Outdoor Wood Boiler Disaster

[stonykill]

owb commie?

well I may have missed something...but I don't think anyone called you a commie, an idiot, or anything of the sort. Are you crazy for constantly messing with the manual draft on your owb, yup....I think so. Set it once and leave it alone. Same with the aqua stat...leave it alone. Do I think your on a mission to outlaw owb's.... an activist even,again yes, just my opinion, and I am entitled to that untill I see behavior that changes that . The fact that your very 1st post here is what it is, then a long explanation, just reinforces this. There are many here with owb's that use them properly, don't constantly screw with settings, burn good clean wood that smokes only as much or less than a regular wood stove....and are very happy with them.

 

[ray benson]

Bob,
Hope you will post the outcome.

 

[Husky137]

I adjusted my OWB tonight because its gonna be real cold, I put more wood in it, the aquastat controls the rest.:biggrinbounce2:

Badger Bob must burn a sh!tload of wood.

 

[windthrown]

Sorry there Badger Bobby...

Sorry about the OWB conspiracy theorists there on AS, BadgerBob. OWBs are a touchy subject on AS and over on the Mother Earth News forum. Many blog wars on indoor vs outdoor wood burning, as well as EPA insanity, bans on OWBs, and lots of brand loyalty and design disputes. We debate about what is inside of a ping-pong ball with passion on this site. :yoyo:

 

[bassman]

In all honesty your telling people to repost your first post is the same line alot of "nuts" use to get there word out whatever it may be.
Now from your second you have shown me that you are indeed a person going through some sort of hell with your heating system and like myself has turned to the net to find some answers.
I love and hate my boiler and it has done things to me that i cant even talk about .
they are what they are and they have there issues but keep in mind they have been around for years and it is not untill the lately with the gas and oil prices going up have they become more mainstream and with that you get new manufactures poping up and selling crap.
my boiler is built well but it is not foolproof as i have had a boilover and just last week i froze up part of my system solid and had to remove the exchanger and thaw it out and then heat up the lines to remove 3 feet of ice tubes and torch a taco pump to get it pumping .
this is boiler life get used to it.
your problem could have been avoided if i installed it cause i would have put in a few different ways of blowing off pressure .
but bla bla bla i think you could get 20 people telling you what they would do .
bottom line is if there is a damper that always lets air into the firebox even when the temp is up that is just wrong .
what does that help??
keep us posted

oh and welcome to the forum

shayne

 

[ktm rider]

I am also skeptical about this whole post and here is why.
Now I'm no engineer, far from it, But i highly doubt that Underwriters Labratories ( UL listed) is going to certify a PRESSURIZED system That works with a MANUAL DRAFT with no way to regulate that manual draft for safety. unpressurized?? maybe but still highly unlikely.

There is absolutely no way I could ever sleep well at night knowing my $8,000 investment and possibly the lives of my family depend every night on my skills in meteorology...

 

[sperho]

What a nightmare. I'm wondering if the UL listing was for the electrical portions only and not the pressure vessel. I hope you get some answers and fair resolution to this situation.

 

[hockeypuck]

Carbon Coalition

We have a town meeting coming up in my town, and a useless warrant article being voted on stating that our town will do all it can to reduce carbon emissions. This was all brought about by a group called the Carbon Coalition. Harmless enough for now, it only cost the ink that it is printed with, but the way I look at it, it is just the first step. Kind of like when you go to the dentist and they put that numbing bannana tasting substance on your gum, just before they shove that needle in . If you have one of these warrant articles in your town to be voted on, make sure you show up and voice your opinion. Do not the these carbon nazis take away more of our freedoms. The earth maybe heating up, but there is more evidence to suggest that it is caused by the sun, rather than man. The earth has heated up before, this is not the first time. I would suggest before opening your mouth at an open forum that you spend some time getting the facts on global warming. This is an emotional driven subject, not based on much fact. Do not lets these tree hugging socialists snooker you and get into your wallet. This probably should have had its own thread, but I digress.

puck

FYI here is a good article on artic ice http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=b228f4b0-a869-4f85-ba08-902b95c45dcf&k=0

 

[charkan]

I own a royall 6300 and yes the manual draft sucks.My system currently has a heat dump which basicly is an aquastat wired up to furnace fan that kicks it on when the water temp hits 195.The dealer I bought mine from offers a kit with an automatic air shutter but its about $200.I have run my boiler all winter no real problems.I'm using Logstor under the ground and 1" copper in the house.Will be be installing automatic air shutter before next winter though.

 

[geofore]

low temp(fusible)alloys

www.alchemycastings.com This is a place to order the metal I am talking about for soft plugs. At 255F, your pressure is just under 18 pounds per square inch.

 

[BadgerBob]

Help at last

Thanks to Charkan I know a fix is out there for the manual draft. How about a phone number or website for the "air shutter." Also, I would like to actually work with the manufacturer to install a small electric motor with a control arm fixed to the draft plate. When the draft motor turns on, the plate would fully open. When it shuts off, the plate would 'nearly' close. I can't imagine that costing $200.

The boiler inspector hasn't gotten back to me yet; I hope he'll take a look and make recommendations. In the mean time, I'm going to call a Conbraco engineer to see if one of their low pressure steam relief valves is suitable. The temperature of 5 psi steam is 222 F but I don't know whether the valve requires steam to activate it or if hot water will do it too. Is a 222 F blow-off safe for the pex? Not by specifications but the Rehau engineer did say they tested at 240 for months with no problems.

Sphero mentioned the U.L. thing again: Let's say you made a boiler and you want a U.L. label on it. Okay, let's say you go whole-hog and send an entire unit to them (you wouldn't have to do that) and ask them to test the electrical system (wiring, switches, aquastat, etc.) and pressure test the door assembly. U.L will test the specified items and slap a label on it if they pass their standards. Does that mean you have a safe boiler? Of course not! It means it passed the tests you (their client) asked them to perform.

The Royall boiler passed other tests, too, such as ASME. "The American Society of Mechanical Engineers (ASME) Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code is internationally recognized as the core body of knowledge for the latest rules of safety for design, production, maintenance, and inspection of boilers and pressure vessels." I understand their main theme has to do with welding but I know their is more to it -- I just don't have the big bucks to purchase their code books.

Royall also states their boilers are inspected by the, "Hartford Boiler Inspection & Insurance Company. The boilers are also inspected on-site by the National Board of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Inspectors and are continually checked by our quality control team." Well, I'd like to know what these agencies are thinking when they certify a boiler with a manually operated draft. After all, they should not have the burden of ignorance I had when I purchased the unit. "Oh, I can deal with that," I thought.

On another subject, the product loyalty people add humor to this experience. They want everyone to know how smart they were to purchase this or that and how really dumb you were for not doing the same as they. Is that funny? Well, humility is a trait learned when you finally develop the courage to admit your errors -- consistantly -- and it usually takes many missteps to get to that point. It's funny because I remember how hard it was for me to begin swallowing my pride.

And those who think I'm a secret agent. Wow, they must have a hard time falling asleep without a Glock under their pillow. All I wanted was a forum to get the word out about a potential disaster for closed system OWB owners with supply pex running into the house. Why? I was a firefighter for 33 years, and, as the saying goes, once a firefighter always a firefighter. My entire adult life has been about saving lives and property, so, if I could prevent injury, death or damage by writing a letter and suggesting it be forwarded to affected parties, I was just doing my job.

 

[ktm rider]

If i offended, I apologize. There are just A TON of OWB haters out there that post things like your first post. I am not an OWB fan, Had one and hated it. I now have an indoor boiler in my garage. But, I just hate when these coalitions, activists, whatever you want to call them try and tell someone else what they should do. To each his own.

If I were in your shoes and if selling the OWB and getting a safer one is out of the question, I would SERIOUSLY look into a heat dump and an automatic combustion blower. ( that seals off the air when the water temp is satisfied)
That system setup that you described sounds like a time bomb for sure.

 

[windthrown]

OWB forum stuff

BB:

Good to know that you were (or still are) a firefighter. I always wanted to be one when I grew up. Still do, really. I burn 50+ slash piles here a year. Mainly post-clear-cut cleanup and the like, for fire prevention (by law you have to burn slash here).

Anyway, as for OWBs, I think that the majority of people here are not big fans of closed/pressure system boilers. Mainly becasue they are prone to explode under pressure, or as in your case, other problems like PEX giving out that would not fail with an open (non-pressure) boiler system. Pressure systems have some advantages though, like less cavitation in the pumps so they last longer. I was advised not to get a pressurized system by several plumber friends of mine. So I avoided them.

As for boiler brand loyalty, well, that is like chainsaws. You can see over on the chainsaw forum that we debate, complain, yell scream and holler about what type of chainsaws we like and use, and why. I happen to like Stihl saws myself. I also happen to love our Central Boiler unit becasue it works as expected, their support is good, it has had some very minor issues that they fixed under warantee, and overall (and best of all) the dang thing works. I designed the system to retro-fit the existing house hydronic floor system and solar water heating system. I also installed it completely myself, and lo, when I built a fire in it, and closed the door... the heat came on in less than an hour. So yes, I am proud of the fact that we selected a good one, and I designed and installed it, and most of all, that it works!

Again, sorry that your boiler failed in such a dramatic way. Sorry too that some people here are paranoid. That is the way it is on an open discussion forum I guess. We have had some real flame wars over boilers and wood stoves here in the past. Same over on M.E.N. We scream, vent, complain, compare, joke, and share experiences. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

 

[stonykill]

your 1st post here asked everyone to spread this info around the internet, without any real proof that it actually happened. No pictures, which you hopefully took if you are indeed going forward with legal proceedings, only your word. Further, when I quoted your original post, it showed as 2 separate quotes, telling me you copied and pasted the main text, then added at the beginning, to paraphrase, spread this around, take my word for it, it happened.This makes me think you spread this around on several sites on the net.Also you state you fired the boiler for the night. You fire the boiler for the season, not the night. At night you just put wood on it. All of the above are situations to make me not to believe it.

Your 2nd post, you stated you were an outdoor wood boiler nut, with firewood everywhere. If you are, you are simply feeding the owb activists just what they want. They want net info like this to feed their mission. Anyone can post anything on the net, true or not. If you do love your outdoor boiler, or if not yours, a better one, you already did damage that is by now all over the internet.

Hopefully something was learned from this, do your homework throughly, before making a purchase like this, and 2nd, don't screw with it once its running. I still say all the admitted messing with the aqua stat, and constantly monitoring the weather to adjust your damper hurts your legal case immensely. The manufacturer can accuse you of other wrong doings, and you will have a hard time proving them wrong after you spread this stuff on the net. As a matter of fact if your lawyer knows you did this, if he thinks its a bad idea to spread rumors on the net, he should be replaced.

Good luck with your boiler....and don't mess with it anymore. Get it fixed or replaced, and only put wood in it, don't mess with the damper and aqua stat.

 

[ktm rider]

My indoor boiler is pressureized, but I only run about 12 psi. The pressure relief valve is set at 20 psi. I never had any saftey issues at all with this system. I did have it overheat once ( which was my fault) The water was at 240deg and the pressure still didn't go over the 20 psi limit.
I like the pressureized systems for a couple of reasons. One is less corrosion. second, I don't have to continually "top off" the water like I did with my OWB that was an open system. and like you said your pumps last longer with less cavitation.

This, once again falls under what I said in my above post. " To each his own" what works for one, might not work for another. All that really matters is that we are all getting really cheap heat into our houses and sticking it to the greedy oil companies.

 

[stonykill]

I don't have to continually "top off" the water like I did with my OWB that was an open system. and like you said your pumps last longer with less cavitation.

This, once again falls under what I said in my above post. " To each his own" what works for one, might not work for another. All that really matters is that we are all getting really cheap heat into our houses and sticking it to the greedy oil companies.

It must be a difference from manufacturer to manufacturer, as my open system only required a topping off after 4 months of use. I check it everyday, and the water level is always good. Once again, it makes me glad I looked at every boiler I could before I bought mine. Research is very important. I've been sticking it to the oil companys since 91, 100% wood heat, no back up oil or electric heat. :rockn:

 

[jhellwig]

There should be a spot (female pipe fitting) to place a pipe reducer in the top of your boiler. Pour the reducer full of the metal, you can melt it on the kitchen stove. Let it cool and then screw it into the top of the boiler. Then when the temp hits 255F it melts and you'll be able to hear the steam whistling out of the top of the boiler and not the pex blowing the line out in the house. It'll work even if the pressure relief valve fails or you don't get to 30 lbs. of pressure. If water in the top of the boiler gets to 255F, it melts, the steam is released. It doesn't wait for the pressure to build, it just goes to a liquid state at 255F.

Any soft plugs in any boilers I have seen are inside the fire box so that when they melt they extinguish the fire in the processe. Steam engines from the 1900's have them in there fireboxes so it isn't something that is new or uncommon.

If it was used when he bought it I could very well see it being removed and a plug put in its place.

 

[ktm rider]

It must be a difference from manufacturer to manufacturer, as my open system only required a topping off after 4 months of use.

Must be.

I had a Pacific Western. it was and still is I guess, a very well made unit. I had to top it off every week or two. I could always see a little bit of steam coming out of the overflow tube which is right by the stack on a PW. That little bit of steam adds up after a few weeks.

 

[charkan]

Air Shutter

The air shutter my dealer sells comes on an aquatherm boiler which he also is a dealer for.I'm with you $200 is ridiculous.I'm a toolmaker by trade so I"ll make one myself.Will probably use a solenoid rather than an electric motor.If you built it right you can use gravity to shut it when power is turned off.That way its failsafe in case of power failure.

 

[Husky137]

Never had to top off my Central OWB. Check the water level every day.

I'm astonished that any manufacturer would sell something like this with a manual damper, especially a pressurized system.