Need some wedge wisdom

[ATH]

....One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. ....

How were steel wedges better than plastic wedges in that circumstance? They won't crush. Sure, you'll mushroom the head a little pounding them in. Wood wedges probably wouldn't have done the job alone because they do have extra friction (good in some circumstances, not in others).

I should make more wood wedges. Sometimes I'll make one on the spot if I only have one plastic wedge with me and it isn't getting enough lift...but some intentionally made wedges from curly wood that will be less likely to split (like the elm you describe) sounds like a good plan!

 

[pdqdl]

There is no possibility of a moving chain & steel wedge coming in contact if common sense prevails. I realize that might in short supply.

There is a reason so many plastic & aluminum wedges are sold, and it isn't because they don't outlast the steel wedges. It's because they routinely contact the running chain. And wedges are a bit cheaper to replace than saw chains.

 

[pdqdl]

Several good ideas here. Thanks for all the replies. Here is a little more info on what I actually had going on. It was a double trunked oak tree that came together about 6 foot above the ground. It was 34 inches in diameter at the bottom. Each of the two trunks were about 20 inches in diameter. One trunk was about 5° leaning back and the other trunk was about 15° leading back. I put 3 heavy ratchet straps on the 6 foot truck. And one heavy ratchet strap about 15 foot above where the trunks came together. I tied a 7/8” bull rope about 25 feet up on one of the trunks. That rope went down into the woods through a snatch block which was tied to a very large tree. Then back up through the woods to my 4 x 4, 2500 ram pick up with worn out tires. I pretension the rope enough to see the top of the tree move a little bit, thinking I could pull it over when the time came. I made a wide open face cut, about 1/4 of the way into the trunk, real close to the ground. And then started the back cut. I got some plastic wedges set in as soon as I was deep enough to get them in. I continued with the back cut setting more wedges in as I went. Ended up with about 5 wedges in the back cut. I hammered the wedges and as far as they would go, lifting the tree till the wedges were up flush with the tree. All the wedges were on the backside of the back cut and not on the sides. I tried to pull the tree on over with my truck but I was just spinning my wheels on the lightly graveled road. That’s when I started trying the double wedges. And they would start a little bit then pop out. I did notice that hitting them one at a time would get them in a little deeper before they popped out but I never got the weight up off the single wedges. I did have a 20 ton bottle jack with me, and was about to cut a hole in the back of the tree to get the jack inserted in, but before I got that going on, we hooked a small 4 x 4 tractor to the front of my truck and the truck and tractor were able to pull the tree on over. In hindsight, some better treads on my truck could’ve made a difference. And my hinge was a little thick. The hinge should have been about 3 1/2” thick and I’m guessing it was closer to 5” thick. I erred on safety I guess, which made harder to break over. I guess better too thick of a hinge than too thin of a hinge. Thanks for all the ideas. I may try some saw dust or dirt in between the wedges next time. I like the idea of some flat spacers in the back cut also. 99% of the time I always have my truck there handy so carrying lots of extra goods in my bag of tricks is not a problem.
Wish I had taken some pictures. Hindsight is 20/20.
thanks again for all the replies.
Gary

Next time set your rope higher. Get a good throwball setup if you don't have one.

I had some idiots working for me once that couldn't tip a large oak tree tied 40" high. It was a straight spar with no leans, and all the limbs had been cut off. Through complete lunacy, they managed to roll my 20,000lb knuckleboom crane onto it's side trying to pull the tree over with the 12k winch. While it was on flat pavement with the outriggers extended, no less.

In the final analysis, all it needed was putting the chainsaw in the cut and making the hinge thinner. Boy was I pissed! Some folks went home that day unemployed.

BTW: I cut the tree down, using no ropes or wedges. Moral of the story: If it don't go easy, you are probably doing something wrong.

 

[square1]

There is a reason so many plastic & aluminum wedges are sold, and it isn't because they don't outlast the steel wedges. It's because they routinely contact the running chain. And wedges are a bit cheaper to replace than saw chains.

 

[pdqdl]

Damn. I should make that my avatar.

 

[MesquiteFreak]

If the op is still around check to see if your wedges are single taper or double taper? If you are trying to stack double taper wedges than that is going to be your issue with them not sticking around full-term.

 

[VW Splitter]

Didn’t know there was a difference. I’m guessing mine are all double taper? Is double taper the most common type of wedge?

 

[MesquiteFreak]

I don't know if one is more common than the other. There are no good comparison pics I could find so this first link is to a single taper wedge.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/270658739190
And this link is to a double taper, so you can see the difference and compare to your wedges.

https://www.westechrigging.com/wedge-plastic-hd-10-dt.html

 

[TRTermite]

I'm an old guy 75. Almost retired but still piddle. Im teaching my 24 year old Grandson and trying to keep him healthy and alive. For what it's worth I seldom use plastic wedges. I build my own wooden wedges. When you build your own using a table saw and a jig you can build a few about 1 inch thick and a few 1.5 inches thick. We just dropped a big back leaner. A dangerous tree. I loaded my tool belt with about 6 cured elm wedges. We took our time and discussed in detail before the saw was cranked. As soon as there was room We put 2 wedges behind the cut. Then I stacked 2 longer wedges crossed a few degrees. Tap one then the other to make sure they didn't jump out and allow the tree to come back on us. I think of proper wedging as a learned skill. We use wedges to buck at times. A man could write a book about wedges. Steel wedges, since I've seen so many wooden wedges get Chained over time totally unexpected, steel wedges scare me silly. BUT, I have two of them painted orange so I can find them AND on RARE occasions have used them in conjunction with wood wedges. One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. BUT that's a rarity. Normally I'll use a bull rope IF there's some anchor point to secure the line in the fall. You danged sure don't want to take a chance of a chainsaw coming in contact with steel. IMHO, I think most accidents are caused by Rabbits and Bull frogs. We've all seen em. Jumping running croaking and cranking Chainsaws. Fire me for being slow and I'll enjoy another day of good health. Getting in a hurry is a REAL danger. In fact Nervous men make me nervous. It's contagious. Ill run like a wolf in the opposite direction. So my opinion is this. There are times some folks can use Steel wedges but it's as dangerous as Kissing a Rattlesnake. Done with caution you get bragging rights. Otherwise your new name might be, One Eyed one armed Jack. Good day, a Papaw

That part about nervous makes nervous reminds me of a job I did. A friend was helping me relocate a remote drive on a (Berry feedwork) sawmill. I have the forklift holding a steel beam and ready to slide it into place , it was close quarter work and I could have done it myself but 2 guys should make it easier. I shut off the forklift and explain to "MIKEE" What we are going to do, And really emphasize to him we are getting paid by the hour, the machine will be running but is not costing anything to be there running, BUT when a machine is running it will tend to speed up the tempo/pace. We need to take our time and work safe. Wasn't 5 or 10 seconds after we started and I have to remind him we are not in a hurry. By the time the beam is slid into place I was getting frustrated and I was getting NERVOUS and Your analogy is dead on about rabbits and bullfrogs. As much as I stressed the "TAKE OUR TIME" approach Mikee just couldn't follow through. I don't have him help anymore and that is one of the main reasons he is an accident waiting to happen. Some one in one of the earlier posts mentioned leaving the saw in the cut running. I do that but try to resist the hurry up mode that can happen with running equipment. It can create a dangerous situation if one is not aware of the little things.

 

[rwoods]

Didn’t know there was a difference. I’m guessing mine are all double taper? Is double taper the most common type of wedge?

If you are buying standard falling wedges off the shelf, you probably have a single taper wedge which is the preferred falling wedge in most situations. A falling wedge will have one side that forms a 90 degree angle with the driving head and one side that tapers from the head. A double taper wedge typically tapers on both sides from the head (no 90 degree angle) and is used for bucking. Some of the little tiny wedges are meant for bucking. To confuse things there are triple taper wedges, which are falling wedges that are tapered on one side only but has three stages (a three lift wedge). Double Taper is also a brand name wedge. I don't know what shape they have. I wouldn't be surprised if they had two tapers on the same side (a two lift wedge) but I don't know.

The taper (or tapers) of the point does not distinguish a single taper wedge from a double taper wedge. A single taper wedge can have a double taper point.

Ron

 

[singinwoodwackr]

BS
Please explain how the steel wedge and the running saw, which are not in the tree at the same time, contact each other? I'll wait.

Alex Baldwin would know.

 

[philip_b]

Some plastic wedges have bumps on one side for falling frozen timber so they dont pop out all the time, you could try those or wooden wedge but they arent gonna last very long .

 

[Cricket]

I'm an old guy 75. Almost retired but still piddle. Im teaching my 24 year old Grandson and trying to keep him healthy and alive. For what it's worth I seldom use plastic wedges. I build my own wooden wedges. When you build your own using a table saw and a jig you can build a few about 1 inch thick and a few 1.5 inches thick. We just dropped a big back leaner. A dangerous tree. I loaded my tool belt with about 6 cured elm wedges. We took our time and discussed in detail before the saw was cranked. As soon as there was room We put 2 wedges behind the cut. Then I stacked 2 longer wedges crossed a few degrees. Tap one then the other to make sure they didn't jump out and allow the tree to come back on us. I think of proper wedging as a learned skill. We use wedges to buck at times. A man could write a book about wedges. Steel wedges, since I've seen so many wooden wedges get Chained over time totally unexpected, steel wedges scare me silly. BUT, I have two of them painted orange so I can find them AND on RARE occasions have used them in conjunction with wood wedges. One time I had a bad situation. A big almost dead ( bark had not slipped yet or I'd have passed) hickory tree. Due to buildings there was only 1 place to fall. At some point the saw was REMOVED from the back cut and all that held the tree up was those wood wedges. I put 2 steel wedges in the open back cut and used a sledge hammer to work them in. When the wood wedges got loose I stacked them as back up. The tree finally swung past 90% and slowly started to fall. The fall was picture perfect. Looking at that stump I saw how much load those Steel wedges had on them. Somewhere there's a photo. Two black marks with compression lines. BUT that's a rarity. Normally I'll use a bull rope IF there's some anchor point to secure the line in the fall. You danged sure don't want to take a chance of a chainsaw coming in contact with steel. IMHO, I think most accidents are caused by Rabbits and Bull frogs. We've all seen em. Jumping running croaking and cranking Chainsaws. Fire me for being slow and I'll enjoy another day of good health. Getting in a hurry is a REAL danger. In fact Nervous men make me nervous. It's contagious. Ill run like a wolf in the opposite direction. So my opinion is this. There are times some folks can use Steel wedges but it's as dangerous as Kissing a Rattlesnake. Done with caution you get bragging rights. Otherwise your new name might be, One Eyed one armed Jack. Good day, a Papaw

"In fact Nervous men make me nervous."
This is by way of being a universal truth. I've had a nerved up owner not only get their 2000 draft stallion (approximately the size and weight of a Volkswagen Beetle - but dumber...) all stirred up by being nervous, but then cut and run when it started acting stupid(er). I knew someone once who freaked out at a weird five way intersection, so she just closed her eyes and went for it (and got away with it - God looks out for fools and children). Too much confidence is dangerous - but so is not enough to stay calm and *think*.

 

[VW Splitter]

I seemed to have learned a lot about wedges from this forum. Thanks for all the words of wisdom. That’s the way it works around here. Several years ago I was throughly enlighten on barber chair just by asking a question or two. Arborist site is a fountain of knowledge.
thanks.

 

[northmanlogging]

Here's a YT video on using a bottle jack to fell a tree. No need for wedges.

I used this method on an eighty foot back leaning spruce and it worked well.
You need to make sure your cuts are accurate and leave a good parallel four to five inch hinge.
I used a 4ton bottle jack with a flat 3"x3" steel plate attached to the top to give more surface area otherwise the head of the jack will imbed itself into the tree.

couple things here, first and formost, if you plan on using a jack you still need to back it up with wedges, jacks fail, and the wood around the jack can fail, causing all sorts of grief. regardless of having a plate to help, as for accuracy, meh its no more important then any other falling situation, you do have to be careful with how much hold wood you leave, and it can be difficult to judge, too much and you won't be jacking it over at all, too little and it fails early and squishes something important.

2nd: use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)

Some plastic wedges have bumps on one side for falling frozen timber so they dont pop out all the time, you could try those or wooden wedge but they arent gonna last very long .

this is arguably untrue, wedges will pop out on unfrozen timber as well, the bumps help regardless, that said, if you do find yourself having wedges pop out, sprinkle a little dirt/chips on them, it helps them bite a little better, works well for stacking wedges too.

 

[VW Splitter]

: use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)

Years ago the first time I used a bottle jack, I used a 4 ton jack on a big tree, It didn't move. I got a 20 ton jack and it makes a huge difference.

 

[Skeans]

Big difference between bottle jacks and falling timber jacks

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DutchWoodPecker]

A deeper face might have helped with the stacking, but the pounding would have been harder.

The wisdom of a true woodsman...

 

[Cricket]

couple things here, first and formost, if you plan on using a jack you still need to back it up with wedges, jacks fail, and the wood around the jack can fail, causing all sorts of grief. regardless of having a plate to help, as for accuracy, meh its no more important then any other falling situation, you do have to be careful with how much hold wood you leave, and it can be difficult to judge, too much and you won't be jacking it over at all, too little and it fails early and squishes something important.

2nd: use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)

this is arguably untrue, wedges will pop out on unfrozen timber as well, the bumps help regardless, that said, if you do find yourself having wedges pop out, sprinkle a little dirt/chips on them, it helps them bite a little better, works well for stacking wedges too.

Not just felling, re: popping out - I once had one of those "rocket" wedges rise right up out of a log, higher than my head (though to be fair, at 5' nothin', that's not *that* high). It was a good reminder that pressure works in both directions.

 

[jamesmcsparron]

couple things here, first and formost, if you plan on using a jack you still need to back it up with wedges, jacks fail, and the wood around the jack can fail, causing all sorts of grief. regardless of having a plate to help, as for accuracy, meh its no more important then any other falling situation, you do have to be careful with how much hold wood you leave, and it can be difficult to judge, too much and you won't be jacking it over at all, too little and it fails early and squishes something important.

2nd: use a helluva lot more then a 4 ton jack, get a 20+ ton jack or don't bother (FYI Ive broke the handles on 2 20 ton jacks in a single tree, and not a very big or hard leaner either)

this is arguably untrue, wedges will pop out on unfrozen timber as well, the bumps help regardless, that said, if you do find yourself having wedges pop out, sprinkle a little dirt/chips on them, it helps them bite a little better, works well for stacking wedges too.

If you ever feel the need to use a 20tn jack then you'd be better and safer getting your arse up the tree, attaching a rope and pulling the tree over.
The only time I use a jack is when the tree is reasonably balanced or slightly off in the opposite side of the indented felling direction. Any doubt at all and I'll either sectional fell or use a rope.