No Substitute for cubic inches?

[16gauge]

Older saws (15 to 40 years ago) for a given purpose had more displacement. The new saws claim to cut with more power than ever with substantially less displacement...I tend to agree with this...but, are the carburators that much better or what? The Yamaha bikes from 30 years ago seemed to get the best to be had from a 2-stroke .

Interested to hear from younger and "more experienced" saw users.

 

[MacDaddy]

The new saws cut fast with chain speed the old saws cut fast with grunt so larger the wood the slower the new saw As far as new bikes and old bikes I would take a new one anyday over a old one the power now is amazing and the handling is like it runs on rails And the old ones would pull a vw up hill and still not be able to turn So what Im realy saying is I like old saws and new bikes

 

[Simonizer]

I like new saws and new bikes. I have had some fun at Laguna Seca with Wayne Rainey, Wes Cooley, Donny Greene and Dave Emde before. (If anyone can remember roadracing in the late 80's early 90's.)

 

[16gauge]

MacDaddy, Yes I agree, so what happened to make the difference? Kid we just apply existing techhnoly or is there something new?

 

[p38lightning]

No replacement for displacement! Homeys!!!! All joking aside, the new saws do wind up much quicker and the new motorcycles are light yearrs away from the older rigs. With that being said, I cut firewood with 30-40 year old saws most every day. I don't like plastic though I do have a few but ,in my opinion, they're just kinda disposable. I guess I was born in the wrong generation. I raced motorcycles for years and still ride alot. The bikes today are just far better and faster. I have a YZF R1 but it's hard not to love the old KZH900 Kawasaki sitting next to it.

 

[MacDaddy]

I like new saws and new bikes. I have had some fun at Laguna Seca with Wayne Rainey, Wes Cooley, Donny Greene and Dave Emde before. (If anyone can remember roadracing in the late 80's early 90's.)

I used to live in Santa Cruz 88-91 I rode a cr 500 and my buddys rode 250s Doug Chandler and Jeff (chicken) Matasovich(they both lived in Salinas) We would ride across Fort Ord onto Laguna Seca race way and we would race our dirtbikes on the road course the good old days I do have to say even with the 500 I could not keep up with these guys

 

[PWB]

You guys have got me thinking. Way back I had a 175 Can Am dirtbike,rotary valve on the crank instead of a reed. That thing turned crazy rpm's compared to anything else in the area, was running with bigger bikes 10 years newer.

Anyone ever see a saw with a rotary valve? I know reeds are a lot better now than they were then, but at the time a buddy of mine into carts abandoned his Mac 101's for some kind of italian engine with a rotary valve, ran circles around the macs.

 

[SandMan]

That kart engine was maybe a Quazzoni? My Dad and Bro were into kart racing for years, I was into MX and offroad.
Interesting how lots of folks on this forum are into bikes and maybe raced in the past. In my teens I raced at Indian Dunes in SoCal and the rest of the time rode the fire roads in the San Bernadino range. Port polished a few engines and sometime changed port geometry with guidance from Dad. The connection is that my history and this site creates the 'itch' to tweak a saw. Count another one sucked in...

 

[Al Smith]

I can't really add any thing about 2 cycle Motorcycles,never owned one.I can however say a thing or two about old 4 strokes.What comes to mind is a 1950 Indian Warrier TT special,I once owned.500 cc s,280 lbs ,38
hp.Twin Amal carbs,perfect hemi combustion chamber.Too little ,too late,Indian went down the tubes but that little scooter would out run about any thing in a city block,including most 2 strokes.Then again,that was 1964.

 

[Al Smith]

For those that are interested.Macdizzy .com ,has a nice web site about 2 cycle engines.Very informative.

 

[weimedog]

The difference is in tune. The new saws make their power up in the upper RPM's. For example. My 82cc Homelite S-XL 925 makes its power at around 6500rpms to 7500rpms. It actually cuts faster than my 65cc Husky 365..but not by much. The reason the 65 cc Husky is almost as fast as the 82cc Homelite is the Husky will turn 11,000-12,500 RPM.s The technology difference is in the materials..the plastics in the Husky allow a lighter and more "ergonomic" package. The more efficient port design allows those RPM's AND allows for a more efficent power plant. Less fuel for the same HP.

As far as motorcycles??? I like my late model VOR's. My 2002 is going to be a hybrid by the end of the winter with a 2001 503 motor stuffed into the 2002 chassis. It will lose 32 lbs in the transition making it a actual 236lbs with fluids machine. The new generation suspensions are light years ahead and they finally figured out how to make them handle. I really have mixed opinions about the new four strokes. I really liked and still do prefer a snappy 250cc two stroke over ANY four stroke I have ridden. Trust me, I have ridden most of them with the exception of the new Suzuki. The new Honda is really nice....but I still would prefer the CR or RM 250 two stroke. A clear cut case where newer isn't really better for me. The new fourstrokes just don't do it for me.

Back in the early eighties when twostrokes went to water cooling, the more consistent operating temperatures allowed the engineers to push the limits of timing, compression, engine tune..all those thing that would pack more fuel and air into those little motors. Power valves, new case reed induction system designs etc. The more "energy" jammed into those motors would have fried any air cooler designs. Along with all that came higher maintenance costs. More compex designs. BUT more power. Wider power bands. Now we have 45-50hp 250 two strokes. I loved those things. Regulations forced the new fourstroke craze on us. I liked them at first...but after a while I have returned to my roots.

So why do I pick my 1979 KTM 420 most of the time??? Because its more fun for me. Simple as that. I can have or buy any motorcycle offered on the market in the world and I still prefer the old antique KTM.Its a simple and durable design.The big bore two stroke makes the right kind of power. It handles very well even with a truely ridgid suspension...truely a beast! But its a blast to ride.

Saws? My Husky is more practical by ANY sense and measure but I pick my S-XL 925 most often. Next in line the 1130G ...for a very short time. Its another beast. But fun.

I guess age has allowed me to completely ditch image/status thing and shoot for the fun. Free's up many other choises when you are not driven by "fads" or what other people think is cool and right for you.

 

[GASoline71]

The major difference in newer dirt bike 2-strokes is engine efficency. The reeds are now made of carbon fiber, or graphite. The liquid cooling systems are much better than they were in the late 80's, and the powerbands are more rider friendly. The suspensions on the new bikes don't even compare to bikes made just 10 years ago. The newer suspensions are awesome. I'm a child of the 80's and love my old air cooled Rotax powered (left hand kick-start) 1988 ATK 406MX. It is a brute with a paddle tire in the sand, smooth on the trails, but a b1tch on the track. I had a 1997 KX 250 that was a dream to ride on the track, but was a plug foulin' SOB on the trails. My old man had a 1975 Honda Elsinore CR250 (polished metal tank with the green stripe on top), that had more power than you knew what to do with. But lacked good suspension, had crappy brakes, and had a terrible powerband. I will always own 2-strokes just because I am old enuff to remember the hey-day's of these bikes. Kawasaki has dropped the KX125 from the 2006 lineup becuase they can't compete with the 250 4-strokes in the same class. The 250 2-strokes aren't far behind on the choppin' block!

Oh yeah... in keepin' with the chainsaw theme. I like the old slow RPM big bores myself. Just somethin' about the way they sound when buried in a 30" plus log pullin' chips!!!

Gary

 

[GASoline71]

I really liked and still do prefer a snappy 250cc two stroke over ANY four stroke I have ridden. Trust me, I have ridden most of them with the exception of the new Suzuki.

weimedog, if you ride the new RMZ450, it will change the way you think about 4-strokes. I've ridden one.... it will be my next bike. I hope the 2-stroke gods will be kind to me....

Gary

 

[PWB]

The Can Am was a 1974 model, in "enduro" trim (Enough lights and stuff for a roadable bike) Left hand kick start, with the gearshift in the same spot. Mikuni carb. Can Am (bombardier) I was told held the land speed record for small bikes at the time, 125, 175, and 250. Was supposed to be good for 108mph out of the box. Bike was too heavy in "road" trim, 250 lbs. Started to really make horsepower at the same rpm my brother's suzuki was tached out. Probably buzzed about 12-13000 seat of the pants. Cooling fins were about the same size as a Yamaha 400 in the nieghborhood. Had the horspower to keep up, but the "enduro" was a lot of work to push that hard in the dirt. Rotax engine I think.


Wait, Just looked and I've got the manual!! It's a 1973 bike, T'NT model, 250 lbs, 13 to 1 compression, rotary valve, 32 mm Bing carb. Sucker had oil injection, we had it wired wide open and still added oil to the tank. Factory rated at 25 horse at the rear wheel. MX bike was 20 pounds lighter and had a single ring piston where the T'NT had a 2 ring piston. Wish I had it still! Sold it a lot of years ago, couldn't get clutch parts from the dealer. If I knew then what I know now................(sigh)

 

[MacDaddy]

Sven johnson won the would chapionships for hotsaws 8 times with a canam 250 rotary valve motor I had its brother that I sold to Mike Rupely maybe he will read this and post a picture for you guys

 

[PWB]

Wondered if anyone had done that. The 125 bike was rated at 20 hp at the rear wheel. How does that stack up against an 084 or 090, a big Mac, or a big Homey? What's wrong with the saw manufacturers? That's out of the box numbers from 1973, not modded numbers from now!!

 

[MacDaddy]

I would say any of those saws would put out 9 hp on a good day

 

[PWB]

That's about what I thought. No wonder guys use bike motors for hot saws!

 

[weimedog]

A good late model 125 puts out close to 40hp now. Possible in part because of the water cooling.

You could STILL de-tune one of those to the 25hp range and use air cooling....


A couple of key differences between the Motocycle powerplants and saws applications are as follows.

A motorcycle has a burst of power (heat) & then a time to cool as the bike has to slow and get thru a corner. The Saws get into a load situation and just have to pull until the cut is done. The engineers have to design for worst case....steady state power for a long time.

A saw runs in a dirty environment that tends to clog & block air flow from cooling systems

A motorcycle has enough speed to make it an easier design issue to get air thru the cooling system be it air cooled or radiators for watercoold bikes. The saw is not moving that fast (we can only hope!!) and the cooling systems are fan powered to get air moving around the fins.

A motorcycle doesn't have the weight and size constraints of a saw. If you wanted to carry around a bunch of water and a radiator...or a huge pile of fins...a much larger crank & crank case assembly to handle the power...maybe the manufactures could pack the 30-40hp into the 100cc class chain saws.

 

[rupedoggy]

I can not seem to attach that picture because the file was already uploaded in the "Hot Saw" thread. Mike