Need some wedge wisdom

[Skeans]

If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.

You’re funny you’ve never cut timber jacks that are bigger then 20 tons are used all the time for directional falling. The set I posted above are 102 tons together with the ability to go up to 306 tons on the one pump it’s not that uncommon to run a double set on a back leaner.


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[TheJollyLogger]

A 20t jack is just like any other tool or technique... success or failure depends on the experience and judgment of the operator, and the site and conditions of the tree.

 

[rwoods]

If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.

Northman is logging. Not much log production in climbing a tree.

I’m just a firewooder. No climbing and no jacks for me. Risk reward doesn’t work out for me.

Ron

 

[northmanlogging]

If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.

most of the time if I have the space I would set a pull line, though I got smart and use a BigShot so I don't need to climb them as much anymore.

However, I don't always have anything to rig too, as I don't always have flat ground, or an anchor to work with, or its simply faster to use a jack, as rigging a tree takes at least an hour (I generally work alone).

As for whether or not a 20 ton is overkill, lately I've been falling timber that is right around 190' and 50" at the butt cut, that jack takes a heluva lot of the work out of beating wedges, and a smaller jack would of just quit, even the 20ton will max out on some of these trees, and these aren't even back leaning all that hard, it just takes a lot of grunt to get them to lift.
That said, even on smaller timber the 20ton isn't always enough, the tree I described above (that bent both jack handles) was only about 120' and 40" on the butt, it was just limb heavy on the wrong side, even with 2 jacks working it, I still had to jack a little then beat some wedges repeat for 2 hours, and no, a pull line was out of the question, as there was no where to pull from let alone anchor too as it was on the end of a ridge, steep ground on 3 sides of it, with a road and power lines on 2 sides, though this story is not the norm, mostly the jacks come in for trees that have a back lean, simply because they save effort vs wedging, and it only takes a few minutes to set the jack up.

Sometimes however, the jacks can be a life saver, you find yourself cutting up some tall timber, but the wind picks up even a little bit, suddenly that tree with good positive lean, or even just a slight back lean... is getting blown hard the other way, you've already cut it up, so climbing isnt' an option and rigging it is only slightly less dangerous, so a jack it is, you can put a lot more force on a jack then you ever will banging wedges. OR in the same train of thought, you screwed up and now the tree has sat back on you, you'll never get a wedge started so go get the jack so you can lift it up and over.

 

[northmanlogging]

Ironically, that wind picking up bit... has happened to me yes, as it will to anyone that has done this long enough.
But my grandpappy (whom I'll never meet) used to be a timber faller back in the 1950-60's He was working a job alone (yeah yeah I get it) and the wind picked up, so he was making his way back to get a jack when the hold wood let go, smashed him into a low spot, where he broke his back.... never went to the doctor (cause merica even then) just made himself a brace and cut shakes over the winter to pay the bills.

I heard this story days before I was cutting some property line timber, that sat back.... So I'm thinking of this story as I walk out in front of said faced and back cut timber to go retrieve a jack... luckily for me the wind didn't change and I was able to get it down where I wanted without breaking my back lol.

 

[northmanlogging]

This would be the neighbor of the tree from the above story..


same shirt, different project (about a year later?) but a good jacking vidjeo

 

[TheJollyLogger]

If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.

He's from Ireland, don't think he's ever dealt with a PNW tree...

 

[northmanlogging]

He's from Ireland, don't think he's ever dealt with a PNW tree...

Most of the timber available in Ire is Douglas Fir and Sitka spruce, with some western red cedar sprinkled about, at least in the commercially logged stuff. Seems that all them fir cones we picked as kids were sent to Europe to rebuild their forests after some sort of blight (likely caused by sending over seedlings for garden purposes...)

Granted many of the yard trees in Ireland are going to be various oaks and beech etc, anyway, its likely he'll get the chance to slay a few fat dougies given enough time.

 

[jamesmcsparron]

You’re funny you’ve never cut timber jacks that are bigger then 20 tons are used all the time for directional falling. The set I posted above are 102 tons together with the ability to go up to 306 tons on the one pump it’s not that uncommon to run a double set on a back leaner.


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most of the time if I have the space I would set a pull line, though I got smart and use a BigShot so I don't need to climb them as much anymore.

However, I don't always have anything to rig too, as I don't always have flat ground, or an anchor to work with, or its simply faster to use a jack, as rigging a tree takes at least an hour (I generally work alone).

As for whether or not a 20 ton is overkill, lately I've been falling timber that is right around 190' and 50" at the butt cut, that jack takes a heluva lot of the work out of beating wedges, and a smaller jack would of just quit, even the 20ton will max out on some of these trees, and these aren't even back leaning all that hard, it just takes a lot of grunt to get them to lift.
That said, even on smaller timber the 20ton isn't always enough, the tree I described above (that bent both jack handles) was only about 120' and 40" on the butt, it was just limb heavy on the wrong side, even with 2 jacks working it, I still had to jack a little then beat some wedges repeat for 2 hours, and no, a pull line was out of the question, as there was no where to pull from let alone anchor too as it was on the end of a ridge, steep ground on 3 sides of it, with a road and power lines on 2 sides, though this story is not the norm, mostly the jacks come in for trees that have a back lean, simply because they save effort vs wedging, and it only takes a few minutes to set the jack up.

Sometimes however, the jacks can be a life saver, you find yourself cutting up some tall timber, but the wind picks up even a little bit, suddenly that tree with good positive lean, or even just a slight back lean... is getting blown hard the other way, you've already cut it up, so climbing isnt' an option and rigging it is only slightly less dangerous, so a jack it is, you can put a lot more force on a jack then you ever will banging wedges. OR in the same train of thought, you screwed up and now the tree has sat back on you, you'll never get a wedge started so go get the jack so you can lift it up and over.

I suppose it's horses for courses. I'm an arborist so climbing and sectional felling a tree similar to the one you described above "*it was just limb heavy on the wrong side*" would be my option.
I understand, from your point, if you are felling many trees over a long period it would be more energy conservative to use the fastest method at your disposal.
I hope you don't think I'm trying to be a contrary smart ass with my comments btw.
I use a 4tn bottle jack, not too often, when there's a big tree that is either sitting fairly straight or perhaps even a few degrees backwards, to push over when it's away from dwellings or buildings. But mainly, it's usually a climbing job with rigging.
Also, the trees here in Ireland are probably the size of shrubs compared to where you are logging.

'I got sick once after eating a horse steak and after checking, the Doctor said I was stable".

 

[jamesmcsparron]

He's from Ireland, don't think he's ever dealt with a PNW tree...

Too true, too true. To be sure to be sure.

 

[Dave1960_Gorge]

as stated above, the wedge is meant to keep the kerf open while you finish the cuts, it can then be used to lift the tree over the balance point, but only after the cuts are finished.

if you are stacking wedges, the you will for sure need a wedge in long before you finish cutting enough, the tree will sit back and then you are really hooped.

Should I mention that standard practice is to leave the saw in the cut, until the very last minute, or until the hold wood is sufficiently small enough the any more cutting would be unwise? Personally I cut plastic wedges all the damned time, and occasionally smash them into the saw (a real PITA btw) so if they were steel...

Furthermore, when cutting a hard back leaner, most folks leave more hold wood, so they can get the tree lifted some while they can be sure its not going to pop off the stump, once its stood up you can then nibble at the hold wood and more often then not the compressed wood around the wedges will return some and its enough to tip the tree the rest of the way over.

so if you advocate for using steel wedges, some jack ass is going to try it rip the cutting edges off every link of chain and be in a world of hurt and possibly blind.

Yeah a guy can use a steel wedge when the saw is not in the kerf, but who actually does this? (not any logger that plans on making a living at it) and who in their right mind is going to drag a 7# pound single purpose wedge with them through the woods? (if you say but the truck is only 10' away you can please **** right off).

and no, common sense isn't common, so we should all try and give the correct idea, not the fringe nutter ideas that only work in narrow minded situations.

So I guess there are more then a handful of reasons to leave a saw in the cut, where it could and likely will make contact with any wedge, so not having a steel wedge in the way at all is maybe a good decision?

"can then be used to lift the tree over the balance point, but only after the cuts are finished."

Usually. But I have done a variation on that, in which I cut the middle of the hinge out so that I can hammer the wedges in a bit more. Usually cut from the back cut side, but sometimes (carefully) from the face cut side. Useful on skinny leaners especially.

Not a technique for beginners, as a lot can go wrong: you might send the wedges flying out or pinch the bar going through the hinge if it starts to go before you pull it out --sometimes it will go before you hit the wedges again (kiss the bar goodby). I have never had the remaining holding wood break before its time, but you have to read the tree. Not saying this is ANSI or C faller approved!

Helpful to have some small wedges for trees a foot thick. Or slow down and put a damn rope in it on a fiddleblock or winch. A tight rope is often all you need, with a lot less banging on wedges; the stretch applies enough force to pull over many trees without using wedges at all. However, it is a good idea to at least start one in case the rope loosens up (like if it is across a branch that breaks under load -- a check your shorts moment).

 

[northmanlogging]

I suppose it's horses for courses. I'm an arborist so climbing and sectional felling a tree similar to the one you described above "*it was just limb heavy on the wrong side*" would be my option.
I understand, from your point, if you are felling many trees over a long period it would be more energy conservative to use the fastest method at your disposal.
I hope you don't think I'm trying to be a contrary smart ass with my comments btw.
I use a 4tn bottle jack, not too often, when there's a big tree that is either sitting fairly straight or perhaps even a few degrees backwards, to push over when it's away from dwellings or buildings. But mainly, it's usually a climbing job with rigging.
Also, the trees here in Ireland are probably the size of shrubs compared to where you are logging.

'I got sick once after eating a horse steak and after checking, the Doctor said I was stable".

Meh, I've been to Ireland, most of the trees are quite short (stupid atlantic wind beats the S out of em never mind O. Cromwell and his round heads) but there was some pretty damned impressive oaks in Killarney, as well as a few of the Pale houses have a bunch of massive transplant PNW stuff.

Either way, even with a smaller tree, I'd be uncomfortable with a 4t ton jack, they really are just puny little things.

 

[Batt4Christ]

if you have EVER ran a saw you would know, there will most definitely be contact, unless you come from a bottle

There's a reason for plastic wedges - and wedges with much use will show it - they get nipped away by chains... Contact in many wedging uses is nearly impossible to avoid.

 

[ZinTrees]

There's a reason for plastic wedges - and wedges with much use will show it - they get nipped away by chains... Contact in many wedging uses is nearly impossible to avoid.

got the corner ripped off one of mine on the first use
perfect bar tip shaped cut

 

[V.I. Firewood Company .]

Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge?

 

[V.I. Firewood Company .]

Cutting a back leaner yesterday and needed more lift than what one wedge could lift. When I doubled up with 2 wedges after about 3 hits with a hammer, the double stacked wedges would pop out. Never got it jacked up on the double stack wedge. Sure wouldn’t want to get it jacked up on 2 then have them pop out. Give me some words of wisdom what do you do when 1 wedge isn’t enough. Does anybody make a double tall wedge

The effectiveness of a wedge usually starts with the diameter of tree . The smaller the tree the harder it is to control with wedging . Doubling up wedges is very common . But the correct way ( in larger wood ) is to use 4 wedges when doubling up . Once you’ve finish your face cut you can begin the back cut . As soon as possible insert your first wedge . Continue to cut, stopping to tap the first wedge in . Proceed to cut some more holding wood .
Stop again and put two stacked wedges beside the single wedge . Drive them into the cut . Hit them far enough to loosen the single wedge . Remove the single wedge and stack another one on top of it . Insert the two new wedges beside the other wedges in the tree drive them into the cut . There is now four wedges in the tree . Finish the back cut . Alternate hitting the stacks of wedges until the tree falls . Wedges last longer by doing this as the end don’t get so beat up .
Also it helps if you sprinkle sawdust in between the stacked wedges . The sawdust helps keep the wedges from popping out .
Cheers,
Look up and live .

 

[Wow]

I do. I make my own wooden wedges. Some ,375 inches thick. Some thicker. Mine never jump out. Skill and coating. My wedges kinda stick together plus they are crossed when shacked.

 

[VW Splitter]

Wow, What/how do you coat your homemade wooden wedges?

 

[Ted Jenkins]

Home made wood wedges are more than superior for most applications. Wood wedges are tough replaceable and cheap. I have never coated but that does not mean that should not be. I make an assortment of taper and thickness witch can be very important. If I have a leaner that needs to go exactly where than maybe eight are needed and another set added as tree moves. Almost never do I stack because some start out at an inch or more eliminating the need for stacking. Thanks

 

[Limbrat]

I used to make them out of live oak which is about the toughest and hardest wood we have here. The easiest way to do it is to leave a high stump, make two angled cuts down into the stump that meet at the length that you need. Pop out your super wide wedge and cut the desired widths out with a circular saw. They are tough but they absorb a blow more than plastic and it takes more licks to drive to the same depth. If I needed to clean them up I used the King Arthur Lancelot grinder wheel with chainsaw teeth on it. Steel wedges? Not on my job.