OK, so maybe I don't always know...

[philoshop]

Several years ago I flew 'model' airplanes for a research project based out of a major nearby university. The guy who headed the project did extensive research into numerous 2-cycle oils because the engine attrition rate was killing his budget. That and he's a professor and research guy. Quite a character as well.
The planes we flew were about 55 pounds and 12 foot wingspan with a lot of aerodynamic drag due to the various attachments required for the research. They used 50 cc engines that were purpose-built for model aircraft, costing around $600 each with no muffler, but were being stressed beyond belief. WOT for 30 to 40 minutes at a crack on 95 degree days with a half hour rest in between flights, 5 to 6 times a day for a couple of weeks straight. Those poor motors were just screamin' all day long, day in and day out. I'd almost be hoping for an engine breakdown toward the end of the day just so I could get some rest. Not really, it's one of the best memories of my life, but it was hard work.
In the end, he used an Amsoil 50:1 product. I don't recall the exact one, but it'll come to me. His research is published somewhere, but his basic claim was that under those conditions he could expect 2 to 3 times the hours between teardowns and 2 to 3 times the overall life expectancy of the engine. I have no reason to doubt his findings. The work we were doing was time sensitive and required four aircraft aloft each flight. If one failed, they all came down and we started over with one of the 8 backups on the trailer, but none of the 35 to 40 support people on-site wanted that. So he found an oil that worked.

 

[naturelover]

Have told before, but I used the orange bottle Stihl oil in the FS-250 and always noticed oil spots on the starter cover (it sucked the air through it). Switching to motomix and the synthetic oil resulted in no oil spots on the cover.

I've since switched to 40:1 motomix, by adding oil to the motomix cans. Still no oil spots on the cover.

Even at 16:1 in the Gale outboard, the synthetic blend I run in it smokes less than I thought it would.


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk

 

[zogger]

Several years ago I flew 'model' airplanes for a research project based out of a major nearby university. The guy who headed the project did extensive research into numerous 2-cycle oils because the engine attrition rate was killing his budget. That and he's a professor and research guy. Quite a character as well.
The planes we flew were about 55 pounds and 12 foot wingspan with a lot of aerodynamic drag due to the various attachments required for the research. They used 50 cc engines that were purpose-built for model aircraft, costing around $600 each with no muffler, but were being stressed beyond belief. WOT for 30 to 40 minutes at a crack on 95 degree days with a half hour rest in between flights, 5 to 6 times a day for a couple of weeks straight. Those poor motors were just screamin' all day long, day in and day out. I'd almost be hoping for an engine breakdown toward the end of the day just so I could get some rest. Not really, it's one of the best memories of my life, but it was hard work.
In the end, he used an Amsoil 50:1 product. I don't recall the exact one, but it'll come to me. His research is published somewhere, but his basic claim was that under those conditions he could expect 2 to 3 times the hours between teardowns and 2 to 3 times the overall life expectancy of the engine. I have no reason to doubt his findings. The work we were doing was time sensitive and required four aircraft aloft each flight. If one failed, they all came down and we started over with one of the 8 backups on the trailer, but none of the 35 to 40 support people on-site wanted that. So he found an oil that worked.

That's quite interesting, and it sure sounds like it was a fun project!

I have been waiting for those copter drone things to drop down in price, eventually I would like one with a vid cam, just to run an aerial perimeter check on the farm I work and live at.

 

[philoshop]

The price has come way down on most of the smaller ones, and they're getting easier to fly as well. Check out the little 'quad copters'.

 

[Whitespider]

You are definitely sobering up.

Now you've gone way too far
*

 

[Whitespider]

Have you ever been encapsulated, suspended, broke down or expelled?

Not that I remember... everyone loves me

 

[Ronaldo]

Thanks for the advice. I will keep that in mind. I will do some research and may take it back.

If you use the opti-2 packets it comes out to 71:1. I will run mine at 40:1. My previous dealer (echo/husqy) pushed it hard; he sent everything out the door with opti-2. My current dealer (stihl/exmark) is pushing the stuff now...I am not sure of the exact stipulations, but current dealer is offering 4 yr warranty if you use opti-2 in any Stihl 2-stroke and the opti-4 in 4-stroke equipment. The Opti company backs the warranty. They have flyers on almost every piece of equipment in the store.

I used the opti-2 a couple of years ago at 71:1 in a couple gallons without problems. I didn't know it was 71:1 at the time, never paid attention to the amount of oil, just followed the instructions. Then I found AS and that all changed. I mix everything at 40:1 now.

I been using Opti-2 for 10 or so years now with no problems and using it at the 70:1 rate because I didnt realize thats what it mixed up as and never did the math for myself.
Now for the last several months have been mixing at 50:1 and still really like the product.

 

[Whitespider]

Yeah, I figured someone had to be using it or they wouldn't still be selling it.
I do have a question though...
If it worked, with no problems, at 70:1, for 10 years... why would you start mixing it at 50:1 ??
*

 

[GVSII]

Just my opinion... but...
If you mix it (any oil) richer than what the label says... you're making a mistake.
And over-rich mix, even mixing a 50:1 oil at 40:1, will actually cause the engine to run hotter, force the engine to work harder because of power loss, and increase the chances of pre-ignition and/or detonation... it don't take very darn much extra to be a problem. The only time you should mix "rich" is during a short break-in period when the engine won't be worked hard or run at full throttle. I will be just a bit careful here and say I don't know for positive that's exactly the same "rule-of-thumb" with synthetics... but at the same time, I can't see how it would be different either.
*

I disagree.I lived and worked on eastern Long Island,NYS, for 30 years.Many of my friends were commertial fisherman and nearly all used 2 stroke outboards in their work.Every one of them went a little heavy on the oil mix.Those engines worked as hard as their owners did but they lasted a long time.The only time they wern't working hard was when they were idleing in neutral or when they were shut down at the dock.

 

[Ronaldo]

Yeah, I figured someone had to be using it or they wouldn't still be selling it.
I do have a question though...
If it worked, with no problems, at 70:1, for 10 years... why would you start mixing it at 50:1 ??
*

Scared me a bit, I guess, and wanted a bit of insurance.

 

[zogger]

The price has come way down on most of the smaller ones, and they're getting easier to fly as well. Check out the little 'quad copters'.

thanks, I will

ha! there's enough junk kicking around here to make one from cessna parts....wonder if the boss would notice...hmm..hahahahaha!

 

[Whitespider]

I disagree... friends were commertial fisherman and nearly all used 2 stroke outboards... Every one of them went a little heavy on the oil mix. Those engines... lasted a long time...

That's like a non-argument...
What's a long time?? Longer than what?? Where's the yardstick??

I always find the reasoning for "extra" oil in two-cycle mix both baffling and comical at the same time. I mean, the manufacturer develops the product, extensively tests it, and prints the instructions for use right on the container... but the guy opening the container knows more then they do?? Have you ever seen what adding "extra" bleach to the laundry does to your clothes?? Ever witnessed what "extra" fertilizer does to your grass?? Do you put an "extra" quart of oil in your pickup?? How 'bout your medications... do you take what the doctor orders, plus a little "extra"?? It sort'a reminds me of Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor... if a little is good, then more has to be "more better"... ridiculous. I guess my wife should be putting "extra" flour in the bread, and "extra" salt in all her baking. I'm gonna' start putting "extra" air in all the tires, and "extra" chlorine in the pool. Heck, I'm gonna' head out to shop after this post and build a transformer; if 115 volts is good at the outlets, a little "extra" should be better, 150 volts has to make everything run "more better"... correct??

It's flat silliness.
An engine needs a sufficient mount of lubrication, anything over that is no help at all... in fact, it's most likely detrimental. No doubt the manufacturer has already built a little "cushion" in the label instructions anyway. "Extra" oil in two-cycle fuel reduces octane level, reduces the cooling effect (heat sink properties), reduces the volatility/vaporization, reduces the amount of gasoline entering the engine, increases fuel viscosity (it flows slower)... in short, it ain't all that great of an idea. If you believe you need "extra" lubrication you ain't gonna' get it by adding "extra" oil... but switching to a high performance oil, and using it per the label, may gain you some "extra" lubrication, depending.

If ya' wanna' run a 40:1 mix... then buy a 40:1 oil...
If ya' wanna' run a 32:1 mix... then buy a 32:1 oil...
But if ya' buy a 50:1 oil... then mix the damn stuff at 50:1... anything else is flat ridiculous.
*

 

[KenJax Tree]

Anyone ever drink "extra" beer? The Dr says only 2 a day is ok.

 

[zogger]

That's like a non-argument...
What's a long time?? Longer than what?? Where's the yardstick??

I always find the reasoning for "extra" oil in two-cycle mix both baffling and comical at the same time. I mean, the manufacturer develops the product, extensively tests it, and prints the instructions for use right on the container... but the guy opening the container knows more then they do?? Have you ever seen what adding "extra" bleach to the laundry does to your clothes?? Ever witnessed what "extra" fertilizer does to your grass?? Do you put an "extra" quart of oil in your pickup?? How 'bout your medications... do you take what the doctor orders, plus a little "extra"?? It sort'a reminds me of Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor... if a little is good, then more has to be "more better"... ridiculous. I guess my wife should be putting "extra" flour in the bread, and "extra" salt in all her baking. I'm gonna' start putting "extra" air in all the tires, and "extra" chlorine in the pool. Heck, I'm gonna' head out to shop after this post and build a transformer; if 115 volts is good at the outlets, a little "extra" should be better, 150 volts has to make everything run "more better"... correct??

It's flat silliness.
An engine needs a sufficient mount of lubrication, anything over that is no help at all... in fact, it's most likely detrimental. No doubt the manufacturer has already built a little "cushion" in the label instructions anyway. "Extra" oil in two-cycle fuel reduces octane level, reduces the cooling effect (heat sink properties), reduces the volatility/vaporization, reduces the amount of gasoline entering the engine, increases fuel viscosity (it flows slower)... in short, it ain't all that great of an idea. If you believe you need "extra" lubrication you ain't gonna' get it by adding "extra" oil... but switching to a high performance oil, and using it per the label, may gain you some "extra" lubrication, depending.

If ya' wanna' run a 40:1 mix... then buy a 40:1 oil...
If ya' wanna' run a 32:1 mix... then buy a 32:1 oil...
But if ya' buy a 50:1 oil... then mix the damn stuff at 50:1... anything else is flat ridiculous.
*

I think a lot of the newer equipment where they say use 50 to 1 is EPA jazz. I was talking to my local wrench, he tears down engines all the time, and he just slap do not like 50:1 in anything.

I know for my stuff, 50:1 in summer heat wasn't cutting it, went to 40:1 does better, works pretty good, at 32:1 I get *perceived* no yardstick mo powah.

 

[CTYank]

I think a lot of the newer equipment where they say use 50 to 1 is EPA jazz. I was talking to my local wrench, he tears down engines all the time, and he just slap do not like 50:1 in anything.

I know for my stuff, 50:1 in summer heat wasn't cutting it, went to 40:1 does better, works pretty good, at 32:1 I get *perceived* no yardstick mo powah.

What some guy likes or dislikes is his business. What matters is WHY? I've run some old Poulans, with bare aluminum bores, hard, for years, on 50:1. No mechanical problems, engine innards looked like new 25 yrs later. At 50:1 there's still a significant flow of oil going through the engine- I forget who figured it out, but the oil-consumption rate was more than for an old British sports-car.

One thing you are certifiably getting with more oil in the mix is linearly increased particulate matter. You can't see it, as it's carried deep into your lungs transporting the soluble organic fraction of polyaromatic hydrocarbons- a powerful carcinogen. Double the oil, double that poo. Yet another reason for strato-scavenging, and even cat mufflers. Presuming you like living.

It's interesting too that some folks recommend 32:1 for preservation of crank bearings. They're anti-friction bearings. They can be run dry, and ball/roller bearings do not like excessive lube because of fluid friction. Lube just keeps their cages and seals shiny.

 

[zogger]

What some guy likes or dislikes is his business. What matters is WHY? I've run some old Poulans, with bare aluminum bores, hard, for years, on 50:1. No mechanical problems, engine innards looked like new 25 yrs later. At 50:1 there's still a significant flow of oil going through the engine- I forget who figured it out, but the oil-consumption rate was more than for an old British sports-car.

One thing you are certifiably getting with more oil in the mix is linearly increased particulate matter. You can't see it, as it's carried deep into your lungs transporting the soluble organic fraction of polyaromatic hydrocarbons- a powerful carcinogen. Double the oil, double that poo. Yet another reason for strato-scavenging, and even cat mufflers. Presuming you like living.

It's interesting too that some folks recommend 32:1 for preservation of crank bearings. They're anti-friction bearings. They can be run dry, and ball/roller bearings do not like excessive lube because of fluid friction. Lube just keeps their cages and seals shiny.

First I have heard of that for the crank bearings.

 

[zogger]

What some guy likes or dislikes is his business. What matters is WHY? I've run some old Poulans, with bare aluminum bores, hard, for years, on 50:1. No mechanical problems, engine innards looked like new 25 yrs later. At 50:1 there's still a significant flow of oil going through the engine- I forget who figured it out, but the oil-consumption rate was more than for an old British sports-car.

One thing you are certifiably getting with more oil in the mix is linearly increased particulate matter. You can't see it, as it's carried deep into your lungs transporting the soluble organic fraction of polyaromatic hydrocarbons- a powerful carcinogen. Double the oil, double that poo. Yet another reason for strato-scavenging, and even cat mufflers. Presuming you like living.

It's interesting too that some folks recommend 32:1 for preservation of crank bearings. They're anti-friction bearings. They can be run dry, and ball/roller bearings do not like excessive lube because of fluid friction. Lube just keeps their cages and seals shiny.

Oh ya, standing in a cloud of effluvium. Yep, I am hip and aware of that, try to run my saws tuned well and watch the breeze and stand accordingly so it blows the other way. I also *really* like my battery saw, and I am very interested in upgrading to the next generation more powerful/better battery saws whenever they might hit the market, i.e. something that could run a 20" bar with 3/8ths chain.

 

[mainewoods]

Anyone ever drink "extra" beer? The Dr says only 2 a day is ok.

I only drink 2 beers a day.

 

[CTYank]

Oh ya, standing in a cloud of effluvium. Yep, I am hip and aware of that, try to run my saws tuned well and watch the breeze and stand accordingly so it blows the other way. I also *really* like my battery saw, and I am very interested in upgrading to the next generation more powerful/better battery saws whenever they might hit the market, i.e. something that could run a 20" bar with 3/8ths chain.

IMO, best to cut the carcinogens at the source, as reasonably possible. Big reason I like strato-scavenged engines, or in some cases cat-cleaning, and oil concentrations at or near spec. Then, with carb adjusted near optimum, you can focus on the nearby, near-term hazards- saw chain and falling timber. There have been times, making multiple cuts in a ~20" stem in dead air, that you really appreciate engine exhaust that is not an obvious biohazard.

Lotsa luck with that electric saw dream. To be marketable, it'd have to appeal to folks like the majority here. No chance, really, with such greatly reduced noise level. No "Tim Allen" appeal, and no option to do a MM. How 'bout an optional modular noise generator? I'm thinking a powerful battery saw might be capable of serious work if the batteries were in a backpack. Hard to compete with the energy density of gasoline, so you gotta go bigger. (For homeowners, Greenworks 24v would suffice.)

On 2nd thought, how about a back-portable charging station to recharge batteries that are mounted on the saw? Then, if we can extend battery life- # of charge/discharge cycles per lifetime, and make battery recycling cost efficient, recoil starters may disappear.

Returning you now to your regular broadcast.

 

[zogger]

IMO, best to cut the carcinogens at the source, as reasonably possible. Big reason I like strato-scavenged engines, or in some cases cat-cleaning, and oil concentrations at or near spec. Then, with carb adjusted near optimum, you can focus on the nearby, near-term hazards- saw chain and falling timber. There have been times, making multiple cuts in a ~20" stem in dead air, that you really appreciate engine exhaust that is not an obvious biohazard.

Lotsa luck with that electric saw dream. To be marketable, it'd have to appeal to folks like the majority here. No chance, really, with such greatly reduced noise level. No "Tim Allen" appeal, and no option to do a MM. How 'bout an optional modular noise generator? I'm thinking a powerful battery saw might be capable of serious work if the batteries were in a backpack. Hard to compete with the energy density of gasoline, so you gotta go bigger. (For homeowners, Greenworks 24v would suffice.)

On 2nd thought, how about a back-portable charging station to recharge batteries that are mounted on the saw? Then, if we can extend battery life- # of charge/discharge cycles per lifetime, and make battery recycling cost efficient, recoil starters may disappear.

Returning you now to your regular broadcast.

Stihl has the battery belt. It's also not that hard to tote extra batteries.

Guess I am different from most guys, I don't like loud. I appreciate some tools are loud, I mean, I work on a farm and all, but quiet is nice. I wouldn't mind a decent electric truck, either.

One reason I like hand splitting,as well, steel into wood is not that loud..