Resurrect a neglected splitter

[wbnca]

Pictures .. I hope..

 

[user 19670]

Forgive me for jumping in here when others that know far more than myself are already involved.
Thanks for the pics.
Your oil reservoir is lower than the suction of your pump. You have to prime it. The blue you describe on the pump gear and the wear evident in the picture makes me think it is running dry because it was not primed.

 

[cabinman]

lookin

Pictures .. I hope..

lookin at your pics ,, Your pump is toast,..But no matter me as, u have ignored all my eariler post,.But I say your pump is TOAST,....Eric,...

 

[wbnca]

I was thinking along the same lines, but I frankly don't now how to prime it?

I put oil in the output section of the pump but that did help?

What would keep it from flowing back into the tank?

Had one blue tooth, it may have got dirt jammed in it.

I don't even know what pump this is and I don't have an exploded view?

I've read if you run a pump dry you will ruin it, maybe I've done it in already.



wbnca

 

[user 19670]

I was thinking along the same lines, but I frankly don't now how to prime it?

I put oil in the output section of the pump but that did help?

What would keep it from flowing back into the tank?

Had one blue tooth, it may have got dirt jammed in it.

I don't even know what pump this is and I don't have an exploded view?

I've read if you run a pump dry you will ruin it, maybe I've done it in already.



wbnca

Don't worry. It ain't rocket science. You just have the misfortune of having two problems at the same time.

- The engine needs a tune up and probably the carburetter is gummed up and needs a rebuild.
- The oil pump is shot. You lost the prime when you drained the tank and then the pump ran dry. The seals as well as the gears and the sideplates are worn out. It is easier for the pump to suck air past the seals than it is to suck the oil up the hose from the tank. The gears and the sideplates are machined to exacting and close tolerances to keep leakage from the high pressure (discharge) of the pump to the low pressure (suction). The wear and the grinding you did have made sure that the pump is history. You will need to buy a similar sized pump and all should be well as long as you prime it.

Here is how you could prime it. Fill the discharge hose with oil at the far end from the pump and hold that end of the hose up in the air. With no sparkplug in the engine and using the starter cord you should be able to expel the air from the suction hose and draw oil up from the tank and into the pump. When the air bubbles stop and oil starts to come out of the hose you will have achieved prime.

 

[kevin j]

-priming, not good for tank to be low, but should be ok. should prime itself IF the pump was good, as positivie dispaclement pump will pull a vacuum and lift oil. If no suction leaks.... Still best to have oil in the inlet at start for lubrication and sealing. Putting oil in the outlet won't help, will push right back out. Not priming it originally might have caused thw scorihng, especiallyif there was end thrust from the coupling.

-vote #2-looks like pump is toast. The grooves on the side plate indicate severe wear. the blue tooth was on that same end? blue is heat, something through it, or end thrust from the engine connection. Was the scored side the end away from the engine?
-is this the only gear section? then it is a single stage pump.
-yes it could move the piston, might only develope 25 or 50 psi or less, pushing all the oil back around the side plates. but that would push the cylinder in and out slowly.

-engine probably dies because the pump seizes up. That indicates it is not pulling any oil through and lubricating anything. are you sure the suction is totally open? putting hose below oil level it should gush out big time. or if it was sucking air, would not prime, do this damage like gordy noted.

-The basic layout looks pretty good-sturdy, clean and not welded up from a pile of plates. I would put a new pump on it. Might be trash downstream, change filters often for a while. Not worth much as is, but with a pump, workable or saleable?

-or better yet, box it up and send it to me. I will dispose of it properly

k

 

[Old_School_Nut]

It wouldn't be worth it to most, but I have saved pumps that were worn that bad by machining the end plate flat again (alot of metal to be removed), or by simply sliding the end plate back and forth on fine wet/dry sandpaper on a peice of glass or a granite block... you can do the same with the gears being careful to keep them square and the same thickness, also you need to be sure to leave enough clearance for the gears to turn. Try to keep the gears .001 thinner than the gear pocket is deep or the spacer plate is thick. Any more than .002 i would clean up the spacer plate and knock off that extra .001. resemble with thick oil/grease and try to turn the shaft with a love joy stock on for leverage and grip, the shaft should turn with some resistance but you should not feel any metal sliding.... if you take the pump back apart after turning it you should find little to no scuff marks on the end plate from the gears, if you do, make note of the pattern, you may have polished the gears in a way they are no longer square... if you attempt this, take your time and measure alot! the pump will function much better assuming the teeth themselves are not very bad

-Leo-

 

[user 19670]

It wouldn't be worth it to most, but I have saved pumps that were worn that bad by machining the end plate flat again (alot of metal to be removed), or by simply sliding the end plate back and forth on fine wet/dry sandpaper on a peice of glass or a granite block... you can do the same with the gears being careful to keep them square and the same thickness, also you need to be sure to leave enough clearance for the gears to turn. Try to keep the gears .001 thinner than the gear pocket is deep or the spacer plate is thick. Any more than .002 i would clean up the spacer plate and knock off that extra .001. resemble with thick oil/grease and try to turn the shaft with a love joy stock on for leverage and grip, the shaft should turn with some resistance but you should not feel any metal sliding.... if you take the pump back apart after turning it you should find little to no scuff marks on the end plate from the gears, if you do, make note of the pattern, you may have polished the gears in a way they are no longer square... if you attempt this, take your time and measure alot! the pump will function much better assuming the teeth themselves are not very bad

-Leo-

I purposely didn't mention that because it really is a BS repair. A machine shop could do that and keep the endplate and gear as flat as Kansas.
Besides, the gear is shot because heat has turned it blue and soft as butter.

Grease will seal and lube until oil climbs the suction hose but who wants to advocate dismantling a new pump to grease it up?
Squirt some oil in the suction and the discharge of the new pump and spin by hand to distribute it. The pump will prime by the time you get the choke adjusted on the engine and all should be well.

 

[triptester]

wbnca,

The pump you have is a MTE brand 2-stage pump. You can replace it with a Barnes 2-stage pump just get the gpm that matches your engine.
5-6 hp. 11 gpm pump
8hp. 16gpm pump

http://www.mtehydraulics.com/oemprod_2stagepumps.html

 

[mga]

wbnca,

The pump you have is a MTE brand 2-stage pump. You can replace it with a Barnes 2-stage pump just get the gpm that matches your engine.
5-6 hp. 11 gpm pump
8hp. 16gpm pump

http://www.mtehydraulics.com/oemprod_2stagepumps.html

good detective work, triptester.

 

[wbnca]

Well this log splitter is older than I thought.

Thanks to triptester on the pump id ! I called the nice folks at MTE and they said this pump is 20 years old. Don't sell parts for it and can't be rebuild. The area that is scored is on the gasket side so if I were to resurface it then I doubt if I could reinstall it. I would have like to got it working enough to had checked the cylinder, valve, etc.

I rebuilt the carburetor using a kit and blew all the passages with compressed air, carb cleaner, etc. Even after adjusting the both the idle and main jets the engine will not run steady without backfiring and runs very rich.

So we have a known bad pump and a very questionable 5 hp tecumseh engine.

Will get back..

Thanks again..

wbnca

 

[triptester]

wbnca,

Glad I could provide some useful info. Sorry the info lead to a bad pump.

 

[Old_School_Nut]

I purposely didn't mention that because it really is a BS repair. A machine shop could do that and keep the endplate and gear as flat as Kansas.
Besides, the gear is shot because heat has turned it blue and soft as butter.

Grease will seal and lube until oil climbs the suction hose but who wants to advocate dismantling a new pump to grease it up?

its not a BS Repair if done right... and yes the gears don't look good but should function well enough to see how the rest of the components work in this case.

I never said to take apart a NEW pump to put grease in it i said to put grease in it during reassembly of your OLD worn out pump...

maybe I should have been more clear, its not for every1, and doesn't guarantee a like new pump, just one better than you had so you can maybe split a few more cord with it to pay for a new one.. I have done it to pumps in the past that are still in use years after they were thought to be junk, well worth the 4 hours I spent in the machine shop and grannet plate.

-Leo-

 

[user 19670]

its not a BS Repair if done right... and yes the gears don't look good but should function well enough to see how the rest of the components work in this case.

I never said to take apart a NEW pump to put grease in it i said to put grease in it during reassembly of your OLD worn out pump...

maybe I should have been more clear, its not for every1, and doesn't guarantee a like new pump, just one better than you had so you can maybe split a few more cord with it to pay for a new one.. I have done it to pumps in the past that are still in use years after they were thought to be junk, well worth the 4 hours I spent in the machine shop and grannet plate.

-Leo-

I have been there and done that back in the days of my first Harley Davidson, when I had little money and not much mechanical skill. Here is how it works in the real world. Nobody has a granite block just hanging around and few of us have a sheet of glass so in desperation a piece of wood is chosen, or the cement floor, or a table top. After having tried this I can still see the sandpaper (just happened to have something laying around -- grade or type not important) curls ahead of the part and causes a rounded edge no matter how careful you try to be.
A machinist, such as you are, knows what to look for and how to check and has the tools to do so and the feel for the measuring. Like I said, a Machine Shop can do such a job (likely with surface grinding) and keep things as flat as Kansas. It remains a BS repair that no self-respecting mechanic would attempt OR suggest. Such "repairs" are usually limited to removing slight surface imperfections and are not recommended for removing a lot of material like needs done here.
Truth be known, if I was to employ a Machine Shop to rebuild a pump for me and they did a BS repair on it they can keep the pump and suffer for the charges. I want good mechanical repairs not something the Three Stooges would do (just an analogy -- Don't get excited).

The grease part. Four pages of troubleshooting and it is now determined that a new pump is required. The mere mention of grease (even if not related to a new pump) and the neophyte will say to himself "how to get that grease in there . . . I KNOW! I'll just take it apart. I know you don't advocate dismantling a new pump, I don't either but the seed has been planted.

NOW, to put things into perspective. A log splitter can be made to work again and the TOTAL outlay is just the $100.xx or so that purchases the new pump. A log splitter for $100.xx
My splitter was inherited from a friend. I only have the price of a new engine invested. Don't get much cheaper than that.

Bite the bullet. Get the new pump.

opcorn:

 

[Old_School_Nut]

lol Gordie, you can sure put things in words. I really hope (and maybe that's asking for alot) that people would know better that are used to working with and repairing equipment. A person who repairs things as you describe in my opinion would need to buy new equipment constantly or simply wouldn't have any that works... in fact i would be surprised they could even get the pump apart!

I agree that 100 dollars for a new pump assuming the rest of the splitter is ok is a GOOD idea, but if the engine is questionable and some other expensive part like the cylinder is also questionable it is starting to look like a bit more of a gamble to dump money in it if money is tight already. Also to some people 100 dollars extra is hard to come by even with a full time job and no family, but maybe they have 4 hours in their weekend to tighten up their pump, or maybe they have a buddie with access to a machine shop, and now that they know it can be done he gives them a call. it might cost a guy a case of beer or 3 to find out now that half his lines leak because 5 years ago he shot at a squirrel on that old splitter with his shotgun at 30 yards lol

on the flip side, lets say a young guy, strapped for cash in high school has a junk hydraulic pump on his splitter and he tries to fix it due to my post and does not succeed, was it really a loss? when i was little i would screw crap up (lol and still do on occasion), not finish a project, take things apart and barely back together... but as i look back at it nothing was lost, i learned alot from it. it made any mechanic class i had from high school on easy.... a junk pump is exactly that, if ya screw it up more you only waisted your 4 hours learning (or his buddie got beer for at least trying), we are never to old to try things, i only hope that a fellow has enough brains to not do exactly everything you said! then again maybe its time they learned to follow directions, research or to stop when they are clueless and actually care about the outcome.

you may be right however, most mechanics with a bottom line wouldn't bother with any of this during working hours i wouldnt if the customer expects it to work like new, but from where I am from guys have friends with day jobs and we all have beer! I admit I am not normal as i am a A&P mechanic and a machinist and i love wrenching as much as machining, so maybe my views on reality are a bit blurred.... or maybe its the beer

-Leo-

 

[cabinman]

SchooL ? ?

lol Gordie, you can sure put things in words. I really hope (and maybe that's asking for alot) that people would know better that are used to working with and repairing equipment. A person who repairs things as you describe in my opinion would need to buy new equipment constantly or simply wouldn't have any that works... in fact i would be surprised they could even get the pump apart!

I agree that 100 dollars for a new pump assuming the rest of the splitter is ok is a GOOD idea, but if the engine is questionable and some other expensive part like the cylinder is also questionable it is starting to look like a bit more of a gamble to dump money in it if money is tight already. Also to some people 100 dollars extra is hard to come by even with a full time job and no family, but maybe they have 4 hours in their weekend to tighten up their pump, or maybe they have a buddie with access to a machine shop, and now that they know it can be done he gives them a call. it might cost a guy a case of beer or 3 to find out now that half his lines leak because 5 years ago he shot at a squirrel on that old splitter with his shotgun at 30 yards lol

on the flip side, lets say a young guy, strapped for cash in high school has a junk hydraulic pump on his splitter and he tries to fix it due to my post and does not succeed, was it really a loss? when i was little i would screw crap up (lol and still do on occasion), not finish a project, take things apart and barely back together... but as i look back at it nothing was lost, i learned alot from it. it made any mechanic class i had from high school on easy.... a junk pump is exactly that, if ya screw it up more you only waisted your 4 hours learning (or his buddie got beer for at least trying), we are never to old to try things, i only hope that a fellow has enough brains to not do exactly everything you said! then again maybe its time they learned to follow directions, research or to stop when they are clueless and actually care about the outcome.

you may be right however, most mechanics with a bottom line wouldn't bother with any of this during working hours i wouldnt if the customer expects it to work like new, but from where I am from guys have friends with day jobs and we all have beer! I admit I am not normal as i am a A&P mechanic and a machinist and i love wrenching as much as machining, so maybe my views on reality are a bit blurred.... or maybe its the beer

-Leo-

Leo, you are spot on,..spent, No actually Dad did, Thousands of dollors, for me to get threw school,..and I didnt disapoint him,..Two total tractor rebuilds, Serious money spent in mechinacs class, I wish I had sompthing like that pump to fix,. As, see it works good,.. is always a boost for a kid in school,.Id do it today, If I needed too, Its just not pratical, If its done right, Eric,.

 

[wbnca]

-priming, not good for tank to be low, but should be ok. should prime itself IF the pump was good, as positive displacement pump will pull a vacuum and lift oil. If no suction leaks.... Still best to have oil in the inlet at start for lubrication and sealing. Putting oil in the outlet won't help, will push right back out. Not priming it originally might have caused the scoring, especially-if there was end thrust from the coupling.

<snip>

-The basic layout looks pretty good-sturdy, clean and not welded up from a pile of plates. I would put a new pump on it. Might be trash downstream, change filters often for a while. Not worth much as is, but with a pump, workable or saleable?

-or better yet, box it up and send it to me. I will dispose of it properly

k

See picture attached:

I did a final test using a elevated 3/4" to pump inlet so it would gravity prime. In doing so when the fluid level reaching the level of the rear pump shaft it starting leaking out the rear. I was able to pull the motor through in this state and got pressure readings as high as 1000 psi. Now I belevie the root of the problem is unable to pull and maitain a prime.

You suggested the following:

"Not priming it originally might have caused the scoring, especially-if there was end thrust from the coupling."

Question: Could this damage a new pump?


wbnca

 

[kevin j]

when you say leaking out shaft seal, meaning barely wet or gushing out? where oil comes out, air goes in. so the issue is not priming but suction side air leaks. Air could have caused the issues, and air would slowly compress and push the cylinder out. these were in prior posts. Don't recall if lyou mentioned shaft seal leaks.

Another advantage of tank above pump: with positive head, cracked hoses, fitting threads leaking, or bad shaft seal will leak oil out, (usually, although there can be suction leaks that do not leak oil at all when parked overnight), thus alerting the operator to a problem. With pump above tank, it doesn't leak oil, but could suck air destroying the pump. Also, the air leaks INTO the hose overnight and oil drains back to tank. Again, priming is not an issue, a positive displacement pump will self prime immediately on startup. But the air leak is an issue, then it won't primie if it is easier to suck air in through the leaks.

Yes, air leak or end thrust either one could have destroyed this pump. If there is an air leak elsewhere, it could destroy the next pump. If no other leaks, a new pump with it's new shaft seal and you are good to go.

Is it a two stage pump, two gear sections? One post referred to only a gear section, another talked aobut the rear gear section....

End thrust load was a long shot, as I thought you had said the suction side was fine.

So, I would do this: clean up the pump as bet you can. likely not permanent repairs, but try what OSN and gordy are talking about.

Put pump back on. Make sure the coupling aligns so there is no end thrust pushing the shaft back into pump. Tilt the splitter up (or put engine & pump on the floor?) so the tank is above the pump. Run it and test it, even with oil leaking out shaft seal if it happens. That is connected to suction port, should not be much leaking. Should NOT be under pressure at all. i.e should not spray out. It will sling off the rotating shaft everywhere.

Test it see if things work. Even an 11 gpm pump trashed might put out 1 or 2 gpm, at a few hundred psi. Take an extend time in seconds, and retract time in seconds, and read the stall pressure at end of stroke.

k

 

[triptester]

From the picture the pump appears to be a 2-stage MTE brand pump.

 

[wbnca]

If the fluid tank or source is higher then the pump the fluid leaks out the shaft to the coupling, just sitting there doing nothing it stops when the level in the tubing is at the same level as the shaft as seen in the picture, or if it where a tank till its is empty. Lower, than the pump just won't prime rather sucks air 90%, apparently it is draws some but not very much fluid.

I don't have a problem getting a new pump but somehow I don't think this is going to be the end. The beam has a slight twist at the front, it's only a 6" x 6" beam. One high pressure hose is showing signs of cracking. Not sure about engine, really won't know till a new or better pump is installed. The first 4 inches of the cylinder piston is pitted, probably left out to rust at one time or another.

I think at worse I would be into a new pump, and perhaps a Honda Horizontal Engine — 160cc with new coupling and inserts.

Comes to about $364. plus s&h

If I get lucky it will only be a pump and insert.

Will post when if I go with the pump and get it installed.

Now that the pump is primed I will try one more time before fully connected before pulling it off the splitter.

Thanks everyone for your help. Was a good trouble shooting thread for newbies like myself.

wbnca