OK, so maybe I don't always know...

[naturelover]

Remember, not all outboards are the same.

My '62 Gale 5hp (Johnson) has sleeved bushings for crank bearings, not rollers. Running it at 50:1 would probably not be recommended. That's why it gets run at 16:1.

Apparently roller bearings were installed in later models, and the oil mix recommendations were changed to 40:1 or 50:1.


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[Whitespider]

Remember, not all outboards are the same.
My '62 Gale 5hp (Johnson) has sleeved bushings for crank bearings, not rollers. Running it at 50:1 would probably not be recommended. That's why it gets run at 16:1.

Now you're talkin' a whole different animal.
Absolutely not‼ A bronze (or babbitt) sleeve-bearing outboard engine should not be run with a 50:1 mix. It shouldn't be run with any two-cycle oil, of any sort, at any ratio... especially synthetics‼ All two-cycle oils contain detergents... and the last thing you want to do is wash-out those sleeve bearings. Most of those old engines called for 30w non-detergent motor oil, mixed at anywhere from 10:1 to 25:1. Even the current TWC oils (TWC-3) contain some detergents and should not be used in sleeve-bearing outboards (if I remember correctly TWC-2 did not contain detergent and was safe in sleeve-bearing engines). Your only viable option is 30w non-detergent motor oil mixed at manufacturer recommendation (typically printed or molded) somewhere on the unit or fuel cap.

OH... And no friggin' ethanol of any amount... EVER‼
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[Whitespider]

Oh... and guess what else??
The damn Harley Golf Cart broke the two top rings last Saturday
Piston and cylinder look fine, almost new (other than where the ring pieces bounced around on the piston top); not a single sign of overheating, lack of lubrication, pre-ignition or detonation... just two broken rings in an otherwise pristine cylinder. Heck, the piston skirt looks just like it came from the box.
It's a damn puzzle... not a single shred of evidence to indicate what causes the thing to break rings every year or so... and with it as clean as it is in there (using the synthetic oil), it's even easier to see there ain't no evidence
The only thing I can think of is, over time, the aluminum piston gets hot-then-cold-then-hot... expands-then-shrinks-then-expands... and the pressed-in ring alignment pins eventually get loose and fall out... then the rings rotate and catch on one of the ports. That's really the only thing that makes any sense.
Anyway, I'm gettin' really fast at replacing the piston... 30 minutes tops (and that's with a beer break).
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[GVSII]

Oh... and guess what else??
The damn Harley Golf Cart broke the two top rings last Saturday
Piston and cylinder look fine, almost new (other than where the ring pieces bounced around on the piston top); not a single sign of overheating, lack of lubrication, pre-ignition or detonation... just two broken rings in an otherwise pristine cylinder. Heck, the piston skirt looks just like it came from the box.
It's a damn puzzle... not a single shred of evidence to indicate what causes the thing to break rings every year or so... and with it as clean as it is in there (using the synthetic oil), it's even easier to see there ain't no evidence
The only thing I can think of is, over time, the aluminum piston gets hot-then-cold-then-hot... expands-then-shrinks-then-expands... and the pressed-in ring alignment pins eventually get loose and fall out... then the rings rotate and catch on one of the ports. That's really the only thing that makes any sense.
Anyway, I'm gettin' really fast at replacing the piston... 30 minutes tops (and that's with a beer break).
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Did you not say in the recent past something about disableing the govener and running that engine at near twice rated RPM?

 

[flotek]

I own a company that specializes in high performance atvs sleds dirt bikes and pwc ..I've built hundreds of two cycle engines and seen what good oil does and what bad oil does . Based on my years experience tearing into them I do not recommend amsoil for two strokes . Amsoil 4 stroke oil is okay but their saber and dominator are garbage. . Most all the testimonials I've seen on amsoil are either A : by people who sell amsoil. Or B by people who visually inspected the bore piston and head and pleased to see no buildup . Oil is what keeps your engine together it's the blood . Running just gas without oil would make your top end look good too but obviously would be detrimental to it's longevity . Seen many smoked cranks by amsoil users and lots of unburnt synthetic slime in the transfer ports too . I could go on and on about oils but to be brief ,Amsoil has a high flash point which is only good at high rpm for extended run time at low rpm or variable rpm it does not burn and loads up after the engine is shut down the resulting gunk slithers back done into your lower end waiting to spit and sputter during your next start up and remember less oil is hard on Your crank bearings( it's the only lubrication they are going to get ) less oil means more friction weather it's synthetic or organic. .. so running high ratios is going to make less power and have higher friction . Friction is bad in a 2 stroke the higher the level the more wear and more heat a 2 cycle loses over 30% of it's potential power by friction alone ... Klotz techniplate is the best oil money can buy and has a higher btu rating than gas which makes more power it is semi synthetic and also contains castor which bonds to iron bore walls and protects from scuffing . I'll confidently put that in 6,000$ race engines on methanol and gas and it's awesome stuff ..Well That was my 2 cents take it for what it's worth .ive won numerous track records using klotz in all my race bikes

 

[Whitespider]

Did you not say in the recent past...

Yes... I did.
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[Whitespider]

I own a company that specializes in high performance atvs sleds dirt bikes and pwc... Amsoil 4 stroke oil is okay but their saber and dominator are garbage...

That sounds like a fun business to be in (at least when the headaches of ownership subsided ).
I'm not using Saber or Dominator in the cart, I'm using the plain-jane(?), 50:1 Interceptor... is there something I should know about it??
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[Mike from Maine]

That sounds like a fun business to be in (at least when the headaches of ownership subsided ).
I'm not using Saber or Dominator in the cart, I'm using the plain-jane(?), 50:1 Interceptor... is there something I should know about it??
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Yeah run it at 40:1

 

[Whitespider]

Yeah run it at 40:1

The manual calls for 80:1...
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[Mike from Maine]

The manual calls for 80:1...
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You're running it at twice the rpm...

 

[GrassGuerilla]

Interesting that most of the rest of the world uses and recommends 40:1 or even 25:1? 50:1 is pure EPA crap and has to do specifically with emissions, not a damn thing to do with perceived engine longevity. Also, chainsaws, golf carts and boat motors have little in common. Apples, oranges and pineapples.

 

[Whitespider]

50:1 is pure EPA crap...

Believe me, I ain't one to defend the EPA... I disagree with even the very existence of the EPA.
But... 50:1 two cycle oil was common long before the EPA had anything to do with it.
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[GrassGuerilla]

But... 50:1 two cycle oil was common long before the EPA had anything to do with it.
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Link please?

 

[Whitespider]

Link please?

Link to what?? Heck man, I'm just going on memory.
When did the EPA start regulating small engine/OPE emissions?? The late 90's?? During the Clinton administration??
Mix ratios of 50:1 were common in the mid 80's.
My 1974 Harley Davidson golf cart, with a Kohler 2-stroke, calls for 80:1, the EPA was still wearing diapers when it was built... Harley started selling those carts in 1963 recommending an 80:1 mix ratio.
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[Deleted member 83629]

my ez-go 2 stroke cart says 70:1

 

[steved]

What problem?? I'm not having any problem.
And I don't believe it's fair to say "Stihl doesn't fuss about meeting current 2-stroke oil specs much"... HP Super (black bottle, synthetic/dino blend) is JASO FD/ISO L-EGD certified.
You do realize that the only significant difference between FB/EGB, FC/EGC, and FD/EGD is the emissions? Supposedly, on a scale of 0-100, FB/EGB is less than 5 points lower in lubricity than the other two (in the engines, and with the oils tested). Stihl claims their "HP Ultra" (JASO FB) full synthetic is a better oil than the "HP Super" (JASO FD) blend in both lubrication and engine cleaning, yet the "Ultra" is only JASO FB certified (same as orange bottle HP)... why is that?? Well, I have no way of knowing for sure... but my guess is Stihl couldn't care any less about paying the Japanese to "re-certify" every time they come up with a new spec. Anything with a FB/EGB certification is light-years ahead of anything we had a couple decades ago... and I couldn't give any less of a crap about emissions or biodegradability.

http://www.dhequipment.com/Stihl_info/WhyBuyOilScreen.pdf

I wouldn't get too hung-up on oil certifications until you understand exactly what they are, and what they actually mean... especially the actual differences between individual certifications. The only significant difference between FB/EGB and FC/EGC is the visible smoke (in the engines tested)... and heck, that will change from engine-to-engine (yeah, exhaust restricted/cat muffler EPA engines tend to dislike smoke). The difference between FC/EGC and FD/EGD is nothing more than the level of detergency... the merits of which is questionable (besides, it ain't needed if the engine is tuned properly). Lubricity and initial torque requirements are identical for FB/EGB, FC/EGC, and FD/EGD. Personally I wouldn't give a lead penny for what FC/EGC or FD/EGD gives me over FB/EGB. But maybe the new idiot-proof engines (without chokes or carb adjustment screws ) need idiot-proof oil
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When I bought my MS391 several years ago, I was given an extra year of warranty because I purchased a six-pack of Stihl Ultra oil. Now, that doesn't mean they weren't simply using this as a marketing tactic to push their "best" oil into the market at the time? Their Ultra is all I run in my equipment, even my Homelite POS saw and Husqvarna Weed Trimmer that both call for something like 32:1 and/or 40:1. Its mainly because I could care less about the latter because they are cheap, but it also allows me a single mix.

One other point is that just because a certification is newer, doesn't mean it is any better for the equipment...the diesel world went through this several times, first with the ULSD designation which caused headaches and then the updated CJ-4 oils that when along with them. The ULSD caused issues in older equipment (leaks and shorter life) because the lubricity was degraded during the processing, and the CJ-4 had less anti-wear compounds in it because it poison the catalytic converters they started installing. Nothing about equipment longevity, everything about air quality.

I'll stir the pot more! I know at least husky says to run 25:1 for milling in australia, have seen those guys comment on that several times now. Don't know what stihl recommends for milling.

Oh, all the chinese two stroke stuff you see, all of it I have seen advertised is 25:1.

My guess is that it is likely because the manufacturer can't be guaranteed the equipment will get oil that meets any kind of specification. Hey, the API is the American Petroleum Institute...not the Canadian. Sorta like the GM dexos1 specification that GM is pushing on all their car buyers...if they can't be assured that oil standards are the same worldwide, then they will set one themselves to ensure they aren't liable for a batch of warranty work because of substandard lubricants being used in their product. And getting back to your original comment, a lot of good, name brand oils aren't getting the dexos1 certification because it costs money. The same with the boutique synthetics (Amsoil is the most notable) that "meets or exceeds" certification XYZ, but isn't actually certified...its because that certification process costs them each time and annually.

Not to mention the USEPA can only dictate what is done here, they can't dictate what is done in Australia.

 

[GrassGuerilla]

I'm a firm believer in following the label... it says, "Use as injection oil or 50:1 premix..."
So... I mix it 50:1.


There's more than one AMSOIL two-stroke oil... are you talkin' 'bout all of 'em?? That seems a bit too "general" don't ya' think??
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Talkin' 'bout two-cycle mix oil in this one.

Quick history...

1. In many threads I've stated I see no need for synthetic oils... It ain't that I recommend against 'em, just that I see no need.
2. We have an old '74 Harley Davidson two-cycle golf cart that gets used as a utility vehicle, neighborhood run-a-bout, and woodlot toy... with the governor removed and the abuse it receives, I put a set of rings or piston in it near every year.
3. Last time I put a piston in the cart was over a year ago... late summer 2012. At that time I switched two-cycle oil and started using AMSOIL Interceptor full synthetic; I figured what the heck, it's worth a shot and it only cost a couple bucks more than what I was

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Is that in the manual? Pick one please.

 

[Whitespider]

Is that in the manual? Pick one please.

Pick one what?? What does any of that have to do with the manual... any manual??
I said, "I'm a firm believer in following the label" (talkin' 'bout two-cycle mix oil). How does any of what you quoted vary from the oil container label instructions??
It seems to me your lookin' for, or tryin' to create, an inconsistency in my posts that simply ain't there... but I'm not catchin'-on to the motive yet.
Ax to grind maybe??
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[GrassGuerilla]

No axe Spidey. No agenda. Sorry if I came off that way. For some reason I found that funny. Inconsistant is a label I'd never try to pin on you. I appreciate your posts.

 

[Whitespider]

No axe Spidey. No agenda.

Damn... I was hopin' for a slightly heated (but friendly) back 'n' forth
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