OSHA is asking for YOUR input!

[Philbert]

Lots of comments on safety rules and regulations. Now OSHA is asking for YOUR input (see below). If YOU do not respond, then WHO will be making the regulations on your work?

Whatever your level of experience, or what your perspectives are, if you really believe in them, please respond to the following request. This is your chance for input on regulations, rather than just complaining about them later. If you really feel strongly, copy your comments to your Congressional Representative and Senators.

-------------------------

"OSHA Publishes Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Tree Care Operations

OSHA is accepting public comments on an Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking addressing tree care operations. The agency is requesting data, information and comments on effective measures to control hazards and prevent injuries. For more information on the proposal and details on how to submit comments, refer to the Sept. 18 Federal Register notice. Comments must be submitted by Dec. 17, 2008."

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER&p_id=21136

---------------------------


Philbert

 

[ropensaddle]

Lots of comments on safety rules and regulations. Now OSHA is asking for YOUR input (see below). If YOU do not respond, then WHO will be making the regulations on your work?

Whatever your level of experience, or what your perspectives are, if you really believe in them, please respond to the following request. This is your chance for input on regulations, rather than just complaining about them later. If you really feel strongly, copy your comments to your Congressional Representative and Senators.

-------------------------

"OSHA Publishes Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Tree Care Operations

OSHA is accepting public comments on an Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking addressing tree care operations. The agency is requesting data, information and comments on effective measures to control hazards and prevent injuries. For more information on the proposal and details on how to submit comments, refer to the Sept. 18 Federal Register notice. Comments must be submitted by Dec. 17, 2008."

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER&p_id=21136

---------------------------


Philbert

Ehhhhhhh like don't they already have enough?:monkey:
I am all about safety don't get me wrong it is just regulation
that makes me fuzzy.

 

[Nailsbeats]

If I don't call, I also won't be responsible for a BS rule. Don't blame me, I didn't vote. If they want my input they can call me, I'm sure they can get my number.

 

[ropensaddle]

Ok I am going to offer a suggestion use a seasoned climber
for the osha rep. Too many non climbers are ruling the roost
the way it is! All tree management positions should go to veterans
of the profession instead of whatever! I went to an osha meeting
the last company I worked for and we talked about extension cords and scaffolds for 3 hours, when we were supposed to be there for tree work!
So much emphasis is put on ppe,traffic control etc. they assume the men
know their job and some do but some are green. The instructors should
be very seasoned not just book learned imo so that they actually know
what the subject matter consists of! These positions need to go to people
that have done this work for many years and age is starting to make a
differance in their performance.

 

[rbtree]

Don't know if any of you heard about the 100% worthless, BS, and ludicrous directive that OSHA put in force as of mid June. The TCIA people were enraged, and went to bat for the industry in a big way.Hats off to Peter Gersteburger, other TCIA folks, and the congressmen who essentially told OSHA to shove it. At first, the fat balding desk jockeys balked, and refused to rescind the garbage. But they relented, and came out with a much improved directive a month ago...as they wiped the egg off their fat faces..

These idiots, you know, are paid by our taxes, and they come up with total nonsense. Good thing the new rules are better...but they are still temporary, while they work on the final guidelines.....which, with TCIA, and our input, should be pretty good.

The link to the first directive can be found at da Buz z....but the newest one was too large to link to, or so Peter said. He'll email it to ya....just go to the TCIA site and find his contact info.....

 

[lxt]

MMmmm rules and reg`s!!! well now that every grass cutter/landscaper/unemployed mill worker/etc... wants to become a tree service, we all gotta wonder why all the accidents and fatalities? duh!!

well lets start with illegals.....no proper training, employers(shady ones) use for the cheap labor, cant speak english...so no communicato!, etc..etc.. this is a big issue in certain parts of the country, however most will argue that the labor pool has shrunk & americans just dont want to work these jobs..LOL!

next; too many entering the field with little or no training, often its no training! and the end result............injury or death!! most of us with commonsense trained for a while before going at it self employed!! I see people on this site asking for climbing gear suggestions and should I buy a bucket....."starting a new biz" here are the idiots screwing up the trade as we once new it.

No experience but we got a loan and bought lots of equipment, we look professional!!! but have no skill, lets hire skilled people and pay as little as possible, but wait.....people with no skill are cheaper!! yeah! we`ll hire them and tell them what to do......how hard can it be? its just tree work!!

shame this is the mentality found all too often in new biz & others wanting to start a tree serv. which jams us all!!


LXT..........

 

[ropensaddle]

MMmmm rules and reg`s!!! well now that every grass cutter/landscaper/unemployed mill worker/etc... wants to become a tree service, we all gotta wonder why all the accidents and fatalities? duh!!

well lets start with illegals.....no proper training, employers(shady ones) use for the cheap labor, cant speak english...so no communicato!, etc..etc.. this is a big issue in certain parts of the country, however most will argue that the labor pool has shrunk & americans just dont want to work these jobs..LOL!

next; too many entering the field with little or no training, often its no training! and the end result............injury or death!! most of us with commonsense trained for a while before going at it self employed!! I see people on this site asking for climbing gear suggestions and should I buy a bucket....."starting a new biz" here are the idiots screwing up the trade as we once new it.

No experience but we got a loan and bought lots of equipment, we look professional!!! but have no skill, lets hire skilled people and pay as little as possible, but wait.....people with no skill are cheaper!! yeah! we`ll hire them and tell them what to do......how hard can it be? its just tree work!!

shame this is the mentality found all too often in new biz & others wanting to start a tree serv. which jams us all!!


LXT..........

+1 customer many times sets the stage for disaster by being chinchy
and hiring substandard help.

 

[capetrees]

With so many variables on every job, how can regulations be establiched to regulate this industry? Most of the rules we use come from common sense. What can they regulate on a consistant basis? I understand the rules in place for other industries such as the building trades and workplace safety. those are areas that are controlled like wearing hardhats, steel toed shoes/boots, blade guards on woodworking saws, etc. How are they going to regulate what we do? Certain rope sizes are allowable? Only guys that aren't fat can climb? No more that two feet out on a pine limb but 8 feet on an oak limb is considered safe? Bucket can't be more than such and such a degree above plane to be considered safe? How many more varialbes are there? Absolute nonsense.

 

[Philbert]

With so many variables on every job, how can regulations be establiched to regulate this industry? Most of the rules we use come from common sense. What can they regulate on a consistant basis? I understand the rules in place for other industries such as the building trades and workplace safety. those are areas that are controlled like wearing hardhats, steel toed shoes/boots, blade guards on woodworking saws, etc. How are they going to regulate what we do? . . .

Not picking on Capetrees, but carping here won't be as effective as sending them to the official record (first post).

Tell them what won't work.

But also tell them what will. People are getting hurt in this business and that is what drives these regulations.

Do you think that chaps, helmets and safety glasses should be required? Can you tell THEM reasons why they shouldn't be required?

A lot of comments on training. Should there be training requirements for tree trimming companies? Or not? What should it be and who should teach it?

Several comments on tree services ripping off workers and using unskilled labor - could they do this if that had to have a 'qualified' person on certain types of jobs? Should commercial companies allow employees to work alone?

It feels good to vent here, but the people in Washington can't do anything that makes practical sense if they don't hear from the guys in the trees and the ones trying to run legit tree services.

If the regulators don't hear from you, then 'safety chain' for everyone might seem like a good idea . . . Help them make good choices.

Philbert

 

[ropensaddle]

Not picking on Capetrees, but carping here won't be as effective as sending them to the official record (first post).

Tell them what won't work.

But also tell them what will. People are getting hurt in this business and that is what drives these regulations.

Do you think that chaps, helmets and safety glasses should be required? Can you tell THEM reasons why they shouldn't be required?

A lot of comments on training. Should there be training requirements for tree trimming companies? Or not? What should it be and who should teach it?

Several comments on tree services ripping off workers and using unskilled labor - could they do this if that had to have a 'qualified' person on certain types of jobs? Should commercial companies allow employees to work alone?

It feels good to vent here, but the people in Washington can't do anything that makes practical sense if they don't hear from the guys in the trees and the ones trying to run legit tree services.

If the regulators don't hear from you, then 'safety chain' for everyone might seem like a good idea . . . Help them make good choices.

Philbert

Tell them to start by upholding law and ridding this country of illegal aleins.
Why would government not want to do the right thing? It is not that I
don't trust our government it is that it is already too big and bankrupting
this beloved nation. I would be careful of letting them have any more control of our industry than they already entertain imo!

 

[BCMA]

How many of you who are complaining about OSHA have read what they are trying to accomplish in developing rules for our industry. Because we have refused to establish and enforce operating standards in our industry, and because deaths in our industry are on the rise, we have caught the eye of the Federal Government. If we would restrict tree care operations to qualified, State licensed, or credentialed companies, we probably would not be here. As of right now, ANYONE can be a tree service. They need to know nothing! And what do they do, they go out and hurt themselves, create damage, ruin trees, etc.. We need to as an industry either support OSHA in working with our industry to develop safety regulations that will be to our benefit, or start policing and enforcing some rules as an industry. I support strict licensing and competency testing for all tree care companies. This will help solve the problems we are now facing.

In the last three years I have called for two OSHA inspections for our company. Yes, you heard right, I call OSHA. Both inspections cost me a couple of thousand buck to rectify their demands. Did I really want to do it…no, but I did because I want a safe work place for our employees, and we want to set a standard of doing thing right. I’m tired of sleaze-ball tree guys that won’t wear their PPE, and follow common sense rules.

Our company also goes through DOT audits to insure vehicles and paperwork is in order. I’m proud to say that we were the 31st company in the nation to accomplish the TCIA accreditation. We are now going through the re-certification process. We also have a Certified Treecare Safety Professional on staff, yours truly.

We do not have much of an OSHA presence where I operate. We have never had an inspector visit a jobsite unannounced. If I see companies blatantly breaking OSHA rules, I have no problem dropping the dime. If we do not start policing ourselves, we will have the government do it for us as we are now seeing.

The Government has plenty of reason to be concerned. We should be concerned also. Below is from the website, and this is why we have caught their attention. They are only asking for input which is not unreasonable in this circumstance.

The hazards present in tree care operations have resulted in a
significant number of serious accidents. For example, looking at fatal
accidents in the tree services and ornamental shrubs industry sector
(SIC 0783), just one of the industry sectors that perform tree care
operations, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that between
1992 and 2002 \1\ there were 637 fatalities.\2\ That averages to 58
fatalities per year. The vast majority (75.6 percent) of those
fatalities were falls, being struck by falling objects, and
electrocutions, which are types of accidents most closely associated
with tree trimming and removal operations. Falls and being struck by
falling objects accounted for about one-third (32 percent) and one-
quarter (26 percent) of the deaths, respectively. Contact with electric
current resulted in 17.6 percent of the fatalities and transportation
incidents also were significant causes of fatalities during that
period.

According to BLS data, the annual number of fatalities in SIC 0783
increased between 1992 and 2002. In 2002, for instance, there were 70
fatalities, almost double the 36 reported in 1992. Moreover, during the
last 3 years of the period, there were 70 or more fatalities each year.
From 1992 to 2002, there was a significant increase in the number of
fatalities in SIC 0783 resulting from being struck by falling objects
and transportation incidents, including being struck by mobile
equipment. Those types of fatalities increased more than three-fold and
five-fold, respectively. Also, during that period the number of
fatalities in SIC 0783 among Hispanic employees more than quadrupled,
increasing from 4 deaths in 1992 to 17 deaths in 2002. In 1992, 11
percent of the fatalities in SIC 0783 were Hispanic employees. By 2002,
however, Hispanic employees accounted for 24 percent of all fatalities,
which was significantly higher than the percentage of fatalities for
Hispanic employees in private industry as a whole (15 percent).

Data from OSHA's Integrated Management Information System (IMIS)
for SIC 0783 show similar results. From 1994-2007, fatalities resulting
from falls (from trees or bucket trucks) and being struck by falling
objects accounted for 28 and 29 percent of the fatal injuries,
respectively. Contact with electric current and transportation
accidents accounted for 20 and 9 percent of the fatalities,
respectively.

Looking at fatalities associated with chipper operations, a
hazardous task related to tree trimming and tree removal operations,
seven percent of employee deaths reported in the BLS data resulted when
an employee was pulled into a chipper or struck by the chipper hood or
other part of the chipper. Similarly, 20 fatalities reported in the
IMIS data during the past 10 years (1998-2007) occurred in chipper
operations. Seventy percent of those deaths resulted when employees
were caught and pulled into the chipper.

Injury data for SIC 0783 also indicate the hazardous nature of tree
care operations. For example, in 2002 BLS reported an average annual
injury rate of 7.6 cases per 100 fulltime workers in SIC 0783, which
was above the annual rate of 5.3 in private industry as a whole.\3\

 

[BRCCArborist]

BCMA, do you really think a state-mandated license will really put "hack" tree companies out of business? You just said that OSHA is not normally covering your area, why would a state tree licensing board be any different? It's just one more fee that an honest company will have to pay, in addition to the pest applicators license, pesticide business license, DOT, contractors license, and local licenses, and whatever else you may have. The crappy companies usually never have any of this stuff, and they never get busted. You have to accept the fact that EVERY trade, and i mean electricians, plumbers, HVAC, framers, drywallers, tapers, painters, loggers, surveyors, masons, and landscapers, are going to have the upper level, skilled guys, and the lower hack guys. It will always be this way. It needs to be this way, because many customers do not want to pay for quality work, and thats where the hacks come in. I say let them have those customers. I don't think one more fee to pay, I'm guessing around $150 or so a year, will make it go away. It will never be properly enforced, and it shouldnt be, we have better things to worry about.

 

[capetrees]

And when the hacks show up in their pickups and trailers with no lettering and rented or borrowed equipment like chippers or even saws, nobodys going to be able to tell if they are homeowners doing their own work or not. But the guy with the lettered truck who owns his own equipment, pays his taxes and employs others legally will be the ONLY ones that have to go through the review and oversight. Will it cut into the hacks day at all? NO! Will it cost me more to run a business? YES! I'd rather put my money into better equipment that in the pockets of some hack from OSHA! So tell me, why do I want regulation in an industry where I always work safe and so do those guys that work for me, proof of which is the fact that I'm still here? The ones that die or are injured are the ones that never should have been in the tree in the first place. Fact is, as they die off, the indistry becomes safer. Darwinism at its finest. :greenchainsaw:

 

[Crofter]

If you have the chance to make some input, go for it otherwise the regulations put in place will have a lot more input from desk jockeys that are more concerned with liability boilerplate than they are making a set of guidelines you guys can live with. It is pretty much an unregulated industry but probably will not remain so. Thinking that the ones that kill themselves thins out the number of imcompetants doesnt work: more fools rush in and more headlines beget pressure on the ones who are trying to do a good job. An unregulated industry certainly does attract some amazingly jerk off operators. Regulation will add to the cost and complexity but it should do something toward levelling the playing field for the ones who want to operated decently.

 

[BCMA]

If you have the chance to make some input, go for it otherwise the regulations put in place will have a lot more input from desk jockeys that are more concerned with liability boilerplate than they are making a set of guidelines you guys can live with. It is pretty much an unregulated industry but probably will not remain so. Thinking that the ones that kill themselves thins out the number of imcompetants doesnt work: more fools rush in and more headlines beget pressure on the ones who are trying to do a good job. An unregulated industry certainly does attract some amazingly jerk off operators. Regulation will add to the cost and complexity but it should do something toward levelling the playing field for the ones who want to operated decently.

Thank you. You just saved me the time of having to respond to the two previous posts.

 

[BRCCArborist]

Thank you. You just saved me the time of having to respond to the two previous posts.

Did you read my post? What is the point of having these agencies and boards if the rules are not enforced, or only loosely enforced? You said it yourself, OSHA does not have a large presence in your area. I can guarantee it will be no different with a state tree license. I dislike most regulation, but if I'm paying for something, I better see some results! I'm trying to be polite and see what your'e all about, but I sometimes question the motives of people that want regulation after regulation.

 

[BC WetCoast]

In BC, all workers are covered by a gov't run worker compensation insurance plan (Worksafe BC). Every employer is required to pay the premiums for their employees (and ensure contractors are covered). So here, Worksafe BC sets the safety standards.

So to answer Capetree's question as to what they could regulate, here are some examples:
- no one is allowed more than 10' off the ground without being tied in
- standards are set for ladders
- chippers - ie new Vermeer shut off bars around the tray
- lifts - inspection requirements (records must be available)
- crane standards - standards for riding the hook
- standards for PPE - hats, glasses, hearing
- chainsaw pants - standards to how fast they must stop a chain traveling at a certain speed
- standards for hazardous material handling (pesticides)
- working around powerlines (who, how close, what training)

The chipper standard is in response to a worker being pulled through a chipper. With the number of struck bys occurring, I can see more regs being put in place regarding that.

As they have a legislated mandate to rehabilitate injured workers (retrain or pension off if necessary), they are also given the legislated right to set safety standards. Hence, it is always better to get in early and influence the setting of the standard rather than b!tch about them after the fact. That's why big business hire lobbyists.

 

[BCMA]

BCMA, do you really think a state-mandated license will really put "hack" tree companies out of business? You just said that OSHA is not normally covering your area, why would a state tree licensing board be any different? It's just one more fee that an honest company will have to pay, in addition to the pest applicators license, pesticide business license, DOT, contractors license, and local licenses, and whatever else you may have. The crappy companies usually never have any of this stuff, and they never get busted. You have to accept the fact that EVERY trade, and i mean electricians, plumbers, HVAC, framers, drywallers, tapers, painters, loggers, surveyors, masons, and landscapers, are going to have the upper level, skilled guys, and the lower hack guys. It will always be this way. It needs to be this way, because many customers do not want to pay for quality work, and thats where the hacks come in. I say let them have those customers. I don't think one more fee to pay, I'm guessing around $150 or so a year, will make it go away. It will never be properly enforced, and it shouldnt be, we have better things to worry about.

BCMA, do you really think a state-mandated license will really put "hack" tree companies out of business?

If a “hack” business does not have a required state license to do tree work, they cannot do tree work legally. If they should get caught, there would be a hefty fine. It would not take much time for the word to get around, “don’t get caught doing tree work” if we had a regulation that could be enforced. As of right now, few states have a licensing process for tree care companies. A license violation can be enforced by the state police in Washington state. Your job gets shut down and you get a fine. Washington state only has a general contractors license and not one specifically for tree care companies.

You just said that OSHA is not normally covering your area, why would a state tree licensing board be any different?


Because if a licensed company witnessed an unlicensed company performing tree work, they could simply make the call- turn them it. Even though OSHA does not have a presence where I operate, they can still levy fines from a picture. There is a way to get things enforced if it means enough to you.

It's just one more fee that an honest company will have to pay, in addition to the pest applicators license, pesticide business license, DOT, contractor’s license, and local licenses, and whatever else you may have.


That is the cost of doing business, and it gets passed on to the consumer. As it is now, illegitimate and illegal business that do not follow laws and regulations, work under the table, have an unfair playing advantage. If there was a state forced licensing placed on all tree care providers that was enforceable, the playing ground would be more level.

The crappy companies usually never have any of this stuff, and they never get busted.

They would get busted if the legitimate businesses would turn them in to the authorities. I would like to see them busted. In our state there are over 125 occupations that require a state license to operate within that occupation. This should be true for tree workers also. It would solve a majority of our problems.


You have to accept the fact that EVERY trade, and i mean electricians, plumbers, HVAC, framers, drywallers, tapers, painters, loggers, surveyors, masons, and landscapers, are going to have the upper level, skilled guys, and the lower hack guys. It will always be this way. It needs to be this way, because many customers do not want to pay for quality work, and thats where the hacks come in. I say let them have those customers. I don't think one more fee to pay, I'm guessing around $150 or so a year, will make it go away. It will never be properly enforced, and it shouldn’t be, we have better things to worry about.

As of right now in most states, anyone can work as a tree worker whit no fear of being panelized for not being legitimate. It’s a free-for-all. People are getting killed, and we have attracted the attention of the Federal Government. People who don’t see we have a problem have their heads in the sand.


I know for a fact that the industries such as plumbers and electricians are very careful about operating without a license. You do not want to get caught doing this. If a license cost another $150.00 a year, I do not see this as a big obstacle.

 

[BRCCArborist]

As of right now in most states, anyone can work as a tree worker whit no fear of being panelized for not being legitimate. It’s a free-for-all. People are getting killed, and we have attracted the attention of the Federal Government. People who don’t see we have a problem have their heads in the sand.


I know for a fact that the industries such as plumbers and electricians are very careful about operating without a license. You do not want to get caught doing this. If a license cost another $150.00 a year, I do not see this as a big obstacle.

Just because someone is licensed does not mean they do quality work. I have seen plenty of plumbing and electrical nightmares. I license is not a measure of a company's quality of work, it is just a test you have to take( writing a check to "Treasurer of "Your State"") I can argue all night, but it's obvious you won't be swayed, I won't either.

 

[capetrees]

BCMA apparently lives in the parralel universe where all illegalities are reprimanded and the righteous ones prevail all the time!