Problem with free standing wood stoves

[anlrolfe]

Damn heat goes straight on up

Heating related:
In my old house the 2nd floor landing had molding placed perfect to blank it off with thick sheets of foam. We were pre-children and the upstairs was just storage.

Absent minded rambling and reminiscence:
It was a late 1800's "shotgun" or "row house" w/ camelback 2nd floor. Every spare penny went into fixing it up. Almost 10 yrs and 2-kids later we flipped it and move to another/better neighborhood. She was an old cold bee-auch(the house). Much insulation, brick work and rebuild, not sure how I did it but I did. I rebuilt back-to-back chimneys lining them and equipping the once open system w/ dampers. They sat 45* in the corners of adjacent rooms w/ exposed brick and made inside like Russian stoves having zig-zag flues absorbing every BTU of heat. Cast iron mantles stripped and repainted w/ high temp. We stayed warm at least 1- winter with little more than scrap pallets. My neighbor was a retired brick mason who was glad to give me pointers and even helped on a few small early projects. I owe him for letting me pick his brain and giving a "bump" when necessary. I'm probably the only electrician in the area that has a set of mahogany levels and brick tongs.

 

[Ambull01]

Heating related:
In my old house the 2nd floor landing had molding placed perfect to blank it off with thick sheets of foam. We were pre-children and the upstairs was just storage.

Absent minded rambling and reminiscence:
It was a late 1800's "shotgun" or "row house" w/ camelback 2nd floor. Every spare penny went into fixing it up. Almost 10 yrs and 2-kids later we flipped it and move to another/better neighborhood. She was an old cold bee-auch(the house). Much insulation, brick work and rebuild, not sure how I did it but I did. I rebuilt back-to-back chimneys lining them and equipping the once open system w/ dampers. They sat 45* in the corners of adjacent rooms w/ exposed brick and made inside like Russian stoves having zig-zag flues absorbing every BTU of heat. Cast iron mantles stripped and repainted w/ high temp. We stayed warm at least 1- winter with little more than scrap pallets. My neighbor was a retired brick mason who was glad to give me pointers and even helped on a few small early projects. I owe him for letting me pick his brain and giving a "bump" when necessary. I'm probably the only electrician in the area that has a set of mahogany levels and brick tongs.

Semper Fi Devil Dog!

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the molding would you? I'd like to see something like that. If only I could just move this chimney over to the next room.

This house was built in the late 1800s too. There's so many things I want to do/change, I'll probably be working on it for the next 30 years until I retire. Definitely may need to upgrade my stove, it's too small for this house. Father in-law bought it for us as a house warming gift so can't really complain. I bet he'll be pissed when he hears we're selling it lol. I would like to buy one those super duper fancy stoves that can burn for 24+ hours. It has to be a smoldering type of burn cycle though to reach that kind of reload times.

I try to pick everyone's brain. Doesn't matter if the person is a true "pro" in his/her profession, some dude on the street, a family member, etc. It's taken me a while but I've gotten pretty good at sifting through the BS advice and I double/triple check all the advice.

Anyways, just rained here and my wood pile is soaked. I baby my stacks and try to drop the tarp over it when it rains and lift the flaps up on sunny/windy days. Got home late last night and forgot to drop the tarp. That's another problem with stoves, they don't like wet firewood.

 

[steved]

I don't know that you will need to slow down rising heat.

Keeping our living room around 80-85 degrees meant the other rooms main floor were 70 and upstairs was a comfortable 65 which for me is much preferable for sleeping. Never felt a draft of hot air going up/cold air coming down the stair well. We also had grates in the ceiling/floor of each room to help air flow.

I get a good rush of cold air coming down the stairs and can cook us out of the second floor if we don't have our six foot ceiling fan chugging away and a single pedestal fan pushing it through the rest of the house. On the other hand, my folks can have the basement 120 degrees, and the first floor is barely above 60 without fans pushing it up the stairs.

It all depends on the house...I think my second floor would be harder to heat if my staircase didn't have a solid wall handrail because that gives the cold air a place to rush down the stairs unimpeded.

 

[steved]

Not sure if it was said yet, lots of reading, but have you tried to run your blower on the furnace to circulate air around your house?

Unfortunately, some furnaces won't run the blower alone...mine will only run for a few minutes before the circuitry shuts off the blower, for testing.

I'm going to install small fans in my cold air returns to get some air flow...my dad had great success using a single 8 inch fan on a rheostat.

 

[jwilly]

Air sealing the upper floors will do wonders. The heat is going upstairs and out of the house bringing colder air from the lowest parts of the house. Have a door blower test done so the air leaks can be identified. Seal the largest first. If you seal up the top and bottom you will see the best improvement. The energy efficiency classes I took say that air sealing if more important than insulating, it is the easiest and least expensive starting place and is definitely a DIY project. Having some closed cell spray foam sprayed in the basement on the rim joist and the stone foundation to below the level of the dirt outside will work wonders.

We have a 170 year old farmhouse that has been cosmetically remodeled over the years. We had a blower door test done and with some caulk, spray foam and a few sheets of rock we lowered the air leakage by 60%. I had the basement rim joist and top of foundation spray foamed and the cellar stays at about 60, we have a propane boiler in addition to the wood stove. Down to about 0 the stove will keep the house comfortable and the far bedroom at about 60. When it drops below 0 we shut the bedroom door and let the boiler handle it.

The air sealing produced remarkable results. And we haven't had any frozen pipes.

 

[anlrolfe]

You wouldn't happen to have a picture of the molding would you?

Sorry but no. The house was American bond. Three layers of brick with joists inserted into grooves in the inner two layers. The stair was on an outside wall with 1-joist along the outer edge that got boxed around. The hand rail was in two sections 1-low up to ceiling height with a break at the transition around the floor joist. The molding was just a piece of base board inverted to kind of give a crown-mold effect.. a bit like this http://www.homedepot.com/p/Woodgrai...lding-Door-Pack-108378/202086607?N=5yc1vZara1

 

[Whitespider]

Unfortunately, some furnaces won't run the blower alone...mine will only run for a few minutes before the circuitry shuts off the blower, for testing.

What sort of furnace is that??
Unless it's an antique, there should be a contact for thermostat voltage that runs the blower for central A/C if and when added (it can also be used for the "continuous fan" switch on the t-stat). It's independent of anything else in or on the furnace... it bypasses heating/furnace related "circuitry" and just runs the blower (usually on a different speed than heating). The "continuous fan" switch does require an added wire from the t-stat to the control board on the furnace (or, you can just jumper it at the control board if your t-stat don't have the switch).
*

 

[steved]

What sort of furnace is that??
Unless it's an antique, there should be a contact for thermostat voltage that runs the blower for central A/C if and when added (it can also be used for the "continuous fan" switch on the t-stat). It's independent of anything else in or on the furnace... it bypasses heating/furnace related "circuitry" and just runs the blower (usually on a different speed than heating). The "continuous fan" switch does require an added wire from the t-stat to the control board on the furnace (or, you can just jumper it at the control board if your t-stat don't have the switch).
*

Some contractor grade deal...its not that old, the house is less than 20 year old. Its not the first one I've had do this either...

My heat pump runs at half speed when you set the fan to "on", but my furnace runs the fan less than five minutes then shuts off. I asked the heat pump installer about the fan on the furnace, he told me it was normal.

Again, not everything fits on mold...

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[Whitespider]

My heat pump runs at half speed when you set the fan to "on", but my furnace runs the fan less than five minutes then shuts off.

Ahhhhh..... because of the heat pump setup you need to add an accessory continuous fan relay, which bypasses the heat pump setup.
If you have the installation manual for the furnace it will have directions on how to install it... it may even be a "plug 'n' play" accessory board from the furnace manufacturer.
*

 

[c5rulz]

I've read this thread quickly.

One thing I didn't see is that the difference between a modern gas furnace and a free standing wood stove is outside combustion air is ducted to the gas furnace and the exhausted out the house. No inside air is lost to the process. The heat from the het exchanger goes to heat the house.

A wood burner is taking inside heated air, combusting it and sending it up the flue creating a vacuum in the house that is made up by air infiltration from the outside. The harder you run the woodstove the more makeup air from the outside comes in. The colder it is outside the more heat you need out of the stove a vicious circle is created. Kind of the same thing as a fireplace but to a lesser degree.

The wood burner needs combustion air from the outside to be more efficient.

 

[steved]

Ahhhhh..... because of the heat pump setup you need to add an accessory continuous fan relay, which bypasses the heat pump setup.
If you have the installation manual for the furnace it will have directions on how to install it... it may even be a "plug 'n' play" accessory board from the furnace manufacturer.
*

Nah, they are two completely standalone units...the heat pump does the second floor, the furnace does everything else. They share nothing.

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[Del_]

I've used a central hot air

The wood burner needs combustion air from the outside to be more efficient.

Nope.

That has been proven to be false.

It makes little if any difference.

 

[zogger]

I've used a central hot air


Nope.

That has been proven to be false.

It makes little if any difference.

If your house is tight it makes a difference. Superinsulated homes have planned air in and out with a heat exchanger.

If the house is real leaky, it won't make much difference. Mine is so leaky, meh...

 

[slowp]

My woodstove is fed from "outside". It has a hose feeding air from the crawlspace up into the stove. I think this is/was required for mobile homes and now is standard for new construction. My house is pretty air tight so it has tiny vents in a few of the windows that can be opened or closed, and a whole house fan which kicks on to keep fresh air in the house. The fan comes on 4 times a day and I had to learn to shut if off if I needed to open the woodstove door. It'll suck the smoke out of the door and into the house. I think that fan might be required by code too. I'm not sure. Don't move here!

 

[Whitespider]

Nah, they are two completely standalone units...

So you're talkin' 'bout two separate thermostats, connected to two separate units, and two separate continuous fan switches when you posted... "My heat pump runs at half speed when you set the fan to "on", but my furnace runs the fan less than five minutes then shuts off"??
If that's the case, especially if central A/C is installed... you still need an accessory continuous fan relay that bypasses the timer or heat sensor (the timer keeps the fan running for a specified length of time after burner shuts off, the heat sensor stops the blower if no heat is detected). Basically, what the relay does is put 115 volts (or 230 volts depending) directly to one of the blower contacts (completely bypassing all the other circuitry). If the furnace goes into heat mode (or the A/C goes into cool mode), the furnace and/or A/C circuitry takes control, voltage through the relay is either bypassed or re-routed, depending. It's not a complicated or difficult modification. That's how continuous fan works, it shouldn't be using any other circuitry, it's just "fan".... it's just line voltage to the blower.
*

 

[steved]

So you're talkin' 'bout two separate thermostats, connected to two separate units, and two separate continuous fan switches when you posted... "My heat pump runs at half speed when you set the fan to "on", but my furnace runs the fan less than five minutes then shuts off"??
If that's the case, especially if central A/C is installed... you still need an accessory continuous fan relay that bypasses the timer or heat sensor (the timer keeps the fan running for a specified length of time after burner shuts off, the heat sensor stops the blower if no heat is detected). Basically, what the relay does is put 115 volts (or 230 volts depending) directly to one of the blower contacts (completely bypassing all the other circuitry). If the furnace goes into heat mode (or the A/C goes into cool mode), the furnace and/or A/C circuitry takes control, voltage through the relay is either bypassed or re-routed, depending. It's not a complicated or difficult modification. That's how continuous fan works, it shouldn't be using any other circuitry, it's just "fan".... it's just line voltage to the blower.
*

I have two completely standalone heat/AC units (TWO)...the propane furnace (w/ 1.5 ton AC coil) was installed with the house, the 2.5 ton heat pump (with added 10k resistive grid backup heater) was installed in 2010. They are not connected, do not have smart thermostats, the only reason I even mentioned the heat pump was that it will run the fan continuously and that the guy that installed it said my propane furnace was normal.

The furnace could be hotwired, but its circuitry will not allow for continuous fan operation as it stands.

Thank you, have a nice day...

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[Whitespider]

The furnace could be hotwired, but its circuitry will not allow for continuous fan operation as it stands.
Thank you, have a nice day...

I wasn't talkin' 'bout "hot-wiring"... I was talkin' about a manufacturer approved accessory addition (there will be instructions in the furnace installation manual). Sometimes the manufacturer has a "kit" available, sometimes they say "procure locally". Just because your "heat pump installer" says that's "normal" doesn't mean it can't be corrected (and it should be, IMO).
I was just trying to help... you're welcome... have a nice day...
*

 

[steved]

I wasn't talkin' 'bout "hot-wiring"... I was talkin' about a manufacturer approved accessory addition (there will be instructions in the furnace installation manual). Sometimes the manufacturer has a "kit" available, sometimes they say "procure locally". Just because your "heat pump installer" says that's "normal" doesn't mean it can't be corrected (and it should be, IMO).
I was just trying to help... you're welcome... have a nice day...
*

As big of a POS this no-name furnace is, I would much rather watch it hit the scrap pile than sink any additional money into it.

One of my requirements for the next furnace (besides a higher BTU/tonnage unit) is that the fan operate continuously when demanded. That may be as soon as this summer...



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[c5rulz]

I've used a central hot air


Nope.

That has been proven to be false.

It makes little if any difference.

Well I made that comment off the top of my head. Researching further it seems there are two schools of thought. One based on Science and another on well, I don't know what.

From what I read, there is no down side to supplying outside combustion air to a wood stove (if it is possible).

Here is a quote from an expert:

Input from an Energy Star Home Builder:
Loved your Library articles on outside combustion air. I live in Western Wisconsin, where many of the fireplace installers still seem to be stuck on burning room air. They persist in singing the old song about the imagined potential ill effects of sealed combustion, such as backdrafting through the intake pipe during periods of wind-induced downdrafting. My business is pressure diagnostics, but even with my credentials, I can't manage to pound the science into their heads or change their protocol.
Our state has produced over 16,000 high performance homes. These homes are pressure tested (blower door) and surprisingly tight on average. We use ASHRAE 62.2 whole house ventilation standards (and test to verify). I tested a Habitat home today and it was 0.63ACH50 or 0.056CFM50/ft2 shell. That's friggen tight. Once the clothes dryer and kitchen ventilation are installed, the level of depressurization will, at times, easily drop below -30Pa. We allow only sealed combustion appliances and mechanical equipment with outside combustion air, so who cares? Even at that extreme level of room depressurization, we've had not one complaint state-wide about any backdrafting. (Except for ones inadvertently set up to burn room air).
I'd rather not live in an over-pressurized home: who needs warm moist air being pushed through the shell? Yet some of the same local yokels mentioned above are installing mechanical equipment to pressurize the house because they have trouble with stove and fireplace drafting! All they need to do is install all combustion appliances with outside combustion air and their problems, the homeowners problems, and my problems go away.
Eric Skinner, Partner
Home Performance with Energy Star
Focus New Homes Program

From, https://chimneysweeponline.com/hooa.htm




608 792 [email protected]

 

[Del_]

Well I made that comment off the top of my head. Researching further it seems there are two schools of thought. One based on Science and another on well, I don't know what.

From what I read, there is no down side to supplying outside combustion air to a wood stove (if it is possible).

Here is a quote from an expert:

Input from an Energy Star Home Builder:
Loved your Library articles on outside combustion air. I live in Western Wisconsin, where many of the fireplace installers still seem to be stuck on burning room air. They persist in singing the old song am

Fireplace installers?

Glad you mentioned science. Here's the outdoor air myth exposed:

http://woodheat.org/outdoor-air-supplies.html