why is that not recommended?

[Amin_1992]

Hey guys. Bought an MS261 two years ago with a 20" bar and have loved it. I heat my home with a wood stove, so the main job of this saw is bucking large diameter logs, around 20-25" usually. Usually these are Red Oak but also sometimes Ash and Maples.

I'm now reading online that many guys do not recommend a 20" bar for bucking hardwood with a 261. I'm confused why? I see people say the saw can't keep up but I haven't noticed any issues.

I rather not go down to the 18" as the 20" can reach through on the majority of my logs. I upgraded to the 261 from an MS250 that only had an 18" bar, and if I remember correctly the 18" bar on that actually measured closer to 16". With the 250, I was still satisfied with the power but the length really sucked as it took me twice as long to buck logs (cutting one side and then another).

Am I doing damage to my saw running a 20" bar and bucking hardwood like this? Is there something I should be listening for or keeping an eye out for? Saw has never stalled and yes the RPMs go down when fully sinking into a log but not anymore than any saw would I feel like.

Thanks guys

 

[buzz sawyer]

I say it depends on how you run it. If you run good mix, keep the chain sharp and the bar dressed and let the saw feed itself through the log, you should have no problem. I personally prefer at least a 60cc saw for hardwood that size.

 

[Lee192233]

It works but as stated above everything has to be right. Once you cut with a 70cc class saw with a 24" bar you'll never run a 261 in wood that size. The 261 is a great saw though!

If you're happy with it that's all that matters.

 

[Amin_1992]

Thanks for the replies guys. I use a 50:1 and if anything err toward 40:1, always sharpen my chain every fuel tank, and she oils more than enough. So I guess I'm in the clear.

I guess I'm just confused as to what people don't like about the 20" on the 261. Like what does it sound/feel like to not have enough power? Or what kind of wear would I be looking for?

Is it the lack of power or is it detrimental to the life of the chainsaw? I understand the concepts but I don't see how going down 2" to an 18" would make a huge difference

 

[oldguy]

Your not hurting the saw, it's just a bit slow, like Lee said above once you run a 70cc saw in that size wood you won't go back to the 261.

 

[SAWMIKAZE]

With the new "light" bar and RSP narrow kerf chain a 261 handles a 20" bar well, it has less of a bite.

Otherwise opinions are subjective, the size and species of wood people cut shapes their opinion, then people have their expectations that are all different.

Do what works for you.

 

[cuznguido]

I disagree that if you use a 70 cc saw you wont go back. I have a 462 that is easily the best Stihl saw I ever ran, but I run a 261 with 3/8 RS chain on 20 inch bar about 80 percent of the time. 462 is noticably lighter than a 461 but the 261 is noticably lighter than both. Just sayin...

 

[stihltech]

As stated, the reason most wan a larger saw for a 20 inch bar is speed and power.
In the shop, most operators will try to run a dull chain. This is death on any saw, but worse on a smaller saw.
You have the right idea. Sharp chain, good fuel and maintenance. You won't have an issue.

 

[Amin_1992]

Thank you all. All makes sense more. I'll admit the 20" bar through a solid Oak log is slow, but she's steady and gets it done! I am bucking probably 2-3 cords myself per year so nothing too too wild.

Thanks again everyone

 

[ElevatorGuy]

Thank you all. All makes sense more. I'll admit the 20" bar through a solid Oak log is slow, but she's steady and gets it done! I am bucking probably 2-3 cords myself per year so nothing too too wild.

Thanks again everyone

Yep, it’s slow lol. Ported 261 running a 16” here.

 

[allbrandfan]

I'm an idiot, as evidenced by my degrees in mechanical engineering/ machine design. I own a pile of saws and only 2 are Stihl, so what I am about to speculate may be complete stupidity but here goes....

There's what you CAN do, and then what Stihl "recommends " or doesn't. I imagine there are several factors at play in discouraging the use of a 20 on a 261.
Biggest 2 would be:
oiler - is it borderline to keep the big bar fed
Bar mount- longer bars exert more leverage. All that force/stress concentrates right at the bar studs. A small, light saw isn't going to have as much structure in the case around the studs.
A 261 has the hp to pull a 20, but might not like the long-term "abuse" it imposes.

Other minor concerns (for obsessive German engineers):
- clutch life? It can handle 4hp at high rpm, but a big bar is going to demand higher torque and will lower rpm. Less rpm=less engagement force=potential slipping =heat= early clutch failure.

-engine cooling? The duty cycle running a buried 20 is certainly worse than a 16" bar limbing and trimming. You "might" risk overheating with long runs at max torque with the fan running slower.

-brake performance. Can the chain brake stop a heavier 20" chain in the required time? The saw might not comply with safety regulations. You may not care but Stihl's lawyers do.

-user satisfaction. If im selling saws on performance, I want you to be impressed with how quick and well it cuts and also the balance. I'm going to recommend a modest bar size and then sell you a bigger powerhead if you insist on running the longer bars.

Just the musings of one moron with an affinity for screaming 2-smokes

 

[James Sawyer]

Hey guys. Bought an MS261 two years ago with a 20" bar and have loved it. I heat my home with a wood stove, so the main job of this saw is bucking large diameter logs, around 20-25" usually. Usually these are Red Oak but also sometimes Ash and Maples.

I'm now reading online that many guys do not recommend a 20" bar for bucking hardwood with a 261. I'm confused why? I see people say the saw can't keep up but I haven't noticed any issues.

I rather not go down to the 18" as the 20" can reach through on the majority of my logs. I upgraded to the 261 from an MS250 that only had an 18" bar, and if I remember correctly the 18" bar on that actually measured closer to 16". With the 250, I was still satisfied with the power but the length really sucked as it took me twice as long to buck logs (cutting one side and then another).

Am I doing damage to my saw running a 20" bar and bucking hardwood like this? Is there something I should be listening for or keeping an eye out for? Saw has never stalled and yes the RPMs go down when fully sinking into a log but not anymore than any saw would I feel like.

Thanks guys

What chain are you running, how sharp is your chain. Its all about chain speed if you think your saw bogging down to much. Change your chain to Semi skip or full skip chain. If you are running semi chisel going to full chisel will also help. But keeping a sharp chain is key, with the hardwoods you might change you cutter angle from 30 degrees to 25 degrees to help keep your chain sharper longer. I won't change the bar but that just me.

 

[Michael E]

A longer bar and chain has more friction and will reduce the saw's power. Not much, but still.

A longer bar, buried in hardwood, will put more strain on the engine. Combine that with a dull bar and/or plugged cooling fins, it's easy for the user to overheat the engine and burn up the piston.

Like many said, if it works for you and you are careful - it's only a recommendation.

 

[Fordiesel69]

Amin_1992,

One thing to remember is quite a few people that give advice are either active or retired from tree services of some kind. In a production environment you will need to get work done fast to get paid. The saws will either get timed out (hours), ran over / damaged, or stolen. That will be that saws end of life. In a home / farm / ranch environment a saw will usually age out well before the internals are worn out. Example dry rotted fuel line, carburetor, crank seals. I have noticed people in the industry have a different opinion on how big of saw to use and often use a saw too big for the job.

A modern 50cc saw usually does best with an 18" x .325 chain. Husqvarna 545 Mark II ships with a 20" x .325 chain. So to answer your question a 20 IN on your 261 is not going to damage it. You will just have lower chain speed and the engine will be lugging more. Where you will damage your saw is if the clutch is stalling all the time and you are getting it red hot as a result. In your environment is sounds like you are doing the right thing and just letting it take its time cutting thru and having the patience to wait it out. In all cases keep your chain sharp.

I did swap a 3/8 rim sprocket and installed a 20 IN bar on my 545 MARK II with a 3/8 x .050 x 72DL and it still pulled just fine thru ash wood. It was not lacking power but you could tell it was taxing the engine more than the videos show using the factory .325 setup.

You will be just fine in a home / farm environment.

 

[Captain Bruce]

Hey guys. Bought an MS261 two years ago with a 20" bar and have loved it. I heat my home with a wood stove, so the main job of this saw is bucking large diameter logs, around 20-25" usually. Usually these are Red Oak but also sometimes Ash and Maples.

I'm now reading online that many guys do not recommend a 20" bar for bucking hardwood with a 261. I'm confused why? I see people say the saw can't keep up but I haven't noticed any issues.

I rather not go down to the 18" as the 20" can reach through on the majority of my logs. I upgraded to the 261 from an MS250 that only had an 18" bar, and if I remember correctly the 18" bar on that actually measured closer to 16". With the 250, I was still satisfied with the power but the length really sucked as it took me twice as long to buck logs (cutting one side and then another).

Am I doing damage to my saw running a 20" bar and bucking hardwood like this? Is there something I should be listening for or keeping an eye out for? Saw has never stalled and yes the RPMs go down when fully sinking into a log but not anymore than any saw would I feel like.

Thanks guys

There is your problem, "reading on-line" and "many guys". The MS 260 PRO would run circles around a 390, and with a 20" set-up. Your MS261 is the same engine, and defintely has the grunt. As has been already said here, sharp chain, premium fuel, and let the saw cut at its pace.....that dog will hunt!

 

[Skeena2]

My experience is with pacific northwest west softwoods, red alder and paper birch.

I run a 28” bar on my 026 and 261. 3/8” skip tooth full chisel round filed. 7 tooth sprocket. Between the two saws I have been using the same 28” lightweight bar for 6 years getting firewood and clearing trails. I’ve used up 6 chains by running out of tooth to file.

From an ergonomic point of view the 28” is amazing on the lightweight 261. Bar wear doesn’t seem noticeable. I gauge oiling issues by how fast the chain slows when throttle is released. I haven’t had any issues. Orginal tip. Keeping a sharp chain and rackers correctly filed is especially crucial as this is a stand up and buck setup. Where the dogs generally don’t come into contact with the wood.

I suspect that if this a common use for your 261 its a little small power wise for the job. Not saying a 261 can’t do it. But it’s a great reason to buy a bigger saw.

For the short bar sore back crowd. My childhood was heated by firewood cut with a 024 and a 20” bar. That west German made saw and Windsor bar still work great.

 

[fields_mj]

This is my personal opinion, but for wood that size I MUCH prefer a 60cc saw. In fact, if I'm MOST of what I'm cutting is 20" or more, I'll often grab a 90cc saw (I don't have a 70cc option). Typically, SOME of the wood is over 20" but MOST is in the 12" to 20" range so a 60cc saw is about right for me. With that being said, the 261 is reportedly noticeably better than the older 026/ms260 so the difference between it and an 036 isn't going to be as pronounced. Depending on your age, physical condition, and how you cut, a slightly lighter saw may be MUCH better for you than a slightly faster one.

As far as a 20" bar goes, most of the replies above pretty much cover it. It's not just about chain speed. Its about how many chips you're making, and how big those chips are. The longer the bar and chain are, the more chain their is for the engine to pull even though that extra chain may not be cutting anything. If the extra chain IS cutting something, then that's extra chips that the chain needs to pull out of the kerf. Most 40-50cc saws (including the 261) are designed to run at a higher RPM. If they drop their speed very much, the loose a lot of power. With these saws, the extra work load from those things will eat up enough HP that your RPMs drop, and that can drastically reduce the amount of torque and HP the saw is able to produce. If the operator understands where the saw needs to run RPM wise in order to be at its peak torque, and runs the saw accordingly, a 261 will punch well outside of its weight class. For those who are accustomed to leaning on the saw a bit, they are going to hate running a 20" bar on a 261.

Someone above recommended a semi-chisel instead of a full chisel for a 20" bar. I'd disagree there also. The saw maintains its RPM, but it's taking thinner chips because it takes more pressure for the larger cutting surface to penetrate into the wood. It may throw just as many chips, but they aren't as big and the cut is slower. The more acute leading point on a full chisel chain will penetrate the wood a lot easier than what a semi-chisel will. As the chains are used (still sharp, but not cats paw sharp so maybe 1/2 tank in) this gets more pronounced meaning. You're better off with a full chisel chain running WOT and let the weight of the saw do the work. Now, how important is this in practical application? Not very....

As far as an 18" bar being too short for 20"-25" oak, I would beg to differ. I normally run an 18" bar on everything that's 60cc or less and I cut mostly hickory, and oak with some locust and ash mixed in. If I'm cutting on the ground, I actually prefer the slightly shorter bar. It keeps the log together so that I can roll the whole thing over at once and keep the bar out of the dirt. Cutting the back side doesn't even come close to doubling the time. Those cuts are very short and very quick. If the log is not on the ground, I just start my cut with the spikes almost centered on the log. Pivot the nose down so that I've cut all the way through the back side of the law, and then bring the near side of the cut towards you and down. 25" from one side is not a problem. A 16" bar is likely going to be a lot more of a problem. If you went that short, I'd recommend dropping the rakers down and running an 8 tooth sprocket (try the sprocket first before lowering depth gauges) because 16" is a little on the short side for a 4hp saw.

 

[Lee192233]

I run a 20" .325 on my 026. It's more for reach so I'm not bending so much. However if it’s buried in hardwood it takes a deft touch to keep the rpm up. Will it do it? Yes, but it’s not as fast as my MS400 or MS460. My time is precious so I like just tearing through 20" plus logs when I'm bucking em.

Like I said before, if it’s working for you then that's all that matters.

 

[zord1995]

There potential that it won’t oil the whole bar, it should run as that’s we recommend for the max, the sweet spot for that saw to bar length is 18inc.

 

[RCamo]

Hey guys. Bought an MS261 two years ago with a 20" bar and have loved it. I heat my home with a wood stove, so the main job of this saw is bucking large diameter logs, around 20-25" usually. Usually these are Red Oak but also sometimes Ash and Maples.

I'm now reading online that many guys do not recommend a 20" bar for bucking hardwood with a 261. I'm confused why? I see people say the saw can't keep up but I haven't noticed any issues.

I rather not go down to the 18" as the 20" can reach through on the majority of my logs. I upgraded to the 261 from an MS250 that only had an 18" bar, and if I remember correctly the 18" bar on that actually measured closer to 16". With the 250, I was still satisfied with the power but the length really sucked as it took me twice as long to buck logs (cutting one side and then another).

Am I doing damage to my saw running a 20" bar and bucking hardwood like this? Is there something I should be listening for or keeping an eye out for? Saw has never stalled and yes the RPMs go down when fully sinking into a log but not anymore than any saw would I feel like.

Thanks guys

I've been running a 20" bar on my 261 and haven't had issues at all.