Professional recommendations dropping Huge dead oak

[calamari]

If you look at the title of the post, he was looking for professional advice on how to safely remove this tree. I haven't seen a single professional recommend cutting from a ladder.

And you still haven't. TWO LIMBS. His plan changed after he thought about it more.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

And you still haven't. TWO LIMBS. His plan changed after he thought about it more.

Just so I understand, you aren't recommending he cut the entire tree from a ladder, just "TWO LIMBS." What is the upper limit on when cutting from a ladder becomes an unsafe practice, just for future reference? Is it 3? 5?

 

[grizz55chev]

Yes I've cut down trees much bigger than what he has and no I didn't do it from a ladder. He's not suggesting that he wants to cut the tree down from a ladder, just the two limbs.
Yes, escape paths are critical and need to be provided. Unless that oak is rotten someplace the likelihood it will twist or barberchair seems remote to me if the tree is solid. It can, however,be solid at its base but have rotten limbs higher up that are ready to break off.
First thing to do is get a heavy rope or strong cable up in one of those limbs hewants to cut since they're the longest and give the best mechanical advantage. Ther rope should be out a ways from the trunk that is long enough that if the tree fell it wouldn't hit the truck. Pull on that limb at right angles to its length in a series of short sharp pulls to set up a harmonic increase in its swaying. That should help knock any dead stuff out of the tree and anything the tree is growing into. If that doesn't make anything fall out of the tree, chainsawing and the vibration of the limb coming off probably won't either.
And actually, "Bless your heart" grizz55chev because you fit the hidden meaning in the phrase more than I do I think.

You're giving advice on felling a potential hazard tree without the knowledge necessary to do it in a safe and competent way. The reaction you got to your first post reflects this, irresponsible to give bad advice in my opinion. I would seek the advice from a professional arborist who has actual experience and I Guarantee he won't do it as you suggest, prove me wrong. A good arborist will come out and drop that tree in under an hr, safely, and cleanly for most likely under $500. That would be a licensed and insured guy, not someone with a chainsaw that thinks he can do it for less. YMMV.

 

[fishdrivel]

Is there a single professional arborist here that does not know how to get this tree down safely?
How many professional arborists here are comfortable with having a layperson take this tree down?

I am retired and have seen a lot in my years.
I kept a scrapbook in the Bay Area of California in the 70's. It was filled with unqualified people's tree mishaps.
I discontinued it when it got too gruesome.

I would not dream of hiring a climber and turning him loose on that tree before reviewing his work.
Why would any of us want to give advice to someone that could get him killed?

Seems like i unintentionally upset another poster. That was not my intent. My intent is "safety first"

 

[fishdrivel]

I'm not trying to insult you or anything, and I'm sure you are perhaps the most expert ladder-climber/cutter that I know of. Still, that post is just chocked full of really bad advice.

1. If you cannot tie in to the tree or other safe aerial point, you shouldn't be on the ladder to begin with.
2. ANSI standards say to always use two hands on a saw. If you cannot figure out a way to do it with two hands, you are doing it wrong. Easier, perhaps, with one hand, but still wrong.
3. All that commentary about making the ladder safe, and you didn't even mention ladder jacks to compensate for unlevel ground?
4. OMG. You advise not to look up and get chips in your eyes, possibly falling as a result? Haven't you heard of safety glasses?
5. What good is hanging on to a ladder with one hand if the branch knocks it out from under you? I rarely use a ladder and chainsaw at the same time. It is a fundamentally flawed plan.

Seriously. You need to improve your safety recommendations. They were perhaps ok about 50 years ago, but times have changed.

Just for the record, they were not ok 50 years ago.....

 

[pdqdl]

HE WANTS TO CUT TWO LIMBS!!! NOT THE ENTIRE TREE FROM A LADDER!!!
There are no fences, houses, power lines, barns, cattle, tractors, small children, rare plants or animals that would hurt cutting THOSE TWO LIMBS! He wants to move the c/g farther onto one side to be sure it goes the way he wants it to go and then he'll cut down what he says is a solid dead oak while standing solidly on the ground.
This isn't Cirque du Soleil trapeze work. Yes, he could rent a boom truck whose bucket would be probably at the height he needs to cut those limbs before it's even moved from the transport position. He could use it to cut the tree down in pieces but he can drop it whole once the two limbs are gone.
I guess basic reading comprehension isn't part of the abilities of a lot of people on this site. I'd love to see how far the separation distance is that they maintain between any ladders they own and their chainsaws because you know "ladders can kill you if you have a chainsaw."

It only takes one mistake on a single limb to get hurt. I am very expert at cutting limbs, and I don't use ladders to do it unless I am very confidant I won't get busted up when the branch invariably heads for the ladder I am standing on.

If anyone ever needs to ask for recommendations on how to cut on a tree, they have already disqualified themselves from doing it on a ladder. Seriously!

Ladders are only for professionals, and that only as a quicker, easier shortcut for what they know is the right way.

 

[pdqdl]

I would agree and disagree with points in both arguments.
Ladders and tree’s only go together if your trying to make a fail video for YouTube. I have seen climbers use them to reach the first union but never for cutting.
If you actually believe that a top handle climbing saw can’t be used safely with one hand you’ve obviously never climbed. There are plenty of safety standards that are just wrong. Do you also believe back handle saws should be started on the ground with one foot on the handle as even Stihl recommends. How could you safely do that when 10 metres up a tree or even in a EWP bucket. Should you lower the saw to be started on the ground and then haul it back up running?

Like I said, ANSI standards call for using two hands. If, as a professional, you choose to ignore those standards (as I often do, using my right hand with no thumb or forefinger), then you are still doing it wrong.

I discovered years ago that whenever I thought I had to do a cut with one hand, I was poorly positioned and not doing it as safely as I should be. If you don't know how to get into a safe position for two-handed saw use, then you need to learn a bit more. Conversely, time is money. Cut one-handed and toss with the other is a business standard for good productivity. It's important, however, to understand the difference between doing it the right way, and just the fast & easy way.

 

[pdqdl]

I would agree and disagree with points in both arguments.
Ladders and tree’s only go together if your trying to make a fail video for YouTube. I have seen climbers use them to reach the first union but never for cutting.
If you actually believe that a top handle climbing saw can’t be used safely with one hand you’ve obviously never climbed. There are plenty of safety standards that are just wrong. Do you also believe back handle saws should be started on the ground with one foot on the handle as even Stihl recommends. How could you safely do that when 10 metres up a tree or even in a EWP bucket. Should you lower the saw to be started on the ground and then haul it back up running?

You don't spend much time reading the ANSI standards, do you?
There are allowances for running a saw aloft.

My understanding is the guys up in British Columbia have some really crazy standards that are cast in stone, however. Stuff like running a saw with one hand is instant unemployment. Perhaps someone from that area will sound off?

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Like I said, ANSI standards call for using two hands. If, as a professional, you choose to ignore those standards (as I often do, using my right hand with no thumb or forefinger), then you are still doing it wrong.

I discovered years ago that whenever I thought I had to do a cut with one hand, I was poorly positioned and not doing it as safely as I should be. If you don't know how to get into a safe position for two-handed saw use, then you need to learn a bit more. Conversely, time is money. Cut one-handed and toss with the other is a business standard for good productivity. It's important, however, to understand the difference between doing it the right way, and just the fast & easy way.

It reminds me of my old mentor always saying, " Boy, when you're up in the tree, no matter the question, the answer is almost always take 2 more steps up..."

 

[lone wolf]

I'm not trying to insult you or anything, and I'm sure you are perhaps the most expert ladder-climber/cutter that I know of. Still, that post is just chocked full of really bad advice.

1. If you cannot tie in to the tree or other safe aerial point, you shouldn't be on the ladder to begin with.
2. ANSI standards say to always use two hands on a saw. If you cannot figure out a way to do it with two hands, you are doing it wrong. Easier, perhaps, with one hand, but still wrong.
3. All that commentary about making the ladder safe, and you didn't even mention ladder jacks to compensate for unlevel ground?
4. OMG. You advise not to look up and get chips in your eyes, possibly falling as a result? Haven't you heard of safety glasses?
5. What good is hanging on to a ladder with one hand if the branch knocks it out from under you? I rarely use a ladder and chainsaw at the same time. It is a fundamentally flawed plan.

Seriously. You need to improve your safety recommendations. They were perhaps ok about 50 years ago, but times have changed.

4. you should be cutting overhead anyway.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

4. you should be cutting overhead anyway.

Hey, Wolf, did you spellchecker this post?

 

[hseII]

I would agree and disagree with points in both arguments.
Ladders and tree’s only go together if your trying to make a fail video for YouTube. I have seen climbers use them to reach the first union but never for cutting.
If you actually believe that a top handle climbing saw can’t be used safely with one hand you’ve obviously never climbed. There are plenty of safety standards that are just wrong. Do you also believe back handle saws should be started on the ground with one foot on the handle as even Stihl recommends. How could you safely do that when 10 metres up a tree or even in a EWP bucket. Should you lower the saw to be started on the ground and then haul it back up running?

Saws have a chain brake for starting aloft.

In the States OSHA is based on ANSI standards which have a track record of being written in blood.


Top handles are the most dangerous type saws because people try to 1 hand them: there’s a reason everyone with sound judgement discourages 1 handing a saw.

Ladders are for accessing only, do not use a saw while on a ladder.

2 points of tie in are required per ANSI regulations for a reason.

 

[hseII]

Well, I guess I can say I got people thinking. Most didn't look back at the OP's pictures and his question and I didn't see anyone in the videos use the ladder the way I described. The OP wanted to remove two limbs on the tree to shift the weight and center of gravity by doing it on a ladder. He didn't want to climb a ladder and cut the tree down.
If you're foolish enough to not make even a single under cut on the limb, as not seen in the videos, so that when you make the top cut it splits the limb, well I'm not going to list everything that must be done to avoid making the evening news. The OP said he checked the soundness of the tree and it's dead and dry so not likely to split . It can however break but the odds are reduced it being an oak and it's just two relatively small limbs he's interested in.
Yes, you can park your truck or set your ladder directly under the limb you want to remove and get hurt but again I'm assuming a minimum amount of intelligence on the OP's part. Perhaps that's being too generous given the comments from some who replied to my suggestion. There are apparently a lot of people who are the ones who start their saws on the ground and gingerly have it roped up to them. I don't know because I've never seen that done. I'd guess those people would be wearing several layers of orange kevlar, have not one but two condoms on and an ambulance standing by before they leave the house every morning...you know, "just in case."
Tieing the ladder to the tree basically changes it from a ladder to a set of stairs. The limbs he wants to remove aren't way up in a tree and there's nothing for the limbs to fall on if he uses even a little good sense and puts the ladder where the limb would have to ignore the law of gravity and jump sideways to hit him. There seems to be a ton of trees he can rope the limbs to if there's a concern about how they are going to fall but they look like limbs that can't possibly snap back or go anywhere but straight down. He doesn't have to cut the limbs next to the trunk because it's dead. Just be sure to make even a slight undercut to break hinge fibers on the limbs underside
I noticed that some admit to using a top handle saw with one hand while limbing on the ground. I'll look forward to seeing them singled out for a safety talk too.
Here's my disclaimer.
If you aren't comfortable using a chainsaw and the whirring chain scares you, don't do it. That's different than having respect for the saw and what it can do.
If you haven't used a variety of chainsaws including top handle saws, don't do it.
If you think the instructions saw manufacturers put in their owners manuals are written by people who use the saws, they aren't. They're written by lawyers who are hired to limit the potential liability for those that make tools that can maim and kill. They don't always, but they can do you harm which in turn results in law suits in our country.
My last comment is the one I liked earlier. Just move the trail and let it rot in place.

Big limbs aren’t predictable on live trees: add in this one being dead & the ladder thing just gets worse.

Please don’t cut off a ladder @FR3.


If those large limbs are going to cause trouble if they are attached during this tree’s fall, the smart thing would be to have a good climber come by & take those big limbs off for you. A few hundred $ is far cheaper than an accident.

Then fell the tree with its lean.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[FR3]

Just to CLARIFY FOR EVERYONE… I the OP NEVER once said anything about wanting to cut any part of this tree from a ladder. (Pretty sure the first time it was even mentioned in this post it was a sarcastic joke) in response to my STUPID comment of cutting a limb from the tailgate.

I’ve fallen trees and cut firewood for 25+ years, several oaks roughly the same size, just never fallen a dead oak of this size. Which is why I made the post in the first place.

My reason for wanting to remove the 1 large limb is for two reasons.
1- to ensure gravity helps take it in the direction of its natural lean
2 - minimize the chance of it hanging up in a nearby tree and either breaking off or causing the trunk to twist coming off the stump.

Hoping to get to it next weekend, even though I couldn’t budge the limbs pulling by hand with a rope, I plan to get another rope in the branches and route it through a pulley attached to the base of a nearby tree and give it a few tugs with the gator or truck from a more than safe distance to see if I can break them off and hopefully any other hazards safely.

I 100% plan to clear all the small brush around the trunk and clear a min of 2 escape routes.

I appreciate the PROFESSIONAL responses, and will certainly take the input into consideration.

I do have a question about the amount of hinge wood that should be used in this circumstance considering it is extremely dry.
Obviously it’s not going to react the same as a live or recently dead oak tree.

Should the standard amount of hinge wood be sufficient or would you leave more or less?

 

[Maintenance supervisor]

I cut dangerous trees for work, and I would never recommend climbing one if your not professionally trained. I don't climb and it can be limiting ,but I have friends who do , who I would call if it was necessary.
Im gonna suggest a crazy thing that I have had success with, not chainsaw related.
When a threatening branch is overhead I'll get a 12 guage with full metal jackets ( sabot rifled slug) and shoot the damn thing off. Its basically how I got every Christmas tree as a kid.
For a twelve inch limb it might take 4-5 shots depending on your aim but even at that it'll be enough if it doesn't drop to have a rope already in it (please get a good rope)to pull it down. If you have access to a larger caliber have at it and be aware of trajectory.
Remember the best place to be is no where around the tree when dropping large limbs.
Maybe this isn't a Professional suggestion but it is safer than climbing a tree for you.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Just to CLARIFY FOR EVERYONE… I the OP NEVER once said anything about wanting to cut any part of this tree from a ladder. (Pretty sure the first time it was even mentioned in this post it was a sarcastic joke) in response to my STUPID comment of cutting a limb from the tailgate.

I’ve fallen trees and cut firewood for 25+ years, several oaks roughly the same size, just never fallen a dead oak of this size. Which is why I made the post in the first place.

My reason for wanting to remove the 1 large limb is for two reasons.
1- to ensure gravity helps take it in the direction of its natural lean
2 - minimize the chance of it hanging up in a nearby tree and either breaking off or causing the trunk to twist coming off the stump.

Hoping to get to it next weekend, even though I couldn’t budge the limbs pulling by hand with a rope, I plan to get another rope in the branches and route it through a pulley attached to the base of a nearby tree and give it a few tugs with the gator or truck from a more than safe distance to see if I can break them off and hopefully any other hazards safely.

I 100% plan to clear all the small brush around the trunk and clear a min of 2 escape routes.

I appreciate the PROFESSIONAL responses, and will certainly take the input into consideration.

I do have a question about the amount of hinge wood that should be used in this circumstance considering it is extremely dry.
Obviously it’s not going to react the same as a live or recently dead oak tree.

Should the standard amount of hinge wood be sufficient or would you leave more or less?

Great post. A few thoughts...
1. Considering the location, absolutely shake rattle and roll that canopy as much as possible, although the whole gator truck thing is probably overkill. The only exception would be any limbs that could possibly hang up on the way down. Those I would work to snap off pre fell if possible.

2. As far as the "hinge" goes... a dead tree does not "hinge".... that implies bent fibers from a live tree bending over rather than snapping.... you won't get that on a dead tree. What I would do is slightly pretension the tree with a rope, whether with a come along or a simple truckers hitch, depending on your assessment of the overall balance of the tree, after setting the notch. After starting the back cut, set a wedge as soon as possible. Continue the back cut until the first sign of loosening of that wedge. At that point, immediately retreat... the tree is moving the right direction. At that point, circle around and finish the pull with what ever MA you have set up, and the instant that starts to go slack, run like hell.

 

[TheJollyLogger]

Also, forgot to mention, on that size tree I would position my backcut a minimum of 3" above my notch.

 

[Cogito]

If I didn't reside on the opposite side of the planet I would probably sneak in and cut it down for him. Though you Americans have an unhealthy obsession with guns. Wouldn't want to take a chainsaw to a gun fight.

 

[calamari]

I am very expert at cutting limbs,

An expert speaks.

and I don't use ladders to do it unless I am very confidant I won't get busted up when the branch invariably heads for the ladder I am standing on.

But wait! An expert acknowledges he does it when the situation warrants it and it's safe exactly what I suggested. If it isn't safe and/or you don't feel comfortable, Don't Do It!

Ladders are only for professionals, and that only as a quicker, easier shortcut for what they know is the right way.

Oh, oh! Now you're going to be lectured at too!
Here in California with PG&E's responsibility for major fires and multiple deaths, there is an aggressive program of tree limbing and removal around power lines. There are squadrons of bucket trucks and crews out and about in my area providing lots of opportunities for me to just sit and watch them work. No, they don't use ladders because they have bucket trucks but they do use small saws of various designs. They often cut with one hand while directing the limb's fall with the other. They are licensed, insured and work for several reputable companies all using that technique. They all seem to have all their arms, legs and fingers so perhaps it's not an instant firing offense or worse death, as implied.
When you ask a doctor why your head hurts he'll say he needs Xrays, blood panels and maybe an MRI. Ask a firewood cutter and he'll say he thinks it's the 8 nails you shot into your head with a nail gun trying to commit suicide. Mostly true story.
Ask a bunch of arborists and you're going to get the standard reply that you need to hire an arborist to remove the two limbs for a few hundred dollars. I'm old so a few hundred dollars means a lot to me resulting in my original suggestion.
Somebody asked what's the tallest ladder I've used and I think it was a 24' extension ladder that I rented. I only used it to set a line high in a Madrone that had an oak growing almost all the way around it that my friend wanted to keep. We had to cut most of the way through the Madrone and then jerk it out of the oak. It was about 18" in dia. where the oak grew around it. I wouldn't cut from that tall a ladder.
Go out into the Central Valley at the right time of year and you'll see all sorts of tree pruning and trimming done from some very tall ladders. They sometimes use small chainsaws to remove broken or diseased limbs from very big walnut trees...from ladders that aren't tied down.
I only use the standard 14' or so extension ladder that with a proper overhang only gives about a 10' working height. That's more than enough for the OP's limbs. I don't do it often but I'm comfortable doing it and will again in the near future.
I'm going to my friends place today to see about cutting down a big broken off oak that is hung up in some small pines. I'm feel confident that I will do something thought to be wrong. Pictures later.

 

[Cogito]

Wow, I stirred the waking of the Wolf. You shall pay dearly for that thumbs up when I start peppering you with questions about the two 201’s I’m rebuilding.