Rainy days splicing

[canopyboy]

I've got a set of Samson fids. Other than that a variety of bent and sometimes soldered wire ... and patience. Lots of patience. My goal today was to get some ideas as to what other people use.

I'll post pictures when I get the velocity to work for me. It might be a couple days - depends on how much patience I'll need for the job at hand and how long I can hide from the family in the basement undisturbed.

 

[pdqdl]

I joined this site today purely to look at the pictures. I'm expecting some velocity to show up today, and I want to make the splices myself. Not so much because I don't want to pay $20 each (although that helps), but because it's jut one of those things to do in the evenings to stay out of trouble. I've been splicing single braid (and of course 3 strand) for years, but was wondering how it was going to work with the velocity.

Anyhow, nice pictures and nice work.

Good luck with the velocity. Let us know how that goes, because I had some very poor results with my efforts. Moray differed with his experience, so we will be anxious to hear from you.

My experience with velocity: http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=95306&highlight=splicing+velocity

 

[canopyboy]

Ok, I got some time last night and this is the first Velocity splice.

Next time I think I might wear mechanics' gloves, as I could crack a safe with my finger tips right now. It's definitely do-able, but maybe not for the faint of heart. That outer braid is tight, even once I got it wet.

I'm sure it will hold a truck, but I also think I could improve the process and the finished product a bit on the next go. I have 3 more to do, I'll try to post another picture of the last one next to the first once I get it done.

 

[pdqdl]

Yep, that is a pretty nice looking splice.

I think my Velocity rope is wrapped too tight. Was that 10 mm, or the larger size?

Looking at your splice, do you see the slight constriction on the top side of the eye, just to the left of the re-insertion point? On my splice, that constriction is so tight it deforms the eye. It reduces the diameter of rope in the eye at that point by at lease 1/4th.

There are only two possibilities for my problem resolution: either figure out how to get more slack in the cover, or figure out how to make a tighter core/cover crossover.

Since you and Moray have pulled it off, I'll just presume that I need to improve my technique somewhere. I've been doing double braid for some time now, so I am clueless how to improve my efforts.

Patience....



Practice...




More patience...

 

[pdqdl]

Another thought, if you are doing 10 mm line: How far down the rope are you doing the tie-off knot?

As I recall, Samson specifies 11 times the diameter of the rope for a 1/2 fid length, 22x for a full fid. 5 fid lengths from x would be 1100mm=43 inches.

I think I'll try tying the knot further down the line.


Gee, was that a pun?

 

[canopyboy]

Ok, when I start something new, I become obsessed with it for awhile. I had taken my rope with me to work to take a picture and post this morning, and threw my toolbag in as well in case I had some time to kill during lunch.

Well, lunch went a little long today (45min) as I put another loop in the other end of my new velocity line. The line itself was just a scrap from Wesspur to make some split tails out of. To answer your question, this it the 11mm velocity. Samson's site doesn't list a 10mm, and I can't find one online unless it's Sterling Velocity 9.8mm.

This second one went much faster, and I think came out much nicer. It's not lockstitched yet, but the picture is attached.

I'm following Samson's double braid splicing instructions -- well, kind of. I tie a figure 8 loop as a stopper knot about 5 ft. I don't think this dimension is critical. You want enough room to milk back the outer braid while not letting it go too far up the rope. The figure 8 also has the advantage of letting me put my foot in it to help with the last step.

I measure off like the instructions show, pulling the core and tapering the cover. After inserting the cover into the core, I tie it off with a piece of scrap so it doesn't pull out while I'm fighting with the rest of the line on the next step. You can't use the fid to tuck the core back in. At least not between what they have labeled as X and Z. I took some 40lb spectra fishing line and made a loop in the end. Twist that loop into smaller loops and put the end of the core through. Pull and adjust into a finger trap like setup. A little bit of tape to cover the end helps. Then I used a homemade wire fid to pull the fishing line through. Attach the fishing line to something and wet the line between X and Z. Work the core through. Brute force isn't the answer, you have to massage it through.

I had much better luck this time because of two things. First, when tucking the braid and core I made sure everything laid out nice and straight and came in and out on the right side so there would be no twisting when I pulled it together. Second, when burying the core, I kept tension on the crossover with my left hand while working the cover up with my right. This kept the core from bunching up at the crossover.

I don't know if this helps you or not.

BTW, how does one insert the picture directly into my post, instead of as an attachment?

 

[pdqdl]

Two notes from me:

1. Ooops. 11mm line. That is correct. When I bought ours, it seemed to me that there was a 1/2" line for sale as well.

2. You put your tie-off knot further back than me, which might help generate more slack when I try to pull the cover over the crossover. I suppose it might make more slack on reinsertion of the core, too.

You're absolutely right about not inserting the tubular fid in to re-insert the core.

Did you taper your core for reinsertion, or did you manage to force it through? I simply could not get it to reinsert past x, and I never made it to "Z".

 

[canopyboy]

No, I didn't taper the core. I actually found that the tape was the "stickiest" part to pull through, and minimizing it to just the end seemed to help. I tried it without tape, but the fibers would catch and double back over making it too big to get through. Just moderate tension on the snare, wet the cover, and work the cover over the end of the core. It will come out eventually.

 

[Ghillie]

Nice looking splices!

I want to get some velocity for spare bridges for my harnesses.... I may just get enough to try some splicing.

BTW, canopyboy, Here is the "posting pics for dummies" thread. Parrisw did all the work.

 

[teacherman]

Nice work, Ghillie!
So do you actually weave the sheath strands back in, or is it a tie off a ways back down the line? I see the whip stitch, nice work nice touch on the heat shrink! Is that done with the core strands? I have never spliced, never had a climbing rope apart, so please forgive dumb questions.

ROck climbing rope is often marked with a special marker designed for that purpose, something about chemicals in the marker solvent. I would like to learn a bit of splicing, my prussiks have big knots in them.

Thanks for posting the pics!

 

[Ghillie]

Nice work, Ghillie!
So do you actually weave the sheath strands back in, or is it a tie off a ways back down the line? I see the whip stitch, nice work nice touch on the heat shrink! Is that done with the core strands? I have never spliced, never had a climbing rope apart, so please forgive dumb questions.

ROck climbing rope is often marked with a special marker designed for that purpose, something about chemicals in the marker solvent. I would like to learn a bit of splicing, my prussiks have big knots in them.

Thanks for posting the pics!

Thanks!

The sheath on a 16 strand splice is buried a total of 33 inches up through the rope from the insertion point.

I used core strands because they stretched a lot less than anything I had laying around and there are plenty left over after the splice ( about 60 " of core is removed for the splice)

You should use a rub-a-dub clothing marker, I can't remember the name of the chemical in sharpies that could be bad for ropes.

There are no stupid questions....just stupid people! (not saying you are one of them, I am just saying)

Oh, the heat shrink I had bought a few years ago for another project and never used it. I thought I would shrink some of the stitching and leave some bare to see how it wears. I also have some waterproof paper that I will start sticking under the shrink to identify some pertinent data about the splice. Not sure what is pertinent yet...

 

[canopyboy]

BTW, canopyboy, Here is the "posting pics for dummies" thread. Parrisw did all the work.

Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. I had spent all my time looking through the site FAQ.

BTW, is there another "for dummies" thread that tells me what the little things under a person's name mean?

 

[Ghillie]

Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. I had spent all my time looking through the site FAQ.

BTW, is there another "for dummies" thread that tells me what the little things under a person's name mean?

It is called reputation, go to your control panel and look around. You just got some.

If you search for "reputation" in off-topic forum, you should be able to find out the specifics.

Some people make a big deal about how much rep they have, some don't... I am not going to say which group I fit into.

Question: Why did you lock stitch instead of whip lock the splices?

 

[canopyboy]

Question: Why did you lock stitch instead of whip lock the splices?

I honestly don't know enough about either to say why one is better than the other for any reason besides personal preference. But the way I understand it, they both serve the same purpose. They don't add to the strength under load, but keep things from coming apart over time, etc. The lock stitch to me seems to be less obtrusive in the finished product. Whip locking looks cooler though. What are your thoughts, I noticed you whip locked in your pictures?

 

[Adkpk]

, but because it's jut one of those things to do in the evenings to stay out of trouble. .

Same here and to make it mine of course. Nice splice.

 

[pdqdl]

......................

Question: Why did you lock stitch instead of whip lock the splices?

A lock stitch is the proper way to secure a double braid splice, as both the inner and outer parts of the rope are holding the load on the eye. The lock stitch is there to hold the splice when it is NOT carrying a load

A double braid splice needs no whipping to hold securely under a load. It is entirely a different story, however, when a double braid splice has no load. Bouncing around loose in a tool box can loosen a splice enough for it to pull apart gently, especially if you pull on the eye while holding the cover right beneath the eye.


Conversely, a whipping below the eye is the proper way to secure a 16 braid splice because it causes the cover to choke down onto the inserted part of the rope at it's earliest point. It is the "binding" of the outer part near the eye that causes the rest of the rope to choke down on the rest of the inserted splice. It's not that a conventional lock stitch wouldn't do the job; rather, the whipping does it so much better and more evenly.

Ghillie: those beautiful lock/whips that you do on your splices are probably best of all for 16 braid: they do a splendid job of choking the cover onto the inserted tail, and the lock stitch buries the ends of the whipping to keep it from coming undone. The lock stitch included certainly can't hurt, either.

Years ago we made dog leashes at an animal hospital out of polypropylene (cheap, ski-rope) single braid. They never came un-done, and we wouldn't have considered whipping them. We only inserted the tail into the cover about 8", then reversed the core capturing a few strands of the cover and then ran it back up the middle toward the eye. But then, we weren't hanging 40' up a tree from them, either.

[Why were we making them so often? The dogs were fond of fighting us, rolling over, and biting the rope in half. We were busy at the same time with lifting them up, choking them, and throwing them into a cage, etc.]

 

[moray]

Nice thread, guys! Good detailed technical stuff.

A double braid splice needs no whipping to hold securely under a load...

I would add to this that none of the other rope constructions needs any help from a whipping or stitching, either. Some people worry about the almost impossible scenario where the eye is unevenly loaded and the entire tension is on the buried leg. In 12-strand rope this will pull the splice apart. The remedy is stitching, not whipping. I have done experiments with unevenly loaded 12-strand that show that just 4 stitches of 2-lb. test sewing thread did far more to hold the splice together than a whipping made of 5 or 6 tight wraps of much heavier cord.

Conversely, a whipping below the eye is the proper way to secure a 16 braid splice because it causes the cover to choke down onto the inserted part of the rope at it's earliest point. It is the "binding" of the outer part near the eye that causes the rest of the rope to choke down on the rest of the inserted splice. It's not that a conventional lock stitch wouldn't do the job; rather, the whipping does it so much better and more evenly...

I take mild issue with the phrase in bold. I would point out that beyond the experimental evidence that shows how much better stitching performs, there is a theoretical problem with a whipping that is meant to prevent the core slipping out. Under heavy tension the rope, including the thick splice under the whipping, will shrink in diameter. The whipping is no longer squeezing as hard as it was, and may not be squeezing at all! The stitching, on the other hand, provides a mechanical barrier to any movement of the core, and does not depend on friction at all. I admire a beautiful whipping as much as the next guy, but I think of them as pretty much useless decoration. Now if you put the whipping right on top of the stitching, there could be some value in that, as you would know your stitching was intact as long as the whipping was also intact.

Lastly, it is worth remembering that 12-strand is much looser than the other constructions, and therefore much more prone to come apart. Stitching is absolutely required for a 12-strand splice. When I make splices in 16-strand or double braid I do stitch them, but I always wonder to myself if there is any imaginable scenario in which the stitching will actually do anything. Until I know it is useless I will continue to do the prudent thing and put the stitching in...

 

[Slvrmple72]

Thanks, that was exactly what I needed. I had spent all my time looking through the site FAQ.

BTW, is there another "for dummies" thread that tells me what the little things under a person's name mean?

Welcome to the site! Lot of good people on here to help answer questions and offer great advice. The green dots are reputation points and they accrue with good responses from other fellow ASers tagging the "scale" at the bottom of your sign on... unless you become a complete horses ass and then you get negative rep and go from green to red. Here is some green rep from me to you. Spend it wisely! The stuff is more valuable than gold! Great job on the velocity spliced eye!

Don't get sucked into the political thread, least of all when imbibing too much!-Kevin

 

[Ghillie]

A lock stitch is the proper way to secure a double braid splice, as both the inner and outer parts of the rope are holding the load on the eye. The lock stitch is there to hold the splice when it is NOT carrying a load

A double braid splice needs no whipping to hold securely under a load. It is entirely a different story, however, when a double braid splice has no load. Bouncing around loose in a tool box can loosen a splice enough for it to pull apart gently, especially if you pull on the eye while holding the cover right beneath the eye.

###Edited for brevity###

The Yale kit I bought to start this whole learning process recommended the whip lock for double braid.

That being said, I think the lock stitch is more secure. There is no way I would expect just whipping to do the job, the locks over the whipping make it acceptable to me (in 16 strand ) .

The splice I did in the Icetail, I wouldn't dream of just whip locking it.

It dissapoints me how ugly that the lockstitching comes out on the Icetail but I can work on that. And besides, it is an ugly splice to begin with when you get all the fibers showing that would not take dye because of the nature of aramid fibers.

 

[pdqdl]

Ease up there, Moray! I'm just quoting (sort-of) from the Samson Book. I'm not in the habit of pulling apart my splices like you are.

You should have a little more respect for securing the splices, too. I had a double braid splice come apart on me while I was in a tree. It was scary! My whipping failed to hold the cover tight, and it pulled apart in my hands, 25' up a tree. I didn't own a needle to do proper lock stitching with, and I thought whipping was good enough. The splice was a year or two old, and I didn't inspect it before the climb.

I never did another splice in double braid until I bought a stitching needle.