proper pruning 75' tulip

[treeseer]

"and about cutting live limbs on the main trunk their is just instances where its necessary if you get two that are growing so closely together or into each other and have no dominant lateral to take it back to i would never just leave it a stub. if left you will wind up with a worse problem rubbing and so on. that will open up the window for disease and decay."

On a mature tree, you'd have to look at decay and imbalance vs. the issues with rubbing, which seem less problematic, overall.

"i mean theirs a million ways to skin a cat if thats your method for getting strain off the tree during wind and branch tips and your obtaining good results go for it. is their any type of literature backing it up?"

Lots of published literature on reduction cuts--see the research by gilman and grabosky and dahle etc. etc. in the journal. tons of work in europe, also read the june issue of arborist news the last 2 years. also see gilman's pruning guide 3rd edition p 81-84. What's this, those money grubbers put out a new edition? :msp_ohmy: LXT's gonna really flip now--what is there to say about tree work that we did not learn in 1986?

Re thinning interiors of deadwood, pin oaks and honey locust are very different from red oaks and tulip trees. I do not fly a bucket but they are very useful for crown reduction.

 

[lxt]

"and about cutting live limbs on the main trunk their is just instances where its necessary if you get two that are growing so closely together or into each other and have no dominant lateral to take it back to i would never just leave it a stub. if left you will wind up with a worse problem rubbing and so on. that will open up the window for disease and decay."

On a mature tree, you'd have to look at decay and imbalance vs. the issues with rubbing, which seem less problematic, overall.

"i mean theirs a million ways to skin a cat if thats your method for getting strain off the tree during wind and branch tips and your obtaining good results go for it. is their any type of literature backing it up?"

Lots of published literature on reduction cuts--see the research by gilman and grabosky and dahle etc. etc. in the journal. tons of work in europe, also read the june issue of arborist news the last 2 years. also see gilman's pruning guide 3rd edition p 81-84. What's this, those money grubbers put out a new edition? :msp_ohmy: LXT's gonna really flip now--what is there to say about tree work that we did not learn in 1986?

Re thinning interiors of deadwood, pin oaks and honey locust are very different from red oaks and tulip trees. I do not fly a bucket but they are very useful for crown reduction.

#1 this aint Europe
#2 3rd edition???? LOL, how many more will there be before they get it right???
#3 1986...........Seer, improving the industry is one thing & advances forward are always a good thing, BUT.....why is it the authors in latter publications contradict what they said in a previous one? Ohh...thats right (science, technological advances, etc..) So Now all those 1st & 2nd editions are garbage cause the 3rd one trumps em?? What a ####ing joke!! you keep buying books that will be obsolete.....wow theres that word again!

#4 Really, you dont fly a bucket?? I would of never guessed:msp_ohmy: , maybe you could take pictures of some one flying a bucket 4 years ago to match the pictures of the tree wounds you wanted to show us in the other thread

Matt, I have trimmed in Mt Leb, upper St Clair, fox chapel, etc.. & you are right.........even if it was a tulip (like this species has a different standard) you would be thrown out of there!!! C`mon Seer.........& you consult? I know plenty like you, cant do the work so they read a little, get an ounce of knowledge & then go out BS people for money!!



LXT...............

 

[mattfr12]

Matt, I have trimmed in Mt Leb, upper St Clair, fox chapel, etc.. & you are right.........even if it was a tulip (like this species has a different standard) you would be thrown out of there!!! C`mon Seer.........& you consult? I know plenty like you, cant do the work so they read a little, get an ounce of knowledge & then go out BS people for money!!



LXT...............

Ya thats why i have to view the information as next to worthless because the people that pay the big bucks like cities and boroughs and so one wouldn't let you even dream of doing something like this. and the people that say what goes and doesn't are Cert arbs and BCMA's.

 

[treeseer]

... improving the industry is one thing & advances forward are always a good thing, BUT.....why is it the authors in latter publications contradict what they said in a previous one? Ohh...thats right (science, technological advances, etc..)

Yes that stuff happens. That means people gotta think to keep up. Darn inconvenient but there you are.

re the rest, I'll show you mine if you show me yours! Here's 1 of dozens in the last 7 years.
Pics are of my work, or my subcontractors following my specs (last pic is the Tree Machine, who used to post on this forum until the smell got too bad)--where's yours?View attachment 210649

btw anyone can go to the ISA site and download FREE. What was that about money grubbers???

 

[Ed Roland]

All this vitriol is pointless :msp_confused:

Excellent article Guy. I liked it then and i like it now. Preservation strategies are likely to confound removalists, tho. Especially those that denounce the revision of scientific data.

 

[treeseer]

"All this vitriol is pointless :msp_confused:"

I agree, but it seems to define AS now. It's hard not to get sucked in; I'm trying. :mad2:

"Excellent article Guy. I liked it then and i like it now."

so does that mean you like pruning now? :msp_tongue:
Hate to say it but I do too.The Re-Re theme was just so easy to follow (amazing that the only letter it generated was from the Brit who claimed ownership of 'Retrenchment Pruning and demanded props for it).

We'll have to visit that car dealer if you ever pull a Barney Fife and cmon up to the big city.
If I had to pick just one to take to the grave that may be it. At the least it serves as a prompt to frame suggestions for the 2013 revision, with which you are on board right? uttahere2:

"Preservation strategies are likely to confound removalists, tho. Especially those that denounce the revision of scientific data."

Data, ergo Conclusions and Standards, too. Can confoundment conclude con clarification? :msp_unsure: but yes a horse living near a lake can still die of thirst.

 

[superjunior]

Yes that stuff happens. That means people gotta think to keep up. Darn inconvenient but there you are.

re the rest, I'll show you mine if you show me yours! Here's 1 of dozens in the last 7 years.
Pics are of my work, or my subcontractors following my specs (last pic is the Tree Machine, who used to post on this forum until the smell got too bad)--where's yours?View attachment 210649

btw anyone can go to the ISA site and download FREE. What was that about money grubbers???

that was a good read :msp_thumbup:

 

[mattfr12]

"All this vitriol is pointless :msp_confused:"

I agree, but it seems to define AS now. It's hard not to get sucked in; I'm trying. :mad2:

"Excellent article Guy. I liked it then and i like it now."

so does that mean you like pruning now? :msp_tongue:
Hate to say it but I do too.The Re-Re theme was just so easy to follow (amazing that the only letter it generated was from the Brit who claimed ownership of 'Retrenchment Pruning and demanded props for it).

We'll have to visit that car dealer if you ever pull a Barney Fife and cmon up to the big city.
If I had to pick just one to take to the grave that may be it. At the least it serves as a prompt to frame suggestions for the 2013 revision, with which you are on board right? uttahere2:

"Preservation strategies are likely to confound removalists, tho. Especially those that denounce the revision of scientific data."

Data, ergo Conclusions and Standards, too. Can confoundment conclude con clarification? :msp_unsure: but yes a horse living near a lake can still die of thirst.

Not trying to say it does or doesn't work i believe in science and proven facts and if you or others are gaining good results from it thats great. I'm just saying we have and hold municipal contracts that are worth enough money that trying something like this could cost you hundreds of thousands i think in that article i read 77,000 if you did that in some of this cities 77,000 would probably be the down payment.

its just like going to different doctors you might get a different answer or explanation for the same thing. around here our doctors are just giving us a different answer we get paid to do the work they want. next time i see the municipal CA ill show him this and see what he thinks and get his response. maybe he will say you are right. never know.

Not trying to start an argument better trying to understand maybe would be the best thing. i have read through your article and credit you for taking the time to do those kind of things. but as you say don't hurt yourself by learning well this is me trying to learn what a guy like murph or you are doing.

 

[Ed Roland]

Hate to say it but I do too.The Re-Re theme was just so easy to follow (amazing that the only letter it generated was from the Brit who claimed ownership of 'Retrenchment Pruning and demanded props for it).

Muir/Fay? I have to imagine your "retrenchment" being a very different thing from theirs. :msp_rolleyes:

We'll have to visit that car dealer if you ever pull a Barney Fife and cmon up to the big city.
If I had to pick just one to take to the grave that may be it. At the least it serves as a prompt to frame suggestions for the 2013 revision, with which you are on board right? uttahere2:

If the authors are willing to listen to what this BCMA has to say then I'll take the opportunity to say it. Lets inspect that willow oak!

 

[murphy4trees]

Nice article Guy... would still be a surprise oif it made a dent in some of the thick skulls that are attached to loud mouths around here.. Hearing your talk at the 2004 ISA international conference made a quantum leap in m understanding of these principles.. It only made sense to me that if stubs are good to leave when there is storm damage.. they'd be good to leave for Mrs Smith when she demands that a 40' limb be removed for light on her garden.. 30' off leaving a 10' stub is better for the tree than 40' off with a perfect target cut..

Looking back at my mentality before that talk, its amazing that I could have been so darn sure that stubs were "bad", and been so wrong the whole time...

Took the new climber by a couple of trees today.. First was a chestnut oak that had been trashed when a big maple across the street wiped out the whole left side of the tree.. I removed the storm damaged maple and bid on the oak for the neighbor, explaining that it would be better to leave those broken limbs cut back to stubs.. Instead they found someone to target prune that poor tree, leaving a 5 or 6 large wounds in a row, up the side of the tree, cuts from 8-18" diameter... I explained the situation and asked the new climber how he would have handled it.. he said he was always taught to target prune storm damaged limbs.. He has worked for John B Ward, which is one of the premiere tree companies in area, if not the world.. So this shift in understanding is coming slow to the industry.. He was open to hearing the new perspective and said he'd cut trees however I asked him to..

Couple blocks away was the tree from this pruning done in 2009..

proper prune 1 big tulip limb.mov - YouTube

Without you Guy, that tree would have been butchered..
Thanks.. You've made a huge difference for me and many others.. Hopefully you won't have to put up with too much more abuse for trying to shift the paradigm..

 

[superjunior]

Nice article Guy... would still be a surprise oif it made a dent in some of the thick skulls that are attached to loud mouths around here.. Hearing your talk at the 2004 ISA international conference made a quantum leap in m understanding of these principles.. It only made sense to me that if stubs are good to leave when there is storm damage.. they'd be good to leave for Mrs Smith when she demands that a 40' limb be removed for light on her garden.. 30' off leaving a 10' stub is better for the tree than 40' off with a perfect target cut..

Looking back at my mentality before that talk, its amazing that I could have been so darn sure that stubs were "bad", and been so wrong the whole time...

Took the new climber by a couple of trees today.. First was a chestnut oak that had been trashed when a big maple across the street wiped out the whole left side of the tree.. I removed the storm damaged maple and bid on the oak for the neighbor, explaining that it would be better to leave those broken limbs cut back to stubs.. Instead they found someone to target prune that poor tree, leaving a 5 or 6 large wounds in a row, up the side of the tree, cuts from 8-18" diameter... I explained the situation and asked the new climber how he would have handled it.. he said he was always taught to target prune storm damaged limbs.. He has worked for John B Ward, which is one of the premiere tree companies in area, if not the world.. So this shift in understanding is coming slow to the industry.. He was open to hearing the new perspective and said he'd cut trees however I asked him to..

Couple blocks away was the tree from this pruning done in 2009..

proper prune 1 big tulip limb.mov - YouTube

Without you Guy, that tree would have been butchered..
Thanks.. You've made a huge difference for me and many others.. Hopefully you won't have to put up with too much more abuse for trying to shift the paradigm..

I donno Murph, that 3 ft. stub looks like s##t.. Maybe I'm still in the old school mentality of pruning..? But as you mentioned in that vid, that stub will spew a whole lot of suckers, of which none of them will be a good viable limb again.. and which will block the sun to her garden again.. which will have to be taken off again?..

You picked a perfect lateral, so why the stub?

 

[murphy4trees]

because making a 10-12" diameter cut just outside that lateral, no matter how perfect a "target cut" will lead to decay into the stem behind the lateral.. the stub provides a buffer.. no one said it was gonna be pretty. If aesthetics are a big concern, then other options should be considered.. in this case it's fairly inconspicuous. If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it..

 

[treemandan]

Anyone ever mix rum with ranch dressing? I'm outta Dr Pepper but glad to know these two things:

1. When all is said and done a whole lot more is said than done

2. All of you have pretty much said the same thing. Go ahead, check it out. In fact, if you notice, you all do the same thing too. Google it, you'll see.

And I wrote a song, goes like:

Don't bogart that street ole Murph, cone it off fer meeee!

 

[treemandan]

Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!

I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)

Hell the way this trade is going Murph might be on to something, the A300 gets changed every so often & other standards come & go, tree ID is removed from exams, stubs are defended, roads/driveways are used as tree landing zones & some neon earmuff wearing jacktard uses a Lawn mower..................Wow, this trade really has gone down the toilet!!!



LXT...................

I can fix it X. Send me 5 bucks and one bullet of your choice.

 

[treemandan]

I agree, I have taken some shots & got some back.........but I dont consider those sources to matter! perhaps instead of name calling we could engage in why this is not a proper prune job? But......if FTA & Slayer wanna a verbal insult fest....welp Ill try to refrain?????




LXT.............

X, the first thing outta yer mouth everytime is calling somebody something.

 

[treeseer]

You picked a perfect lateral, so why the stub?

"If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it.."

IMO you're both right--it could have gone either way. Look at the list in the article--going back to the lateral right away would have left a downward-facing wound, at a zone with high activity so adequate closure seemed likely. the stub you left had an upward-facing wound at a place with low activity so rot seemed inevitable. But by getting back to cut it to the lateral before rot extends that far, you allowed some resources to translocate down to that point, so eventual closure seems more likely than if you had "done it right the first time".

Lots of variables; we're all still learning. In the vid you nicely described the essential process of translating the client's goals into the pruning objective. :smile2: When you do make that final cut, a pic would be great. In any case, big wounds on trunks destabilize trees--well put. Reduction pruning is still poorly understood by researchers, especially the ones who said "there is no proper heading cut on a mature tree", even after storm damage. The concept of "node" still escapes them. ed and matt have heard this and it is unfortunate.

"I removed the storm damaged maple and bid on the oak for the neighbor, explaining that it would be better to leave those broken limbs cut back to stubs.. Instead they found someone to target prune that poor tree, leaving a 5 or 6 large wounds in a row, up the side of the tree, cuts from 8-18" diameter..."

That's gotta be ugly; an example of dogma triumphing over basic botany and common sense. There's a tree like this in court right now, the subject of an sizable lawsuit--more than I clear in 2 years. "target prune" is the wrong phrase--nodes, not just those at branch origins, are natural targets. to learn this, read Shigo, and more importantly Touch Trees.

When that section of trunk dies and the tree gets unstable, the branch removalists will be responsible for the loss of the tree, and any resultant damage and injury and death. Please document that tree over time so the story can be told.

 

[ropensaddle]

"If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it.."

IMO you're both right--it could have gone either way. Look at the list in the article--going back to the lateral right away would have left a downward-facing wound, at a zone with high activity so adequate closure seemed likely. the stub you left had an upward-facing wound at a place with low activity so rot seemed inevitable. But by getting back to cut it to the lateral before rot extends that far, you allowed some resources to translocate down to that point, so eventual closure seems more likely than if you had "done it right the first time".

Lots of variables; we're all still learning. In the vid you nicely described the essential process of translating the client's goals into the pruning objective. :smile2: When you do make that final cut, a pic would be great. In any case, big wounds on trunks destabilize trees--well put. Reduction pruning is still poorly understood by researchers, especially the ones who said "there is no proper heading cut on a mature tree", even after storm damage. The concept of "node" still escapes them. ed and matt have heard this and it is unfortunate.

"I removed the storm damaged maple and bid on the oak for the neighbor, explaining that it would be better to leave those broken limbs cut back to stubs.. Instead they found someone to target prune that poor tree, leaving a 5 or 6 large wounds in a row, up the side of the tree, cuts from 8-18" diameter..."

That's gotta be ugly; an example of dogma triumphing over basic botany and common sense. There's a tree like this in court right now, the subject of an sizable lawsuit--more than I clear in 2 years. "target prune" is the wrong phrase--nodes, not just those at branch origins, are natural targets. to learn this, read Shigo, and more importantly Touch Trees.

When that section of trunk dies and the tree gets unstable, the branch removalists will be responsible for the loss of the tree, and any resultant damage and injury and death. Please document that tree over time so the story can be told.

Seer I have seen countless examples of improper trimming and even performed some but never once seen or even heard of a suit over it. I think it must be a east coast thing lol. Anyway I get what your talking about with stubs but my friend I have perfected staying out of the zone so my lateral trims kick lol. Anyway I will be leaving some 1 inch stubs this week on 11 pollards.

 

[ropensaddle]

Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!

I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)

Hell the way this trade is going Murph might be on to something, the A300 gets changed every so often & other standards come & go, tree ID is removed from exams, stubs are defended, roads/driveways are used as tree landing zones & some neon earmuff wearing jacktard uses a Lawn mower..................Wow, this trade really has gone down the toilet!!!



LXT...................

opcorn:

 

[ropensaddle]

because making a 10-12" diameter cut just outside that lateral, no matter how perfect a "target cut" will lead to decay into the stem behind the lateral.. the stub provides a buffer.. no one said it was gonna be pretty. If aesthetics are a big concern, then other options should be considered.. in this case it's fairly inconspicuous. If I tried to make a target cut, there was a good chance I would miss on that big stem.... I'd rather reprune it down the road.. If it sprouts, they can be pruned for structure.. If it just dies, which it appears to have done 18 months later, I'll wait till the live growth is clearly visible and make the target cut exactly where the tree wants it..

Murph I have stubbed many in ice storm restoration but the truth is the decay will be the same if you leave the stub or not unless you cut into the bbpz its not a factor imo. I have went back and seen decay from stubs entering stems so its not just a hunch its from my experience. The problem I see with leaving large stubs is if the tree is stressed later by drought the large limb dies then becomes a hazard to my customer. Anyway the small stubs really are not a big deal but I only leave when no option exists or on pollards to form pods.

 

[murphy4trees]

Murph I have stubbed many in ice storm restoration but the truth is the decay will be the same if you leave the stub or not unless you cut into the bbpz its not a factor imo. I have went back and seen decay from stubs entering stems so its not just a hunch its from my experience. The problem I see with leaving large stubs is if the tree is stressed later by drought the large limb dies then becomes a hazard to my customer. Anyway the small stubs really are not a big deal but I only leave when no option exists or on pollards to form pods.

OK.... I agree that decay will enter the stems.. its a natural process, part of an untouched trees aging as large lower limbs die off and decay... That is the type of decay that trees have evolved to handle and survive. So the decay that results from stubs is acceptable IMO. However the type of decay that results from a violation of the bpz is often catastrophic... Even if the limb must be removed entirely at a later date, its best to leave a stub and let the tree begin the process of compartmentalization, then make the final cut some year(s) later, when the tree has started forming a visible collar of living wood... The problem with making a large cut on the first go round is that there is far too much chance of cutting into the bpz, even for a caring and properly trained arb... So even in ideal conditions its a bad idea.. it gets much worse when applied in the "real" world as an industry standard.. Just look around and see all the hollow trees resulting from improper large wounds on the main stem.... in this business, there a large percentage of the workers and owners simply do not care, nor are they properly trained.. Wouldn't it be better to err on the side of caution and let them leave stubs?