Potential Clients Who Don't Return Calls

[Sunrise Guy]

Thanks, man.

One more thing that's important, to me, here: When I give the "I'll meet or beat" line, I ALWAYS follow it with: "any other quote you get from a Certified Arborist with credentials equal to, or surpassing, mine." I also direct the client to my "Comparing Apples to Apples" page on my web site. Check it out, if you want to. I think it does a good job of explaining my take on getting multiple bids for a gig.

 

[teamtree]

Good for you Sunrise. Not sure why you are reverse bashing becuase you gave bad info from the start and we all replied based upon what you originally posted.

Not sure how you figure there are no costs in your job. Did you drive a vehicle to the site? Do you not have any overhead expenses? What about liability insurance? Workers comp on your helper? What about marketing? training? safety supplies? climbing gear? etc. etc.

Not that my accounting background helps me out too much but you are at $29.16 per man hour before any expenses if you did it for $700 and it took 12man hours.

Do you have equipment back at the shop sitting idle while you are doing this job?

But the whole "meet or beat" thing is played out. It may work for some and for some it works really well. I have a guy in my area that lives and dies on that crap. I sell the customer on the level of service we are going to provide. I tell them why we may be a bit more on the estimate than the next guy but they are getting much more. But the whole thing...IMO...is that if you are willing to go lower, than your original price may be too high and you are only willing to come down if someone else give a lower price.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Yeah, there are, of course, other costs involved, as you point out. I pay taxes, liability insurance, health insurance, etc. The hourly rate of $29.17 is correct for the $700 price with 24 man-hours, FWIW. At around $30/hr., I'm happy. I make more on most gigs, but less on some. It all balances out. In the end, you have to look at your standard of living and see if it suits you. Mine does, so I guess I'm doing things right, for me. Sorry about any "reverse bashing."

 

[woodchux]

Your taxes will be much higher than 7.5%

 

[kennertree]

Great news!

I think a big selling point is that you, the certified arborist and company owner, will be the one doing the climbing and making the pruning decisions. I run into a lot of people who buy tree work and the only time a certified arborist sees their trees is from the ground.

I have to agree with you 100%. Most of the companies around here that have a ca on staff, the ca doesn't do the work. The ca just looks at the work and the crew comes back to do the work without the knowledge of proper pruning practices. I use this as a selling point as well and works out great.

 

[clearance]

I have to agree with you 100%. Most of the companies around here that have a ca on staff, the ca doesn't do the work. The ca just looks at the work.......

Because they can't do the work, in many cases, as has been beat almost to death here. The CA is the shiny object for the crows, all they had to do was pass a test and bang, they are THE authority on trees. Hell of a scam, in some cases, not all, but you know what I am talking about.

 

[kennertree]

Because they can't do the work, in many cases, as has been beat almost to death here. The CA is the shiny object for the crows, all they had to do was pass a test and bang, they are THE authority on trees. Hell of a scam, in some cases, not all, but you know what I am talking about.

I get what you're saying clearence and agree somewhat. I think that the certification should require climbing skills as well.

 

[Slvrmple72]

Congrats Sunrise! Glad to hear you thought things out and now you get to have fun in a great old tree. Post pics, I look forward to seeing them. Climb safe,work safe!

 

[mckeetree]

OK, first of all, I did bid this low, as I said in my first post, because I wanted the gig. The big tree is just that great. I want to climb it. It is so amazing.

FWIW, some of you did make me laugh with your suggested prices: $2000-3000 for a ball moss removal and trim gig??!!!! $250-350/hr. for a well-equipped tree company!!!???? Get out of town, literally, 'cuz you would NOT work in Austin for those prices.

Anyway---Yeah, I threw in the "meet or beat," again, because I want to climb the big tree. I will take pics if the gig comes my way.

Funny thing is, the gal just got back to me with a bunch of great, intelligent questions concerning my GL policy, crew, experience, etc. I think I might just put this one in the bag by the end of today. You guys will understand why I came down about three bills on this one, with $1000 being the correct and fair price in the market down here for a two-man gig (even up to twelve hours), when (and if) I get the gig and you see me up at 70' surrounded by this amazing tree's branches.

Edit: AAMOF, I would honestly consider paying the client if she allowed me to just climb the tree for a day or two! The job itself is not going to be rough, at all. It's basically a pick/cut and chuck gig. The climb is the motivating factor, here, for me.

Well just laugh your ass off if you want to but I get $250.00 an hour on a lot of jobs and I'm not that far away from you. I'm not touching anything that takes two days for $700.00 or $1,000.00 either. In fact we did a job last May right in your neck of the woods that took three 8 hour days and paid $8,520.00. That is $355.00 per hour. I have been in this business all my life and I care about trees and tree health but nobody in my organization had better tell me "we bid it cheap because we wanted to climb the tree".

 

[RedlineIt]

Very interesting thread, everyone.

Sunrise guy, there had bloody well be pics forthcoming of this job. I want to see the tree so cool it would be climbed for free! Really!

I'm a mere employee, but there are some days I can't believe I'm paid to do this work, makes up for the next day where the job is just some insanely huge hedge reduction.

But I'll one up you on the customer who won't call back.

After a morning of basic easy climbs doing building clearance for an apartment building, the next job was an arbutus removal in the back yard.

Attached to my signed work order is the Removal Permit, stamped by the Municipality and my office. So we've greased the wheels, gotten the client his permit, all part of the service, part of the cost of doing business here.

We arrive exactly at noon. "OK, break for lunch," I tell the crew, "I'll go check it out."

So I go up and knock on the door. No answer. I stroll around to the back gate, through, and take a look. It's gone. There's the stump, there's where they broke the Rhodo's underneath and there's their crappy clean-up and sawdust on the roof and garage.

So I call my rep and give him the "update." Made his day, I can tell you. Nothing he had to say about it is printable here.

Calls go unanswered, there's a For Sale sign out in front now.

Burned.



RedlineIt

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Well just laugh your ass off if you want to but I get $250.00 an hour on a lot of jobs and I'm not that far away from you. I'm not touching anything that takes two days for $700.00 or $1,000.00 either. In fact we did a job last May right in your neck of the woods that took three 8 hour days and paid $8,520.00. That is $355.00 per hour. I have been in this business all my life and I care about trees and tree health but nobody in my organization had better tell me "we bid it cheap because we wanted to climb the tree".

How many man-hours on that $8520 gig? What did it entail?

With all due respect, I understand your feelings about my climbing desire as it relates to giving a low price, but when you have the "luxury" to do what you want, for whatever reason and/or price, then why shouldn't you go for it? I'm kind of one of those who believes that if you love what you're doing, then it never feels like work. I can't say I love every job I take, probably only a third, or so, but I try to see to it that a few really fun gigs make it into the mix, OK? This is one of those.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Are you a 50/50 partner with your helper? Usually a small owner run company can get away with a helper that's only 12 to $15 per hour. That makes the owners dollars per hour worked a lot higher.

Roger that, on the 50/50. He's far more than a helper. We split all costs. He provides all of his own tools. He also bids some gigs, does some climbing, most of the power pruner cuts. If he left, I could make far more $$, but then I wouldn't have a good friend as a co-worker. There are trade-offs, obviously.

 

[mckeetree]

How many man-hours on that $8520 gig? What did it entail?

With all due respect, I understand your feelings about my climbing desire as it relates to giving a low price, but when you have the "luxury" to do what you want, for whatever reason and/or price, then why shouldn't you go for it? I'm kind of one of those who believes that if you love what you're doing, then it never feels like work. I can't say I love every job I take, probably only a third, or so, but I try to see to it that a few really fun gigs make it into the mix, OK? This is one of those.

One thing is for sure, I don't have the "luxury" to do what I want. I'm into this tree deal so deep I have to make it pay and pay good. Money is addictive, the better you do, the better you seem to want to do.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

One thing is for sure, I don't have the "luxury" to do what I want. I'm into this tree deal so deep I have to make it pay and pay good. Money is addictive, the better you do, the better you seem to want to do.

I'm sorry, man. Try to have some fun. Life is not only about making money. Yeah, I have two daughters in college, a mortgage, other expenses, but I planned things out to where I don't have to sweat and grub for every penny out there. I know many in our business fall prey to the endless cycle of buying bigger and bigger "toys" each year, but I wonder how happy they are. I guess one man's nightmare existence of owing everything to the title holders is another man's dream of living the "good life" at any cost.

 

[tree md]

I got my first call back informing me that I had not won a bid today (that I can recollect). It was a job that involved storm damage on about 5 acres at a Monastery. 340 trees, about 10 to 12 removals and leave everything lay. I figured the job for 2 working weeks (10 days) and gave what I thought was a competitive bid. They didn't want any heavy equipment brought in. Every tree had to be climbed rope and saddle excluding the removals. I figured 2 climbers for 10 days. There are a lot of companies in town for the storm damage working dirt cheap. I bid the job a $80 a tree and gave them a 10% discount for being a religious institution. The bid ended up being $72 a tree for $24480.00. I figured that some out of towner would beat me but decided that I didn't want to work on 5 acres of trees any cheaper than that. If someone else wants it bad enough to work cheaper they can have it.

Anyway, I was happy that the lady had the consideration to call me back and let me know that someone else had won the bid and told her so. She said she will keep my number and give me a call if they have future needs (another clue that the bid was won by an out of towner). I believe that I will end up working for this client in the future.

 

[Rftreeman]

I have learned that if the client intends on giving you the job then they will tell right then and there in most cases but I have had them call me back a month later also but usually I can tell if I'll get it or not, had three people this week do the same thing to me & at this time of year it really ticks me off cause I'm very slow right now.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I got my first call back informing me that I had not won a bid today (that I can recollect). It was a job that involved storm damage on about 5 acres at a Monastery. 340 trees, about 10 to 12 removals and leave everything lay. I figured the job for 2 working weeks (10 days) and gave what I thought was a competitive bid. They didn't want any heavy equipment brought in. Every tree had to be climbed rope and saddle excluding the removals. I figured 2 climbers for 10 days. There are a lot of companies in town for the storm damage working dirt cheap. I bid the job a $80 a tree and gave them a 10% discount for being a religious institution. The bid ended up being $72 a tree for $24480.00. I figured that some out of towner would beat me but decided that I didn't want to work on 5 acres of trees any cheaper than that. If someone else wants it bad enough to work cheaper they can have it.

Anyway, I was happy that the lady had the consideration to call me back and let me know that someone else had won the bid and told her so. She said she will keep my number and give me a call if they have future needs (another clue that the bid was won by an out of towner). I believe that I will end up working for this client in the future.

Life is for learning and I gotta say here that I apparently have a lot to learn. From your numbers, above, it appears that two climbers are handling about two trees per hour for ten days, right? A day is eight hours, here, I take it. OK, so the trees must not be in very bad shape. Climb up, take down some hangers, do a few cuts and move on. A half-hour per tree, unless I'm missing something here. Let ten fall and leave 'em, right? Leave everything. If I were bidding this job, I'd want to make $200/day for myself and my other climber. That's $400/day plus tax, so about $450. Throw in a little extra for gas to the site and a few other things, and I might say $500/day. The total job would be $5000 versus your $24480. Bet I'd get the gig.

Look, I'm not trying to be a wise guy, far from it. I actually feel like a dumb-butt. How can you justify bidding almost $25G's for a gig that sounds like a walk in the park, literally? Again, I am not trying to piss anybody off here. As I said, I have a lot to learn, so start teaching me. With all due respect, I understand we all have expenses but this sounds like the MD who charged me $450 to look down my throat with a fiber optic scope for less than a half-minute to tell me that everything is fine. He wants me to pay for his BMW and his mansion on the hill.

If you hired me and my right-hand man to do your gig, you would walk away with almost $20G's for yourself, and you're not even working the gig, right? I just don't understand how you justify your bid, so, again, clear me up on this.

 

[Rftreeman]

If you hired me and my right-hand man to do your gig, you would walk away with almost $20G's for yourself, and you're not even working the gig, right? I just don't understand how you justify your bid, so, again, clear me up on this.

if you agreed to $500 a day as you stated you would want to make then what's the problem if someone makes $20G's if you agreed on the $500 a day that's what you'd get, this is why I never tell people who help me how much I'm making anymore because they feel like we are "partners" and they should get half or more. so how do you justify worrying about how much I'd make???

 

[Sunrise Guy]

if you agreed to $500 a day as you stated you would want to make then what's the problem if someone makes $20G's if you agreed on the $500 a day that's what you'd get, this is why I never tell people who help me how much I'm making anymore because they feel like we are "partners" and they should get half or more. so how do you justify worrying about how much I'd make???

I don't want this to turn into a hostile type of exchange so I'll back down. If you're cool with making your $20G's, and who wouldn't be for the little amount of work you were bidding on, then more power to you, bro. I have to wonder just how many gigs you honestly do get. I suppose it's like the starving artist who charges $50G's for one of his paintings: "Hey, my price may be high, but I only have to do sell one of these suckers a year!"

 

[Rftreeman]

if I can get it then I have no problem taking it and will sleep very well at night, if I give my bid and they accept it then what's the problem? you can't sit there and tell me if you had the chance to make $20G's or $5G's you'd go for the $5G's because $20 is unjustyfied........give me a break........sounds to me that you are upset that you aren't making the big money....by no means am I making the big money yet but when the chance comes around I'll be damned if I pass on it.
stop worrying about how much someone else is making and go make you own money..........it's that simple........stop paying your helper/friend 50% and you'll make a few bucks. does he split the cost 50/50? probably not.
BTW: I'm not the one who started this thread.