proper pruning 75' tulip

[Ed Roland]

We reeeeeeally need to get beyond the 1986 paradigm of the branch removal cut at the collar as our definition of proper pruning. I've disagreed with murph on several things but this is not one of them. Ya gotta see the whole tree, and the long-term objective.

With a current ANSI part 1 standard that does not even define the term "node"? You wont find "endocormic" in there either. If its a paradigm shift your after then try making your case more effectively. Personally, i believe cutting back to these deeply embedded anatomical structures makes good horse sense during restoration where retaining storage organs is critical but less so during mundane daily reductions.

 

[jefflovstrom]

OK, I have a question. Please chime in Guy and Doug.
You have a job to 'Crown clean' several Aleppo pine's ( or any kind ).
The trees are heavy and last trimmed years ago and badly.
You see that hundred's of stub's from really small to 6" in diameter thru-out the entire tree.
As part of a 'Crown clean' , would you cut the stub's even tho it is like a hundred wound's?
This is actually a real question and has to do with a job I am on and being overseen by a BCMA and registered consultant.
Jeff

 

[millbilly]

I fkn love it! Someone trying to justify leaving stubs, by claiming that it will help the tree in the long run since now it will take longer for the decay to reach the heart wood.

So now I have grasped this concept, it makes total sense, not.

But what dosn't make sense, is why even prune those branchs? They all weren't dead, diseased, broken, rubbing, parallel. Thats right, he said it was to, ummmmm , Im not sure, and if it wasn't corrected it was going to make the tree unsafe, because of all the added weight or something like that.

I do have a belief that could use some clarification. It has to deal with the terminal bud. It is my belief that the terminal bud release a growth regulating hormone that suppresses dormant bud growth. Once the terminal bud is removed, by pollarding or stubbing or natural cause, then all the dormant buds wake up and sucker and become attached wood. Also I was under the belief, that utility companys in the past used to require all pruning cuts be made at the collar and painted. The paint that was used had a man made hormone, which chemically fooled the tree into believing that the branch was still there and reduced sucker growth.

 

[ropensaddle]

I fkn love it! Someone trying to justify leaving stubs, by claiming that it will help the tree in the long run since now it will take longer for the decay to reach the heart wood.

So now I have grasped this concept, it makes total sense, not.

But what dosn't make sense, is why even prune those branchs? They all weren't dead, diseased, broken, rubbing, parallel. Thats right, he said it was to, ummmmm , Im not sure, and if it wasn't corrected it was going to make the tree unsafe, because of all the added weight or something like that.

I do have a belief that could use some clarification. It has to deal with the terminal bud. It is my belief that the terminal bud release a growth regulating hormone that suppresses dormant bud growth. Once the terminal bud is removed, by pollarding or stubbing or natural cause, then all the dormant buds wake up and sucker and become attached wood. Also I was under the belief, that utility companys in the past used to require all pruning cuts be made at the collar and painted. The paint that was used had a man made hormone, which chemically fooled the tree into believing that the branch was still there and reduced sucker growth.

I think his plan was to invigorate lower growth and reduce height after the tree was over raised. I get that, if that was his intention but it does not take stubs to get that result. Actually just removing apical bud will generate growth elseware briefly until a new apical bud takes over to regulate auxin imo.

 

[treeslayer]

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: sure is fun to #### with all these yankees up here in PA, they surely have no shortage of attitude...:msp_ohmy:

having seen the Eagles in action, I know why.......:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[lxt]

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: sure is fun to #### with all these yankees up here in PA, they surely have no shortage of attitude...:msp_ohmy:

having seen the Eagles in action, I know why.......:hmm3grin2orange:

Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....

Jeff, in regards to your question & I have ran across that scenario as prolly most of us have at one point or another......Pines, spruces & just evergreens in general........Cuts should be made according to the A300 standard when there was no goal, if it is clearly a hack job.....this does make it tough......depending on if these are mature trees or not will make a big difference.

I think in your situation with what you have going on it would be best to provide a restorative pruning over a course of time, Yes as long as its done by the standard you prolly could make all those cuts???? ....however I would suggest allowing the cuts some healing time......be selective in stub removal by removing small & large alike but not all at once.

the problem with im-proper work is its easy to destroy the tree...........but restoring it takes time of which most clients want immediate results & lack the patience to follow through. whats the BCMA saying?



LXT................

 

[ropensaddle]

Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....

Jeff, in regards to your question & I have ran across that scenario as prolly most of us have at one point or another......Pines, spruces & just evergreens in general........Cuts should be made according to the A300 standard when there was no goal, if it is clearly a hack job.....this does make it tough......depending on if these are mature trees or not will make a big difference.

I think in your situation with what you have going on it would be best to provide a restorative pruning over a course of time, Yes as long as its done by the standard you prolly could make all those cuts???? ....however I would suggest allowing the cuts some healing time......be selective in stub removal by removing small & large alike but not all at once.

the problem with im-proper work is its easy to destroy the tree...........but restoring it takes time of which most clients want immediate results & lack the patience to follow through. whats the BCMA saying?



LXT................

Lol ahhhh steelers huh, remember Tom Laundry Robert Newhouse, and Stauback he he he

 

[treeclimber101]

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: sure is fun to #### with all these yankees up here in PA, they surely have no shortage of attitude...:msp_ohmy:

having seen the Eagles in action, I know why.......:hmm3grin2orange:

I don't know how cause I hear that you have a mouth full of southern marbles ...

 

[Rftreeman]

well ####, I guess size does matter.....boom size that is...

 

[jefflovstrom]

Thank's Ya'll

Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....

Jeff, in regards to your question & I have ran across that scenario as prolly most of us have at one point or another......Pines, spruces & just evergreens in general........Cuts should be made according to the A300 standard when there was no goal, if it is clearly a hack job.....this does make it tough......depending on if these are mature trees or not will make a big difference.

I think in your situation with what you have going on it would be best to provide a restorative pruning over a course of time, Yes as long as its done by the standard you prolly could make all those cuts???? ....however I would suggest allowing the cuts some healing time......be selective in stub removal by removing small & large alike but not all at once.

the problem with im-proper work is its easy to destroy the tree...........but restoring it takes time of which most clients want immediate results & lack the patience to follow through. whats the BCMA saying?

You, Guy, and Shaun make the case just as I did.
Here is the problem.
Three companies bid this job. Fairly well know here. We got the job and knew it would be dealing with the BCMA who is also a RC.
What we did not know was that this guy also works for one of the companies that lost the job to us. I questioned the conflict of interest, but who am I. I kept an open mind for as long as I can.
We are having a meeting with the board and all in a few days, so I thought I would get your thought's.
Thank's ya'll,
Jeff

 

[mattfr12]

Wrong team!! I live in Steeler country....

Jeff, in regards to your question & I have ran across that scenario as prolly most of us have at one point or another......Pines, spruces & just evergreens in general........Cuts should be made according to the A300 standard when there was no goal, if it is clearly a hack job.....this does make it tough......depending on if these are mature trees or not will make a big difference.

I think in your situation with what you have going on it would be best to provide a restorative pruning over a course of time, Yes as long as its done by the standard you prolly could make all those cuts???? ....however I would suggest allowing the cuts some healing time......be selective in stub removal by removing small & large alike but not all at once.

the problem with im-proper work is its easy to destroy the tree...........but restoring it takes time of which most clients want immediate results & lack the patience to follow through. whats the BCMA saying?

You, Guy, and Shaun make the case just as I did.
Here is the problem.
Three companies bid this job. Fairly well know here. We got the job and knew it would be dealing with the BCMA who is also a RC.
What we did not know was that this guy also works for one of the companies that lost the job to us. I questioned the conflict of interest, but who am I. I kept an open mind for as long as I can.
We are having a meeting with the board and all in a few days, so I thought I would get your thought's.
Thank's ya'll,
Jeff

I don't know if I'm a valuable enough source to you jeff but i would have to agree with doug. done over the course of years. i am no self proclaimed expert but generally from what I've seen and been taught is best done over time. correct it over a 3-4 year plan so it doesn't get to much shock.

I don't know what book these guys are reading but I've never read anything in the ISA or any other tree article for that fact that says leaving stubs is gonna be better in the long run for a tree. or that cutting back every branch is in the trees best interest. Are you not gonna wind up with a denser canopy because of all the regrowth. i mean its almost like a light topping job leaving stubs and cutting everything back. heck why not call it pollarding.

Murph seems like an alright guy but i can't ever figure out why he's always doing something out of the ordinary all the time. skid loaders in every yard. taking whole leads smashing stuff up and calling them instructional video's. i think in one of those videos he dropped a trunk on a public street that was over 25' 30' foot tall judging from what i saw in the video. i mean around here you might end up dishing out a lot of $$ for that kinda stuff. good for him if he's making money doing that stuff but around here some of that stuff is what we see the weekend warriors doing.

a 75 foot bucket or any bucket is usually worthless for pruning on dense canopy trees like that you would have to punch holes everywhere to get to the main trunk. the only trees we prune from the bucket are usually large oak where you can get to the trunk without bending or breaking limbs.

 

[jefflovstrom]

Matt, I think your confused. Sorry. I am not talking about all that. I am talking about finding alot of stubs and rips and crappy pruning.
This should probably be moved to Guy's thread.
Jeff

 

[NCTREE]

Murph seems like an alright guy but i can't ever figure out why he's always doing something out of the ordinary all the time. skid loaders in every yard. taking whole leads smashing stuff up and calling them instructional video's. i think in one of those videos he dropped a trunk on a public street that was over 25' 30' foot tall judging from what i saw in the video. i mean around here you might end up dishing out a lot of $$ for that kinda stuff. good for him if he's making money doing that stuff but around here some of that stuff is what we see the weekend warriors doing.

He does it because he can, no harm no fowl!

 

[murphy4trees]

a 75 foot bucket or any bucket is usually worthless for pruning on dense canopy trees like that you would have to punch holes everywhere to get to the main trunk. the only trees we prune from the bucket are usually large oak where you can get to the trunk without bending or breaking limbs.

I had another friend and arborist recently remark with surprise that "you can prune with a bucket truck"? Nice guy, but doesn't know much or care much about trees.

Trying to get inside the canopy to prune with a bucket truck is a sign of old school mentality... On mature trees why would you want to cut live limbs on the main trunk? If I need to reach in for deadwood, I'll use a power pruner, stihl 131..

 

[superjunior]

I had another friend and arborist recently remark with surprise that "you can prune with a bucket truck"? Nice guy, but doesn't know much or care much about trees.

Trying to get inside the canopy to prune with a bucket truck is a sign of old school mentality... On mature trees why would you want to cut live limbs on the main trunk? If I need to reach in for deadwood, I'll use a power pruner, stihl 131..

Lots of mature trees like pin oak and locust have LOTS of deadwood in the interior. If I cant access everything with the bucket I'll bail out and get tied into the tree. For me at least, I would think that to be more efficient then trying to pole saw or power prune all that.

 

[Grace Tree]

Lots of mature trees like pin oak and locust have LOTS of deadwood in the interior. If I cant access everything with the bucket I'll bail out and get tied into the tree. For me at least, I would think that to be more efficient then trying to pole saw or power prune all that.

+1

 

[mattfr12]

I had another friend and arborist recently remark with surprise that "you can prune with a bucket truck"? Nice guy, but doesn't know much or care much about trees.

Trying to get inside the canopy to prune with a bucket truck is a sign of old school mentality... On mature trees why would you want to cut live limbs on the main trunk? If I need to reach in for deadwood, I'll use a power pruner, stihl 131..

Ya im not trying to dawg you or your methods because their out of the ordinary because if it works for you roll with it. Its your company and you should do things how you want to. i just always had a hard time getting in close with a bucket our Kboom with bucket is closer to the 80' foot of side reach or 90' up with all the manuals out because on top of the boom it sticks out another 8 feet. i don't think I'm to far from you murph I'm 15 min from downtown pittsburgh.

and about cutting live limbs on the main trunk their is just instances where its necessary if you get two that are growing so closely together or into each other and have no dominant lateral to take it back to i would never just leave it a stub. if left you will wind up with a worse problem rubbing and so on. that will open up the window for disease and decay.

i mean theirs a million ways to skin a cat if thats your method for getting strain off the tree during wind and branch tips and your obtaining good results go for it. is their any type of literature backing it up? if so send it to me please i would like to read it.

because per say you where the inventor of this method and i used it and trees started getting diseased and so on I'm responsible for the health of a lot of municipal trees if another ARB or higher comes in and says thats the cause i could be held liable resulting in losing contracts, maybe even hit my pocket.

People have gotten their wallets hit for pruning with spikes on hew knows what someone will go after.

 

[lxt]

Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!

I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)

Hell the way this trade is going Murph might be on to something, the A300 gets changed every so often & other standards come & go, tree ID is removed from exams, stubs are defended, roads/driveways are used as tree landing zones & some neon earmuff wearing jacktard uses a Lawn mower..................Wow, this trade really has gone down the toilet!!!



LXT...................

 

[mattfr12]

Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!

I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)

Hell the way this trade is going Murph might be on to something, the A300 gets changed every so often & other standards come & go, tree ID is removed from exams, stubs are defended, roads/driveways are used as tree landing zones & some neon earmuff wearing jacktard uses a Lawn mower..................Wow, this trade really has gone down the toilet!!!



LXT...................

Ya i worked at bartlett before it was even bartlett i worked for jim then he was bought out by bartlett along with urban tree care and I'm not sure where rich came from but he was also a salesperson their when i worked their. The office is in imperial now when i worked their it was in crafton close to shemmins nursery.

ya thier main business is pruning and thats 90% of what i did for them for years and I've just never heard or seen anyone do anything like this nor would it be acceptable. i did a lot of mount lebanon oaks i think people would get killed if you did something like that to one of their trees.

 

[mattfr12]

Matt you worked for Bartlett right? whilst they might not be my favorite company I know Rich & Jim from the oakdale office???? If you worked for them...then your methods would be pretty sound & I would continue on as you have been.....seems like you`re doing good....!

I think Murph is a little ways from you though........prolly 4hrs give or take, I have family in the tree biz out in York....that area out there is different than here, alot of historical emphasis out there........Im really surprised that they dont have to be certified to work in some places (Gettysburg, Harrisburgh & Philly)

Hell the way this trade is going Murph might be on to something, the A300 gets changed every so often & other standards come & go, tree ID is removed from exams, stubs are defended, roads/driveways are used as tree landing zones & some neon earmuff wearing jacktard uses a Lawn mower..................Wow, this trade really has gone down the toilet!!!



LXT...................

LXT if you ever need some crane picking done let me know i just threw the second k-boom in the works the 500 model should be done this coming summer its close to 115 foot of stick. the one we just got is 70 of main boom.