Petroleum based vs Synthetic Mixes

[bwalker]

Have you ever used Redline oil or

Yes I have (about 5 gallons worth) and I have had the nasty corrosion problems along with many other people. Redlines head chemist knows about the problem, but redline is unwilling to fix it becasue it would require a complete reformulation. At least that was the excuse he gave me.

- that it's the oxygenates (ethanol, methanol and mtbe's

Thats the company line depending on what day of the week it is. Funny thing is I haveent had any trouble with other two cycle oils useing the same fuel, which in my area does not have mtbe, ethanol or any other oxygenates in it.

The new line of VP race fuels - the MR series - achieve their higher energy content via the use of oxygenates - and it causes the brass in the carbs to corrode black. I saw that you have stated that mtbe's are the 'prefered' oxygenate - have you ever used octane boosters (which use mtbe's as the primary compoment) in your bikes? I have and they cause the brass jets to corrode black - so you better not use VP MR fuels or any fuel containing mtbe's

MTBE isnt a high energy componet. It just brings more oxygen to the party. I would like to know which octane booster you used that had mtbe in it? Most of the ones I have seen are tame or mmt based. I have used Phillips race fuels with mtbe in my bikes and sleds and had no problems and have known peopl that used mr series fuel with no issues.

two of the top 2 stroke men in America who

Please tell me you jokeing.

BTW the problem imo is redlines use of polyol ester base stocks with out enough corrosion inhibitor in the additive package. I also take issue with the parrot comment. If it had not been for my personal expiereance with the product I would not have "parroted" some idiots or crackpots claims. Redline is a ok product besides the corrosion issue. I got good topend life when useing it, didnt notice any changes in jetting(although it could happen should the main jet hole corrode to the point of changing dimensions),but I also get the same life while useing MX2T and do not have to deal with a corrosion on the jets and internal engine parts. I take pride in not posting bs without a factual basis for my statements. Redline did in fact corrode my carb brass as well as turn the cranklobe on my sled black and Redline acknowledges they have a problem. You can think im full of crap, but the fact remains that they are aware of the problem and will admit it.

 

[Tony Snyder]

In the early 80s I sold some 100 to 1 synthetic stuff, as I recall it had the Granberg name on it.
We lost 4 or so customer saws, but was never really sure it was the oil except to note that we had no other trouble before or after the synthetic stuff. Ended up the distributer salesman was trying to get what was left of the stuff back out of circulation.

 

[Gypo Logger]

The Three Bares
by

Robert W. Service

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ma tried to wash her garden slacks but couldn't get 'em clean
And so she thought she'd soak 'em in a bucket o' benzine.
It worked all right. She wrung 'em out then wondered what she'd do
With all that bucket load of high explosive residue.
She knew that it was dangerous to scatter it around,
For Grandpa liked to throw his lighted matches on the ground.
Somehow she didn't dare to pour it down the kitchen sink,
And what the heck to do with it, poor Ma jest couldn't think.

Then Nature seemed to give the clue, as down the garden lot
She spied the edifice that graced a solitary spot,
Their Palace of Necessity, the family joy and pride,
Enshrined in morning-glory vine, with graded seats inside;
Jest like that cabin Goldylocks found occupied by three,
But in this case B-E-A-R was spelt B-A-R-E----
A tiny seat for Baby Bare, a medium for Ma,
A full-sized section sacred to the Bare of Grandpapa.

Well, Ma was mighty glad to get that worry off her mind,
And hefting up the bucket so combustibly inclined,
She hurried down the garden to that refuge so discreet,
And dumped the liquid menace safely through the centre seat.

Next morning old Grandpa arose; he made a hearty meal,
And sniffed the air and said: `By Gosh! how full of beans I feel.
Darned if I ain't as fresh as paint; my joy will be complete
With jest a quiet session on the usual morning seat;
To smoke me pipe an' meditate, an' maybe write a pome,
For that's the time when bits o' rhyme gits jiggin' in me dome.'

He sat down on that special seat slicked shiny by his age,
And looking like Walt Whitman, jest a silver-whiskered sage,
He filled his corn-cob to the brim and tapped it snugly down,
And chuckled: `Of a perfect day I reckon this the crown.'
He lit the weed, it soothed his need, it was so soft and sweet:
And then he dropped the lighted match clean through the middle seat.

His little grand-child Rosyleen cried from the kichen door:
`Oh, Ma, come quick; there's sompin wrong; I heared a dreffel roar;
Oh, Ma, I see a sheet of flame; it's rising high and higher...
Oh, Mummy dear, I sadly fear our comfort-cot's caught fire.'

Poor Ma was thrilled with horror at them words o' Rosyleen.
She thought of Grandpa's matches and that bucket of benzine;
So down the garden geared on high, she ran with all her power,
For regular was Grandpa, and she knew it was his hour.
Then graspin' gaspin' Rosyleen she peered into the fire,
A roarin' soarin' furnace now, perchance old Grandpa's pyre....

But as them twain expressed their pain they heard a hearty cheer----
Behold the old rapscallion squattinn' in the duck pond near,
His silver whiskers singed away, a gosh-almighty wreck,
Wi' half a yard o' toilet seat entwined about his neck....

He cried: `Say, folks, oh, did ye hear the big blow-out I made?
It scared me stiff - I hope you-uns was not too much afraid?
But now I best be crawlin' out o' this dog-gasted wet....
For what I aim to figger out is----WHAT THE HECK I ET?'

 

[sedanman]

Bravo!

 

[Tzed250]

The best oil!

My first post! A little background on myself. I have worked on motorcycles for the past 20 years. For a while I raced a Yamaha TZ250 Roadracer. The owners manual only recomended 2 oils for that bike. YamalubeR, and Castrol A747. A new TZ250 maual recomends "only" Castrol A747. This is the same oil that is used in 500cc grand prix 2-stroke roadracers that cost over a million dollars. A747 is designed for liquid cooled engines. Being aircooled, chainsaws may require a different additive package to give the best results. 32:1 is 3.1% oil in the mix, 50:1 is 2%, so 32:1 is over 50% more oil. I believe paying close attention to proper air/fuel ratio is much mor important than a increasing the fuel/oil ratio 1.1%. I would like to hear other opinions.

John

 

[don]

Castrol 2 CYL synthetic

What is the product code cost for the Castrol 2 CYL synthetic oil?

 

[bwalker]

Castrol747 is a great oil. Honda HRC also reccomends this oil for there hightech roadracers. However, for use in a working saw I wouldnt think it would be ideal. Two cycle oils tend to be application specific. Useing a oil intended for a machine thats motor is rebuilt every race may not be the best choice for a saw that gets run for years before a rebuild. 747 like any castor based oil will leave nasty deposits in the exhaust tract and being that castor oils are hydrophillic will have crappy corrosion protectionas well.

 

[Tzed250]

A747

A747 is a synthetic based oil, not castor based. The oil that is used in a saw should be engineered for air cooled engines, AC engines have different needs than LC engines.

 

[bwalker]

A747 is a synthetic based oil

Actually its a castor synthetic blend. I agree with your statement about aircooled and liquid cooled engines haveing differant needs. The detergant packages in aircooled oils are differant in that they are low ash formulations. Liquid cooled formulations are ash free formulations. Natural metalorganic compounds that cause ash are a neccessity when ring belt temps reach the 300 degree range. Thats why it is a bad idea to use outboard oil in a AC saw motor. The waters muddy when you consider that some liquid cooled motors also require a low ash forumla due to high loading and high internal temps. A example of this would be a roadrace or mx motorcycle. All in all oils are very application specific, IE use outboard oil for your outboard and a iso egd oil for your saw.

 

[don]

So whats the best oil?

Synthetic, mixed , petroleum based?
Bang for the buck I am using the Stihl "black" bottle.
I pay $30 a gallon.
I have been told by the shop it is a blend.
Castrol huh? Where do you get it?

 

[bwalker]

Stihl black is at the least a synthetic blend. The jaso fc and iso egd standards that it meets are impossible to reach with a straight mineral oil. If its not a straight synthetic I would bet its a mineral/polybutene blend. Most of the blends that meet the above mentioned standards are. BTW A747 con be fond online at verious places.You never see it in stores though is its mostly used by roadracers. Here is one source I know of. It also cost about 25$ per liter.
http://www.mce-racing.com/products/a747.html

 

[don]

Castrol A747

Went Castrol site and this is what it says for A747:

High viscosity, low ash, part Synthetic lubricant.
Specially formulated for use in water-cooled, 2-stroke engines during road racing and motorcross conditions.
Special additive to prevent throttle slide sticking in all weather.

A portion of this high price is for this additive for the throttle slide sticking. Do you need this for a saw?

Also, bwalker maybe correct in saying it has no preservatives / stabilizers in it. I guess if you have a saw you break down to the crank after usage this would be the best. It might not be the right stuff to keep around in a jug for a week or moore.

 

[bwalker]

oops

 

[bwalker]

IMO the high price is because they hardly sell any of it. Doesnt really have to do with any additives in it. You are right in assuming that "race" type oil dont have(in most Cases) fuel stabilizers and rust prevention additives. leaving ester or castor based fluids inside your motor for storage is a big no no as both are hydrophillic(attract H2O). You can guess what happens next. Rust. You cant go wrong useing saw oil in a saw, boat oil in a boat and motorycyle oil in a motorcycle.

 

[Fish]

How many engineers does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
Or a Llama? I know sheepdip when I step in it, and I am looking for a new pair of shoes.

 

[bwalker]

????

 

[Tzed250]

A747

bwalker, where do you get your info that A747 is a synthetic/castor blend? I have used A747 and do not remember anything about it containing castor oil. If a lube contains castor oil a person must know because it cannot be mixed with other oils because of the chance that the castor molecules will clot. As far as slide stick is concerned, saws don't have slides, but roadrace bikes do. You don't want the throttle to hang open when you are flying toward a 60mph turn at 150mph!

 

[bwalker]

You don't want the throttle to hang open when you are flying toward a 60mph turn at 150mph!

I can second that. I had the throttle stick on my cr500af a couple weeks ago. Not fun. As for the A747. I have tech sheet that says it is a blend Of Castor/ester blend. I think the sheet says around 30% castor.

 

[bwalker]

Thought I would add to this thread that I just tore down a buddies bike that ueds Motul 800 for about 70 hours(thats alot for a bike) and the motor looked great. Id switch to the stuff, buts its $15 a litre.

 

[don]

Anyone run Maxima K2 or Motul 600 ?

Went to the local Yamaha Shop and they had Yamalube RF , a synthetic with a Castrol cap on it
Plus they had the Motul 600 and Maxima K2.

How much performance difference are we talking about if any?
Are we just looking at wear and tear when it comes to an oil?