OK.....Let's Get Into The Meat Of SRT !!!!

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Maas, can you see the light?


What was wrong with the VT on longer decents? Too much heat?

Just wondering, I never used a proper VT.



Carl
 
Originally posted by Mike Maas
Yes, locks down tight, hard to get to move again, and hot both on your ropes and fingers.
It all takes time to work out. There might be a hitch that works. The VT I tied had a bunch of loops(5 or 6) and three crosses.


I noticed that on the knots I tried. When I backed up the 8, I used a 6 coil prusik. It worked decently, but it would lock up occasionally, and it made huge amounts of heat, that toasted the cheap UT cord. :rolleyes:

Tommorrow I might try with a larger diameter cord and see what happens.

Carl
 
Mebbe use an ascender going up pushing your friction hitch?

Swapping an 8 for the ascender once you're up top could be rather breezy.

Jussa thought. -TM-
 
For ascends into a tree, I like to use a 12 ft. straight ladder. That will usually get me to the first branch of most trees. Once in the canopy, it is easy to climb up (most of the time). At a trade show I watched one of the vendors demostrating all these fancy devices and a guy from Texas told him, "I can have my groundman set my 28 ft. extension ladder against the tree and I'll be up and cutting before you even finish setting up." He was right.
 
i found these 3 versions of SRT for cavers:

Cave Prusiking

Frog Technique

RopeWalker


Only the prusik system, does not address the inefficiency of using energy to keep chest right over the lift of the legs. i think the chest is most leveraged weight to fall out of the line of movement. This is pointed out in "On Rope" etc.

i've tried to use that property to power hip thrusting with some success. Throwing back the leveraged force i fought to with to climb SRT a whiles back, trying to turn the chest weight into a positive

i was wondering if you SRT-ites have had problems, comments, solutions etc. about handling chest weight falling away from line. As usual i think the safest and most efficient way to move something is balanced.
 
I don't have a problem with falling away. I use the pantin and a CMi closed shell ascender. The TIP on my saddle is pretty close to my COB. Also I wrap my hand around the acender and keep constant pressure pushing in on the pin, no reason, just conveniant.


Carl
 
I SRT with a modified Texas system, this is similar to the prusik system, I believe; two handled ascenders, one with a pair of footloops and both lanyarded to my saddle's center clip point. I do have to counter the tendency to fall away from the ascent line. I keep one hand on each ascender as I climb, and by swinging my heels under my thighs, in line with the rope, before pushing upward and using some arm strength to keep my chest close to the rope I prevent the tendency to fall away. By keeping close as I climb, rather than letting myself fall away from the rope on each stroke and having to pull back in repeatedly, I don't seem to expend too much energy in the effort. I use a Ness saddle, which gives me the option of clipping in at two seperate points on center. The higher point places my body in a more upright position, thus I choose that to mount my ascender lanyards to. Changing over to rappel device, I clip to the lower point, which gives a more sitting position to very comfortably rap in.

While this is not as energy efficient as a ropewalker system, it is simple, compact, straightforward to use, and is easy to mount and fit. I have seldom needed to SRT over 100 feet, never over 150 at one whack, so for me the level of efficiency is satisfactory, and the benefits of this system outweigh that drawback. If you want to see a graphic of the system I use, check page 23 of the 2003 Sherrill catalog, bottom right. They duplicated my system pretty closely. Maybe one of you whiz-bangs can post a copy of it here, if anyone is interested.
 
Getting caught up on this thread has been interesting. Lots of good discussions and some head scratching too :) As I read through I typed up some running commentary.

There seems to be a real prejudice against change. This is human nature I quess. I bet we could transport back to the time
when Davey and Bartlett started to require their climbers to tie in instead of freeclimbing and hear all of the same lines. This was
back in the teens and twenties. Climbing is moving forward.

Why don't people trust mechanical climbing devices? Because they're metal? That's silly. The airplane I rode in last night is sure
complicated but it is the best thing going for long distance travel. How long would it take to walk from Dallas to Minneapolis?

Isolating limbs isn't always easy. Even if climbers used SRT to access the canopy and then changed over to DdRT they would
save a lot of time. I've climbed for close to thirty years and have spent the last five or so working the bugs out of SRT. I think
that I have an open, critical mind and look at all the pluses and minuses of change. The climbers that I've talked to that have
open minds have all understood the value of incorporating SRT into part of their climbing skills.

I made up a set of double headed Kong ascenders about five years before they made them from the factory. On mine, I had
only one handle, not the butterfly handles that Kong has made. The older, modular, Kong ascenders leant themselves to using
through bolts.

The nomenclature of SRT/DRT/DdRT came out of a discussion on the ISA forum several years ago. DdRT is when a single rope [or two tied together,effectively becoming one] are draped or doubled-over a limb and paired together for ascent. DRT uses two seperate ropes and anchor points. Arbos would call this double crotching.

Footlocking a doubled rope is sometimes easier for people. There is more rope to add friction to your grab. Once the climber
has their technique worked out they'll be able to FL a single just as easy.

There was a comment about the RADS being 2:1 and this wasn't efficient. Well, take a little time and look at a DdRT setup.
that is 2:1 ALL of the time. While you're stripping rope in and out, I'm moving around at twice the speed and effort. Certainly a
time/speed improvement there.

Over the weekend I played around a little with a friction hitch and slack tender for SRT. I think this is going to be a quest to find a cord/rope combination that works smoothly just like the quest for a split tail cord. There has got to be a combo that will grab and slide smoothly and not heat up so much.

Mike found one of the limitations of SRT. Since there is more rope in the system and a higher load at the TIP, there will be some rope movement. I've considered using a FC in thin barked trees if I thought that I might damage the bark. So far, I haven'r come across a tree where I've felt that I needed to do that. Hackberries in the spring will require a FC though.

Tom
 
Hitches for SRT

There are a number of hitches that have historically been used for ascending a single line (most of which have given way to mechanical ascenders). The hitches include the Bachman (which has been pictured), the Klemheist, the Kruzklem, the Prusik, and the French Prusik or Autobloc. A variation of the prusik which advances more easily is the 3-over-2 wrap, but it needs to be tied around your fingers and then slipped over the end of the climbing line.

Traditionally, SRT was done with prusiks because they grab the rope so reliably. But they can be buggers to slide after they've been loaded. And to work well, they have to be tied with cord of about 75% the cross-section of the host line.

The masters of SRT are vertical cavers who have to descend sometimes several hundred feet into a cave and then climb back out, often with a number of "re-belays" (intermediate anchors) and offsets. They have to perform very efficient technique and be able to pass knots and switch ropes in midstream, both in ascent and in rappel.

There are no ascending hitches for descending in SRT (the munter hitch is commonly used for rappel, but not for ascent). Some kind of rappel device is necessary, and it is necessary to know how to convert from ascent to rappel or visa versa while hanging on rope.

The best single source for information on SRT is the book On Rope published by the National Speleological Society.

- Robert
 
Re: Hitches for SRT

Originally posted by RescueMan
B]...There are no ascending hitches for descending in SRT (the munter hitch is commonly used for rappel, but not for ascent). Some kind of rappel device is necessary, and it is necessary to know how to convert from ascent to rappel or visa versa while hanging on rope....



Not true. It would be better to say that there are no commonly known ascending hitches for descending.

One thing that would help SRT really take off would be if people could try it out without having to drastically change how they do things now, no new gear, etc. If a person takes some time to find that ascending hitch that will allow them to descend safely on a single line, they can work through a tree with the same motions they are already used to (ie, pulling the tail of their rope while the slack tender advances the hitch).

One thing I know that helps for this is to use a fatter rope. I use a 5/16ths for DRT and close to half-inch for SRT (which I admit right now that I do not use exclusively...it's an "every now and then" thing right now. I'm still working out the kinks!). It also helps if you can acquire a "high tech" line with a high heat resistance. Vectran, technora, and nomex come to mind.

good luck!

love
nick
 
Robert,

I'm glad to see you taking part in this discussion. I've followed some of your responses on BCSAR for a while.

You're right, On Rope is a good source. Anyone interested in working rope needs to read that cover to cover. There is also a lot to be learned from discussion forums. This is where some of the details are worked out and shared.

Nick is right, there is a solution out there but it hasn't been found yet. In my head I can visualize what's needed but now I have to search for the right combination of tools to accomplish a two way system.

SRT does work in trees on an every day basis even though there are some people who can't see the advantages and uses.

Tom
 
Originally posted by Tom Dunlap


SRT does work in trees on an every day basis even though there are some people who can't see the advantages and uses.

Tom


taxi-driver-you-talkin-to-me-5000052.jpg




Its all good. :D
 
Butch,

You just happen to be the most vocal one in the room. I've talked with others who can't open up to other options. I've been advocating SRT for many years at competitions, trainings and conferences so I've heard most of the reasons for not using SRT. None of which really holds water :)

Tom
 
Re: Re: Hitches for SRT

Originally posted by NickfromWI
It also helps if you can acquire a "high tech" line with a high heat resistance. Vectran, technora, and nomex come to mind.

good luck!

love
nick

It's my experience that the heat resistant lines do not hold up to abrasion as well as some other fibers. There is added heat descending SRT, of course, but there is also a lot more friction.

How about using a combination of a mechanical device with a straight through rope feed and rope hitch? Like a positioner and a vt.
 
In "The Tree Climber's Companion" 2nd edition, Jeff Jepson makes the following admonitions:

(Page 49, in bold italics, in context of a static climbing system:) "Do not descend solely on the friction hitch; instead use a figure-8 descender."

(Page 86:) "Never use the Prusik knot, or any other friction hitch, as the sole means for descending when using a static climbing line system. The only exception is when using a dynamic climbing system."

Why does Jepson say you can't safely descend using only a friction hitch with a static climbing system?
 
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