Resurrect a neglected splitter

[kevin j]

forgot: mga has good point. If the RV is stuck open, with fiddling it may suddenly work right and go to high pressure. look through his pic/post/manual. Count the turns, but only put back in half as many turns after cleaning. You can readjust it later, we just need some pressure buildup meaning the RV is no longer stuck open, and the oil has to go across the spring and create some pressure/resistance.

Probably not use liquid wrench as cleaner. It is oil, but who knows what additives are there for creeping and penetration. If anything in there is rusted, there are way bigger problems with water in the oil, rust, etc. Just clean with brake cleaner, contact cleaner, carb cleaner (hard on hands), or starting fluid/ether. Caution with all, they can be flammable, especially ether obviously.


kcj

 

[wbnca]

Well I have a lot of respect for hydraulic equipment, more so when it's old.

With the splitter shutdown, and any pressure in the lines released moving the valve spool. I backed out the relief screw and keep track of the turns. The hex screw came out at 6 1/2 ccw turns. I removed the spring, pusher and ball. All parts were clean, apparently free? I cleaned the part with lint free towels gave a quick wipe, checked ball seat. I then reassembled and put the screw back in at 5 1/2 turns (torque started at 4 turns). So if it was set correctly I should be on the low side.

I need to pick up 1/2" and 3/4" plugs. Do I need to purchase special components such as stainless steel as these are in the high pressure side. Who would be a common supply source for such items, hardware or auto parts?

Question:

Could I just plug the "A" and "B" ports at the valve, then start the engine (control valve in center) now the flow should flow through to return filter then tank, correct? The with engine just about idle move valve control to extend or retract, briefly then wouldn't this show some pressure until such time the RV opens? Or would this be a dangerous practice?

I was thinking this would more less tell me if the pump is not leaking internally, and can flow enough to sustain pressure.

If this test worked then I would proceed with cylinder leak test.

Thanks for further direction.

wbnca

 

[mga]

i found that NAPA auto parts carries fittings.

if you get them, why not just hook everything up normal then try it out?

 

[drmiller100]

so you've got an engine running a pump.

run the ram out fully extended, or fully retracted, then hold the lever to try to force it to go further.

1 - Pressure gauge goes to 2500 and engine lugs down some (this is normal, or your goal.)
2 - engine dies. In this case, either engine is weak or pressure relief is set too high, or pump is sized wrong for engine.

3 - neither of the above. hmmmmm. I think this is what you are seeing. If this is the case, have someone hold the lever while you unhook the return line.
a. If oil is spewing out the return line, pressure release or spool valve is shot.
b. if no oil, then pump isn't pumping. might be out of oil, might have plugged suction line, might have plugged pump, might be shot pump.

 

[kevin j]

Could I just plug the "A" and "B" ports at the valve, then start the engine (control valve in center) now the flow should flow through to return filter then tank, correct?
*****yup, you got it.

The with engine just about idle move valve control to extend or retract, briefly then wouldn't this show some pressure until such time the RV opens? Or would this be a dangerous practice?
****no, common practice if done carefully. I did't mention before, not sure of your understanding and safety. Your questions indicate udnerstanding of what is going on.

I was thinking this would more less tell me if the pump is not leaking internally, and can flow enough to sustain pressure.
If this test worked then I would proceed with cylinder leak test.
****that would be fine. If the plugs are NPT, hardware store plugs are fine. Pipe elbows, not so safe, plugs are fine.


I think this is what you are seeing.
****that's my understanding, seeing no pressure buildup at stalled end of stroke.

If this is the case, have someone hold the lever while you unhook the return line.
a. If oil is spewing out the return line, pressure release or spool valve is shot.
****Nope, you SHOULD see oil coming out return to tank. Would be going across relief to tank line always. If you meant hose form cylinder rod end 'return' in that sense, then correct, should not see oil coming out of cylinder.

b. if no oil, then pump isn't pumping. might be out of oil, might have plugged suction line, might have plugged pump, might be shot pump.
*****an obvious thing, I didn't think of before, take hose off the valve inlet, take pump output direct to a bucket and see if there is flow at no back pressure.

****Also, if only 2 turns into the spring of the RV, the pressure might be low, but there should be something better than 0. Could try carefully screwing the RV in and out, but cautiosly.

****do you by chance have any other relief valve, inline or something? That's an easier test, run pump to dead end against RV, outlet of RV direct to tank, with gauge, and increase the adjustment. That would normally be done with an inline flowmeter to test flow vs. output pressure, but assuming you don't have a flowmeter in your back pocket....

****Still betting on pump not turning right. or something in suction?

k

 

[user 19670]

You sure the key hasn't fallen out of the motor/pump shaft? This small item can cause these problems.
With mine there is no guard on the shaft and you can see if the coupling turns or not under load. (Am gonna make a guard as soon as the weather co-operates).

 

[wbnca]

Well, are you ready for this???


I hooked it all backup and also relocated pressure gage on "T" going into valve assembly.

Fired up motor which really isn't putting out all that well but runs, after a short warm up I moved control to extend, slowly it starts to move out finally after awhile it's get to the end.. I move control to retract, comes back faster all the way into the cylinder. I go to center..

All this time the pressure is "zero", I shut the ending off, wait 10 seconds, engine still off, and now if I move the valve control to extend 3 seconds or retract 3 seconds I can hear bubbles going into the return tank.

Now that any pressure has been relieved, I disconnected the hose out of the filter which is connect to the return on the tank and tie it high so it won't syphon the oil out of the tank. Now I connect the output of the filter to 2 foot section of 3/4 inch hose to a gallon milk jug placed inside of a 5 gallon pail in case of overflow.

Now I start up the engine with control valve centered, and observe the output from the control valve and I wait, wait, still waiting, hello.. hm mm

maybe valve, extend... piston moving out,,, valve retract,, piston moving in..
everything is as it should be except,,, "No-Pressure-No-Flow" There is absolutely nothing going into the gallon container.

Is it possible that I am driving this thing with compressed air?

I've checked:

Tank is full
Tank strainer has been cleaned and clear.
Output filter is a new 20 micron canister from Kobota.
Suction and return lines are new.
RV seems free and clean.

The drive from the engine to pump appears to be ok, I had the pump off once. In fact I almost took it apart unintentionally.

I read somewhere that these pumps require a minimum of 5 hp, could that be an issue, I would think I would get something.

Are all pumps self priming?

When I tore the lines apart to move the gage there was ATF fluid at the pump output and that line as I had to drain it but not a lot?

I think I am at the point I should remove the pump and have someone check it?

Can I take it apart? It has one smaller hex nut on top and a bigger one on the bottom. One output 1/2" NPT.

Last question, can you break out in a rash form ATF fluid?

Thanks again..

I'm about ready to give this splitter to a good home before I get hurt. I think is this pump would work the engine won't. If you get my drift.

wbnca

 

[cabinman]

Key????

Well, are you ready for this???


I hooked it all backup and also relocated pressure gage on "T" going into valve assembly.

Fired up motor which really isn't putting out all that well but runs, after a short warm up I moved control to extend, slowly it starts to move out finally after awhile it's get to the end.. I move control to retract, comes back faster all the way into the cylinder. I go to center..

All this time the pressure is "zero", I shut the ending off, wait 10 seconds, engine still off, and now if I move the valve control to extend 3 seconds or retract 3 seconds I can hear bubbles going into the return tank.

Now that any pressure has been relieved, I disconnected the hose out of the filter which is connect to the return on the tank and tie it high so it won't syphon the oil out of the tank. Now I connect the output of the filter to 2 foot section of 3/4 inch hose to a gallon milk jug placed inside of a 5 gallon pail in case of overflow.

Now I start up the engine with control valve centered, and observe the output from the control valve and I wait, wait, still waiting, hello.. hm mm

maybe valve, extend... piston moving out,,, valve retract,, piston moving in..
everything is as it should be except,,, "No-Pressure-No-Flow" There is absolutely nothing going into the gallon container.

Is it possible that I am driving this thing with compressed air?

I've checked:

Tank is full
Tank strainer has been cleaned and clear.
Output filter is a new 20 micron canister from Kobota.
Suction and return lines are new.
RV seems free and clean.

The drive from the engine to pump appears to be ok, I had the pump off once. In fact I almost took it apart unintentionally.

I read somewhere that these pumps require a minimum of 5 hp, could that be an issue, I would think I would get something.

Are all pumps self priming?

When I tore the lines apart to move the gage there was ATF fluid at the pump output and that line as I had to drain it but not a lot?

I think I am at the point I should remove the pump and have someone check it?

Can I take it apart? It has one smaller hex nut on top and a bigger one on the bottom. One output 1/2" NPT.

Last question, can you break out in a rash form ATF fluid?

Thanks again..

I'm about ready to give this splitter to a good home before I get hurt. I think is this pump would work the engine won't. If you get my drift.

wbnca

LIKE GORDIE SAID, make sure the shaft is turning ful rpms and not slipin...

 

[wbnca]

I had the pump off once, I will check again see if I put it back on correctly.

Before I pull the pump I will take the output and put it into a pail and confirm no flow.

I will attempt to find an exploded view of the pump and tear it down or take it to a shop to be tested.

Since the engine isn't running all that well, and likely the pump is shot too how hard would it be to convert this old splitter to electric if even possible?

What ever I would split here I can get to with my tractor and haul 18" length rounds to the splitter.

I've looked at a working ROYBI and it would split about 80% of my oak splitting needs from the looks of it. It is well made, compact and reasonably priced.

I also have 220 in garage I use for my compressor.

Just looking for suggestions, if I thought I would go with gas I would just get a new 22 ton from TSC rather then put new parts into this old splitter, unless I convert it to electric.


Thanks again
wbnca

 

[mga]

I had the pump off once, I will check again see if I put it back on correctly.

Before I pull the pump I will take the output and put it into a pail and confirm no flow.

I will attempt to find an exploded view of the pump and tear it down or take it to a shop to be tested.

Since the engine isn't running all that well, and likely the pump is shot too how hard would it be to convert this old splitter to electric if even possible?

What ever I would split here I can get to with my tractor and haul 18" length rounds to the splitter.

I've looked at a working ROYBI and it would split about 80% of my oak splitting needs from the looks of it. It is well made, compact and reasonably priced.

I also have 220 in garage I use for my compressor.

Just looking for suggestions, if I thought I would go with gas I would just get a new 22 ton from TSC rather then put new parts into this old splitter, unless I convert it to electric.


Thanks again
wbnca

remove the line coming out of the pump and place that in a bucket.

remove the spark plug from the engine.

pull or crank the engine to turn the pump. if the pump is working, you'll see oil coming out into the bucket. don't try this with a running engine.

 

[jags]

remove the line coming out of the pump and place that in a bucket.

remove the spark plug from the engine.

pull or crank the engine to turn the pump. if the pump is working, you'll see oil coming out into the bucket. don't try this with a running engine.

Ding, ding, ding We have a winner. Also, if you DO get fluid, with the same test, screw your "T" fitting and gage and use a plug to plug the other "T" fitting port, while pulling over by hand or bumping the starter, does the pump create pressure? Warning, don't get excited with this test and build too much pressure, watch your gage and then let sit until pressure bleeds off before disassembling the test setup. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO START THE MOTOR FOR THIS TEST. By hand or starter you typically will not be able to create dangerous pressure before your starter or arm can't turn the engine any further.

 

[wbnca]

Well we are on to something..

Plug removed...

Output hose from pump to pail, also lower than pump.

After 20 pulls of cord, with engine shaft and pump shaft turning we got no flow or just about a ounce at best.

I removed the hose from pump output and connect pressure directly to the output of the pump. After 10 pulls the needle never even moved.

There is oil at the top of the pump that I see when I removed the gage.

I will pull off siphon hose verify it is full of oil. If full as I expect it should be I will remove pump for inspection.

Good test, I didn't know you could get pressure and flow with pull cord.

wbnca

 

[mga]

Well we are on to something..

Plug removed...

Output hose from pump to pail, also lower than pump.

After 20 pulls of cord, with engine shaft and pump shaft turning we got no flow or just about a ounce at best.

I removed the hose from pump output and connect pressure directly to the output of the pump. After 10 pulls the needle never even moved.

There is oil at the top of the pump that I see when I removed the gage.

I will pull off siphon hose verify it is full of oil. If full as I expect it should be I will remove pump for inspection.

Good test, I didn't know you could get pressure and flow with pull cord.

wbnca

when you take the vacuum hose off, remove it from the pump first. if you get oil flowing out, you'll know it's not clogged in the tank or line.

if the oil flows slow, there might be a strainer inside the tank that could be clogged.

just check the easy things first before ripping the pump apart.

 

[user 19670]

Can you post any pictures of this splitter? It might help these guys a little to know things like is the pump inlet low enough to be filled with oil and a pic is worth a thousand words.

 

[kevin j]

check the coupling and keyways. Look in the suction or pressure ports of the pump and pull the engine over, do you see it turning.
The small hex plug is probably a check valve inside, the outlet of the small section. The larger hex, with jam nut and adjustment is the unloading pressure adjustment. Both can be taken apart.

I am still betting its not driving pump right: shaft, coupling, or internal shaft problems.

 

[mga]

Can you post any pictures of this splitter? It might help these guys a little to know things like is the pump inlet low enough to be filled with oil and a pic is worth a thousand words.

amen to that.

 

[wbnca]

check the coupling and keyways. Look in the suction or pressure ports of the pump and pull the engine over, do you see it turning.
The small hex plug is probably a check valve inside, the outlet of the small section. The larger hex, with jam nut and adjustment is the unloading pressure adjustment. Both can be taken apart.

I am still betting its not driving pump right: shaft, coupling, or internal shaft problems.

Strainer filter was checked and cleaned.
Suction hose 3' in new and clear, when I took it off the pump is was full to the same level as the tank. When I lowered the 3/4' hose ATF would gravity flow from the hose.

Pump:

Key in place, not very high 1/8"

Top Hex cover with a slot in it covers a small needed shaped valve with a flat top. Hex cover has a oilring seal intact.

If I blow air into the top hex opening with the valve removed the input shaft turn ccw looking at pump from engine side and air out the rear seal using 60 psi.

Bottom hex nut covers a spring and ball, both clear, cleaned and reinstalled.

I drove the pump with an electric drill CW it does nothing. I can hear it turning perhaps clicking inside, but I don't know how to separate the parts? I have no drawing. No suction when driven by drill.

The number on the end of the pump is 2790 R10 if that's any help?

I need to swap a pump out for testing or have this pump tested?

wbnca

 

[cabinman]

Air

wbrica, the pump is probably toast, But as I posted eariler If the seal on the back of the pump is sucking air, That might be your problem,.I would stick the pump in a pail of oil up to the fittings and a short hose (suction side) in the oil, twist it with your drill and see if it pumps oil,..that should eliminate the possability of a blown seal causing the pump to well, not pump, If you have a clicking noise, in your pump, thats a bad thing, Id pop it apart and have a look, A new pump is about 150/175.00 delivered, Eric

 

[mga]

I drove the pump with an electric drill CW it does nothing. I can hear it turning perhaps clicking inside, but I don't know how to separate the parts? I have no drawing. No suction when driven by drill.

just for laughs, turn the pump counter clockwise with the drill and see what happens.......

 

[wbnca]

Well I figured how to disassemble the pump today. Seals seemed good, not sure about the input shaft at the rear of the pump. I did find one gear where the tip was blue from heat, it has been cutting into the face of the pump stage. When I put the pump together the motor shaft would freeze. After I ground down the face of the gear at the point in question I was able to reassemble the pump and tighten and the shaft is free. All the gears inside turn freely.

I was hoping that was the fix, I guess not but the piston still moves out and back but no pressure on gage. I still don't understand how it can do that with any oil flow? I may get one or two full strokes from cylinder then the engine dies.

I think I am just going to pull my gage off and pack it in. It's like sinking money into an endless pit without some old parts to swap.

I will post pictures if I ever figure out how to do it.

I have to reduce the size first.

I really appreciate everyone's help.

Thank you all.

wbnca