OK.....Let's Get Into The Meat Of SRT !!!!

[RescueMan]

RADS

What Lumberjack's refering to is the RADS system presented by Michel Goulet of Ottawa, Ontario to the International Technical Rescue Symposium in 2000 (see attachment).

This one is made from a Grigri, a handled ascender, a pulley, and an etrier (or foot ladder - a simple foot loop will do as well). It's acutally a theoretical 3:1 MA system (3 legs to the climber), sort of a movable TIP for doing DbRT climbing on a SRT system.

Does anyone know the history of the RADS? Did this guy invent it?

- Robert

 

[Tom Dunlap]

inventing and popularizing are different. Kind of like the history of the Blake's hitch.

The 2000 presentation is the earliest that I've seen anything like the RADS. I can't believe that someone else didn't come up with something similar though.

Tom

 

[NickfromWI]

Here's how I climbed a tree today...

 

[RescueMan]

Nick,

Do I understand correctly that you're climbing SRT on a rope hanging on a side-loaded carabiner? Why not use a running bowline to choker the crotch? And why not leave the throwline on the eye in order to pull the rope back down when you're done?

- Robert

 

[NickfromWI]

Yep, climbing on a side loaded 'biner. I weigh 155, so I think I'm in the clear.

I removed the throwline because I just used the single line for entering the tree. When I got to the TIP, I unclipped the line, ran it through a friction saver, then clipped it to me, along with my friciton hitch. It worked quite nicely!

love
nick

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

This drives me nuts.
Sideloading a carabiner is as wrong as wrong can be. You are never going to a pro in my eyes, when you practice what you know is wrong. Knowing you do things like this makes me worry about the splices or rope work you do, I won't hire you.
Our industry is so loaded down with mediocracy, and often times worse. Look at the cover of Bailys woodsman supply cataloge. There is a picture of a well known author and arborist/logger. What's he doing? A rec climb up a beautiful, mature, thin barked tree, with spikes on!
If you don't care about trees, how can you care for them? If you don't advocate safe working, how can you sell safety gear?

 

[NickfromWI]

Mike, how is it wrong.

If I can climb the tree like that, and a hundred other people can use the same system without fail, why is it wrong?

When "industry publications" offer suggestions* using the same technique, why is it wrong?

ANSI does not frown upon this practice. (By the way, my splices are done in accordance with ANSI).

Mike the only evidence I've seen of side-loading being dangerous is when dealing with HIGH loads, when loading across the gate, and people simply saying it shouldn't be done.

I am all ears....prove it.

love
nick




*See page 76 of '03 Sherrill catalog....sherrill IS an industry publication

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Mike,

Jerry B. offered an explanation of the Bailey cover on Treeb*zz a while ago. You could search on his name and pull up the thread. If I remember right, the pic was taken in about '86, a long time before throwlines and SRT had made a presence in arbo work.

I agree with you about side loading but not quite as vehemently.

The bounce from ascending can add a larger load on the TIP. At a minimum, double, and probably more. There really isn't a good reason to use a biner in a sideload situation when a running bowline or screw link would be better.

Tom

 

[murphy4trees]

Nick,
I AM with Mike on this one..... that's two in a row...
The rules are the rules for a reason... That reason is waiting for me to come home for dinner at the end of the day...

"figuring" you can "get away with" breaking the rules for whatever reason contradicts the whole new school philosophy. And in this situation there is no reasonable need.... you can easily replace the biner with a secure knot. Just put the other end of the climbing line through the ring of the throw ball, tie an overhand knot in the end of the climbing line and pull that end up first....

I readily admit I have broken the "rules" in the past by overloading lines past the SWL of 10%.... but only when there is a good reason ( and not life support lines)... I make the call when I judge the benefits far outweigh the risks... Here there is no need...

 

[NickfromWI]

Where is this a rule. So far, it seems it is just something that some people think is the way it should be.

When I tried this earlier today, I did it for a fun climb. Now, this system beats knots as far as efficiency is concerned. It is faster to climb up, flipline in, then clip that carabiner up there to the saddle, throw one the friction hitch, and off you go.

Now am not arguing that this is an acceptable method. I am looking as an angels advocate. :angel:

I'm looking for some proof here. If it's just people talking, then that can only be weighed so heavily.

love
nick

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

In those universal symbols for climbing gear, i believe you will commonly see a symbol for not letting a carabiner leverage/sideload on a rock etc.

i believe they are made to hang free and be pulled straight on. Sideloading up against a surface can pull at the wrong angle for the simple structrual design that is made to only support on 1 angle of pull, not to 'defend' itself against all others. So sidleloading pulls at an angle that is rated much lower than the straight angle it is calculated to hold. i think one of the ways it does this is by isolating one leg, then compounding that by not pulling along the axis of that leg. So the structure is essentially compromised very much.

i think additionally, laying up against a surface that was not flat, or shorter along the length of the carabiner and flat especially (a carabiner against a flat/flat surface longer than the carabiner would prolly be pulled straight/correct and not count in this?); that the load on the line would become leveraged/multiplied in the carabiner. Furthermore, being squeezed flat against the support would induce more load even in a bowline, so this force is higher than the load, then this increased force is fed into the leveraged carabiner position in this scenario.

So that, the danger is, the compromised carabiner, recieves a leveraged/multiplied x multiplied load at a still load, then loaded more with the dynamics of bounce and movement. i think that is burning the candle at both ends; and can get you into trouble much more quickly.

i think loading across the gate is yet a different issue; and with these aforementioned compromises i am visualizing weaknesses imbued into the strongest part of the carabiner.

Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
Mike,

Jerry B. offered an explanation of the Bailey cover on Treeb*zz a while ago.

I don't blame Jerry B., Bailey's used the photo which goes out to hundreds of thousands of eyes. I could see using the photo if there was some historical reference and bold explanation that this is no longer acceptable or even just lie and say it's a removal.

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
There really isn't a good reason to use a biner in a sideload situation when a running bowline or screw link would be better.

I agree, it's indefensible position to say it's only a little wrong so I'll continue doing it. Bragging about it on public forums where other impressionable young minds might expand it's use is much worse.
Just a few days ago RJS bragged about doing this very thing (side loading carabiners) when rigging smaller limbs out. Young Nick sees this and now he's climbing off this flawed system.

If you let one wrong piece into a system, then another, and another, they compound themselves.

To keep it opn topic, SRT puts bigger loads on the parts of the system, compared to doubled rope systems. Not that I would ever need a reason to do things correctly.

I see this as similar to the use of non-locking rope snaps, not staying tied in, spiking on trims, kicking brush into a chipper with your foot, etc..

I won't work with guys that ignore basic safety rules, period.

 

[murphy4trees]

Nick,
Good point... there may not be a specific "rule" in ANSI about not side loading biners, however it probably says something like "equipment to be used as per manufacturers recommendations. It is important to look to our elders for wisdom... How long have the rescue people and cavers etc... been using biners.... Do you think they would accept the "I only weigh 155" logic???

 

[NickfromWI]

When does the side loading become unsafe and begin so weaken the carabiner?

How much of a load do you have to put on it? Murph, you mention the cavers and mountaineers.... I've seen cavers, rock climbers and mountaineers do things that we'd be scared of. In rock climbing

What I'm saying is that carabiner is rated to about 5,000lbs. I weigh 155. If I did put 3x that load while footlocking, that'd be 620lbs. That's still better than a 10:1 safety ratio.

Tom, why is it okay with a screwlink? Because it's smaller?

In Sherrill, they offer the idea for use on large wood. So where is it okay and where is it not?



And young Mike, please don't think I'm bragging..."look at me...I don't need no stinking rules!" When I look at the facts, it seems like this is a safe practice. When Rocky talked about in regards to rigging branches out, I thought about forces created while swinging, miscalculating the weight of the piece, rope-guy not letting it run as smooth as you thought...things like this that lurk every corner waiting to make something go wrong. In this scenario, it's straight up with very little dynamic load, no swinging, no ground guy.

Could a person design a carabiner that IS designed to withstand that side pull? I think we need testing on this.

love
nick

ANSI Z133.1 8.7.5
Carabiners used in securing the arborist climbing line and/or the work positioning lanyard to the arborist climbing saddle shall be of the self-closing positive-locking type with a minimium tensile strength of 5000lbs. Standard one-quarter-turn, twistlock carabiners do not have a poisitive-locking mechanism and shall not be used.

 

[TheSurgeon]

A whole lot of whiners

You know, I read these post over and over and most of the time I am trying to figure out why 90% of the topics are about peoples feelings being hurt. Most climbers I know of don't take a whole lotta BS from anyone and get angry very easily, that's how it goes around here. How about keeping the subjects on arboriculture and getting rid of the pacifiers. This site is o.k. most of the time, but it's starting to turn into romper room fellas.......

 

[MasterBlaster]

Don't hold back, Surgeon!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Did you footlock/whatever straight up the tree?

 

[murphy4trees]

Nick asked "When does the side loading become unsafe and begin so weaken the carabiner?"

I really don't know.... Since I don't know for sure... I try not to side load my biners.... it happens from time to time accidentally... never on purpose...

This kind of reminds me of a conversation I had with a bucket operator doing storm work in Va... He wouldn't hear about wearing a safety lanyard while aloft.... mechanical failure, big wood going the wrong way and hitting the upper boom, branch grabbing him and dragging him out of the bucket..... nothing worked.... So i told him about ANSI regulations.... he just walked away.

 

[NickfromWI]

MB, That picture made me laugh!

In real life, it looked like a normal tree with a good leader and a nice spreading crown. I footlocked up to my TIP.

Next time I'll try to walk up the back side....it might be faster.

love
nick

Surgeon...who's whining?

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by murphy4trees
This kind of reminds me of a conversation I had with a bucket operator doing storm work in Va... He wouldn't hear about wearing a safety lanyard while aloft.... mechanical failure, big wood going the wrong way and hitting the upper boom, branch grabbing him and dragging him out of the bucket..... nothing worked.... So i told him about ANSI regulations.... he just walked away.

Murph, this is kindof what I'm getting at. Tell me about bad stories you've heard, regulations and guidelines telling us it's a bad idea....any factual evidence that would lead one to believe it IS bad and should be avoided.

Right now I'm not convinced. I've seen my 'biners get all twisted up while climbing trees and rocks. They always hold. Are they invincible??? NO! But I am far from the limits.

Your story is of someone who is ignorant, is faced with the right info, but then chooses to remain ignorant. I don't believe I am being an ignoramus here. I got Mike telling me don't do it because it shouldn't be done. Tom says use a quick-link/screw link.

I want to be educated. I want to know.

love
nick