Possibly a step towards appeasing both sides?

[OregonSawyer]

Somewhat interesting article I happened across today... Hopefully this leads to a bit more civility and the "enviro's" not trying to keep everything locked up in litigation.

Seeing the Forest for the Trees

I am always curious to hear what you professionals and retired/semi-retired/not-as-semi-retired-as-I'd-like-to-be's opinions are. Or what, if any, you see coming from this. Having not been around as long as some of you I'm not sure if this is something that is actively practiced around the country (aside from where it states in the article.)

Enjoy the weekend!

 

[forestryworks]

It looks like a decent plan. Although public sentiment will still find it's way in, which is the killer.

Picking out the spotted owl stuff from the article; in my mind, if a barred owl can and does breed with the spotted owl, then there should really be no need for "spotted owl habitat". The barred owl will take over the spotted owl and become the Botted Owl, lol. And, the Barred Owl is a generalist.

Let's not make logging suffer for the decline of a not so specialist specie.

 

[madhatte]

Uggh, deconfliction. We do it for every sale, TWICE, and it seems that it's impossible to please everybody. Best we can hope for is to REALLY piss off as few people as possible. Special Interest groups need to remember that their interests are "special" and may not represent anybody but themselves.

 

[forestryworks]

Uggh, deconfliction. We do it for every sale, TWICE, and it seems that it's impossible to please everybody. Best we can hope for is to REALLY piss off as few people as possible. Special Interest groups need to remember that their interests are "special" and may not represent anybody but themselves.

Should be, the second time around, piss on the haters! They had their chance!

And besides, unless you're dead, you DO use wood products.

 

[bert0168]

And besides, unless you're dead, you DO use wood products.

Your gonna use em even when your dead, burned (cardboard) or buried too.

 

[forestryworks]

Your gonna use em even when your dead, burned (cardboard) or buried too.

Or old school wooden coffins

 

[slowp]

I'm cynical, jaded and a pessimist on "collaboration". I think it depends on the FS district makeup and power, and then the power of the enviro group.

Here, timber production is the dead last consideration. I've sat through meeting after meeting. I've felt like I was talking to a rock when asked my opinion. I don't have the college paper to be taken seriously, I guess.
The collaborative group here is overloaded with highly educated folks from outside the community. They represent the enviro group. The local members just can't hack it and one is downright embarrassing. The group is definitely loaded to the enviro side of the process.

Some hope locally is that one person who seemed to run things and had his own agenda, retired. No, not me.
Turnover was needed.

I dunno, sometimes collaboration seems to be just another way to keep the "leadership" from having to make hard decisions and be responsible for the outcome.

 

[madhatte]

collaboration seems to be just another way to keep the "leadership" from having to make hard decisions and be responsible for the outcome(

WHOAH

Takes some stones to say that, but it's the truth.

 

[Gologit]

I'm cynical, jaded and a pessimist on "collaboration". I think it depends on the FS district makeup and power, and then the power of the enviro group.



I dunno, sometimes collaboration seems to be just another way to keep the "leadership" from having to make hard decisions and be responsible for the outcome.

This says it for me better than I ever could.

 

[forestryworks]

WHOAH

Takes some stones to say that, but it's the truth.

This says it for me better than I ever could.

Word.

 

[Stihlasaurus]

Environmentalists cannot be appeased. They need to be clear cut.

 

[Gologit]

My view of this situation is a little different than most people. It's more of a "at the bottom, looking up" type thing. I'm a logger and I'm used to that.

I keep waiting for something good to come from all the meetings and seminars...and I'm still waiting. I don't see any changes down here at ground level. I don't see anything getting better.

Maybe the changes are happening so slowly that I'm not aware of them but I still don't feel any positive affect from all of the so-called collaboration. I've been looking, too.

The government agencies in charge of timber sales are run, for the most part, by people whose main focus has moved away from timber harvest. They're bureaucrats, they're well educated, they speak well and they have nice smiles. But they don't ring true with their well publicized efforts at "bringing all the different sides together". They don't want conflict...they want to keep their jobs and look like they're doing something worthwhile in the meantime. They seem to care more about appeasing various environmental groups, or anyone else with political clout, than they care about managing the timber. This is a direct reflection of public attitude, wrong though it most certainly is.

Nobody expects that the timber sales from government land will ever reach the stage they did years ago. Nobody with half a brain really wants them too, either. But there is a lot more room for compromise, and a lot more government timber that needs to be logged. It's a waste of the resource to treat it the way the government types do.

But, until we in this industry can speak with a voice that equals the volume of the environmentalists, until we can make ourselves heard and understood and accepted on the same level that the preservationists enjoy, we won't make any progress.

 

[NORMZILLA44]

Thought I would stop in and say hello. To be honest I was a little depressed, sickened, and well sad was going to say today, but it's lately. The politicians and environmental experts have put this whole country in a sad state of affairs. And we the hard working citizens carry the load and pay. Forestry can't do the drip torch burns anymore like they used to even on private property. Our counties here have sudden oak death, and diseased trees by the thousands, and fire hazard galore. The western Sonoma county where I grew up has enviro clout, and they don't even let us spray round up, and the brush, poison oak etc if it is not killing the trees its a visibility hazard, fire hazard two lane roads are one. They ##### when we run the mowers, they scream when we trim the trees. The county gets scared when they get the pressure, and sometimes tell us to back off on the cutting yet if a branch falls on a citizens car, or hits it or they pull out and get in an accident we can be liable. So we are out with CDF cutting crews lately, they show up at 10, and leave at 230. And everything gets chipped one branch at a time that's production!

 

[paccity]

and the end result hits home around here. as everywhere else.

 

[lfnh]

Knees were feeling gnarly tonite so a revised version felt in order.
Paccity - hope you don't mind.

 

[OregonSawyer]

The collaborative group here is overloaded with highly educated folks from outside the community. They represent the enviro group. The local members just can't hack it and one is downright embarrassing. The group is definitely loaded to the enviro side of the process.

They're bureaucrats, they're well educated, they speak well and they have nice smiles...

...But, until we in this industry can speak with a voice that equals the volume of the environmentalists, until we can make ourselves heard and understood and accepted on the same level that the preservationists enjoy, we won't make any progress.

Thanks all for the input.

It is statements like these that I have quoted that really make me want to go to grad school (possibly beyond) and maybe some years down the road have some say in matters such as this. I hear constantly that the "enviro's" are more highly educated and speak more eloquently - I would like to attempt to level the playing field. Not that I could bear the burden by myself but it's gotta start somewhere I suppose. Not that a piece of paper qualifies somebody to necessarily be right in all matters, but as slowp eluded to, people take you a little more serious (generally speaking).

 

[madhatte]

I hear constantly that the "enviro's" are more highly educated and speak more eloquently - I would like to attempt to level the playing field.

Don't look now, but you're one of "us". We've got plenty education, and plenty voices -- "they" just don't want to hear us yet. Let us gather our forces, learn our lessons, lick our wounds... and be ready for the next round. Rest assured that when lawyering stops paying, "they" are going to be interested in growing and cutting trees again. Our expertise will be our power. It may take a few years but the trees can wait and so can we.

 

[possumtrapper]

Bureaucrats are just people. They respond to peer pressure just like everybody else.

Over my side of the ditch I had an issue with a county road and services overseer after moving into a new area. I went into reception with a recorder and asked for him to be sent to me. When he arrived I introduced myself and made sure he took my card and got my surname right, then told him I'd just driven in from home (and named the road), and why is it that there are 748 pot holes between here and there? How many are there between here and your house?
(One of their many fears is that they will be found out as the incompetents they are, or worse, corrupt and feathering their own nests. Fraud charges? Arghghhhhh!!!!)

There were five or six office staff in there and they were all looking at him. Pressure builds diamonds! Sweat started to pour, and faces went red. They must have spent about 300k on that road, fixing all the potholes, widening it for truck and trailer units etc so we could get gear in and product out. Just from about 2 hours of thought and 1 minute of delivery.

I've taken on a large multinational, multi billion dollar construction company in a similar way, and gotten excellent results. This is what the greenies are doing behind the scenes, and then paying all these wanky "eloquent" speakers (actors) to intimidate you into thinking you're a mouse in the eyes of a rattle snake.

You guys have to find a way of addressing your issues with a bit of mongrel, but without getting to the point where they are thinking they need to call the police. By introducing yourself and making them get your surname, you get them to the point where you just need to email them, and they get their s#$% together right away and you don't need to even go into their office and see how freakin crappy their decor is.

Imagine what you guys could do to them if just 10% of you started visiting them and applying peer pressure like sun screen. The whole office would get talking, they'd talk of a groundswell of public opinion, a "sea change" blah blah blah and they would orient towards what they are supposed to be doing.

 

[floyd]

Well, look at that piece of paper as a work permit


Some fresh out of college foresters get on ready to change the system. By the time they are in a position to change the system they are the system.

Changes in administration have different natural rersource management goals. That happens every 4 or 8 yrs. Not good when one is on a 80- ? yr rotation.

Failure to educate the public that trees are like corn . Sometimes one needs to cut it down & plant more. Not educating that the woods are like the garden. One likes to see it grow. But it gets thinned, so there is a better harvest when it is time to harvest.

Keep It Simple Stupid

 

[Gologit]

Some fresh out of college foresters get on ready to change the system. By the time they are in a position to change the system they are the system.

Exactly right.