rig guy wirestops

[Tree Machine]

I likely install 70 or 80 cables a year on an average. Over 40 years that is around 3000 cables, so my opinions are more than conjecture.

And this is why I respect your opinion. Experience counts for a lot in this business, and you've got gobs more than me. What you're saying is that what you've used works. That's A-OK. You're comfortable with it, you like it, you're dialled into that way. Nothing wrong with that.

But to dash a new method, primarily because you like a different method, that's just not very scientifically based.

I have the 'privilege' of regularly inspecting former cabling work of Arborists of the past, both intact, failed, and on the way to likely failure. The failed ones allow me to better understand the 'weak link' in these systems. Generally, it seems to be soft annealed cable along the lines of where the strands wrap around the cable in a traditional splice. It is because of this repeated observation that I went to EHS cable as the general practice.

I don't like the termination of this system and I do not like the hidden portion of the cable inside the stem.

Hidden cable inside the tree or hidden J-lag or thru-bolt? Any invasive system will have a hidden, non-inspectable component. You have an issue with it being the actual cable over whatever else. Likes and dislikes are just that.

Hacksawing cable in the tree is just another thing that is troublesome.

Hacksawing in the tree, or from the bucket? There's a difference. Using soft-grade cable or EHS with your cutting tool? I like the simplicity, compactness, lightweight and economy of a hacksaw. I had formerly hoisted a small generator up so I could use a corded 1/2" drill and an angle grinder with the thin, metal cutting blade to sever the cable. I could defend the speed and efficiency once there at the point of the procedure, however, as a climber in the overall beginning-to-end procedure, the practical sense trumps all. I invested in an 18V Li-ion cordless impact drill/driver since I can use this for a myriad of other purposes. I've used a gas powered drill, awesome, but sort of limited to the variety of things it can do, takes up much more space and more weighty and bulky to climb with..... but truly an awesome tool, in and of itself.

Why has not the ANSI committee acknowledged this system? I am sure they are being pressured to do so.

I don't think they publish based on pressure, but rather more likely scientifically-based, objective testing and measures. Some things just take time. I've only been using wirestops for four years, never had one fail, but from the long-term standpoint I can't make a comment, except to speculate and I won't be able to inspect any decay profiles unless one of these trees becomes a takedown. In about 90% of the cases I'm installing the cable(s) to prevent the tree having to be taken down.

 

[treeseer]

one could not help but think that some of this conjecture is used by the standard makers in their positions of writing them.

Don't count on anyone going fishing here or anywhere else for your/our pearls of wisdom. If you have a comment/s, it needs to be written clearly and submitted to your org's committee rep.

O and if you have done 3 or 3000 or 300,000 systems one way, how does that elevate your thoughts on a system that you have not used to a level beyond conjecture? I've tied into trees 10,000,000 times with a prussik knot, but that does not make me an expert on a distel or a schwabisch.

 

[Tree Machine]

I think any system should be judged and evaluated based on it's own merits, irrespective of other systems.

 

[treevet]

Don't count on anyone going fishing here or anywhere else for your/our pearls of wisdom. If you have a comment/s, it needs to be written clearly and submitted to your org's committee rep.

O and if you have done 3 or 3000 or 300,000 systems one way, how does that elevate your thoughts on a system that you have not used to a level beyond conjecture? I've tied into trees 10,000,000 times with a prussik knot, but that does not make me an expert on a distel or a schwabisch.

As usual I do not agree with your post. I am not vain enough to think policy makers are waiting by the puter for my next remittance on cabling or eab, or climbing techs, etc, etc.....but I do think they (they being committee mbrs. and not nec. any more qualified than I am) would have the propensity to push the search button on one or all of the forums prior to considering the topic they have been chosen to brainstorm.

I also think it is silly to even state that someone that has put in 3 systems as compared to someone who has put in thousands are on even ground. I think there is no question someone putting in a conventional system many many times and witnessing the lifespan and integrity of them can pass judgment on something they have not used but just viewed the components of. The 2 of you, dashing conjecture, have little background to pass judgment on these systems yourselves in that mindset as although you have installed them, they have not been around very long to let deterioration enter the equation.

Do you consider yourself an expert on rigguy? Is there any unbiased testing on the components you can present?

NO??? Well then you are just full on conjecture (could have used another word) yourself.

 

[treevet]

And this is why I respect your opinion. Experience counts for a lot in this business, and you've got gobs more than me. What you're saying is that what you've used works. That's A-OK. You're comfortable with it, you like it, you're dialled into that way. Nothing wrong with that.

But to dash a new method, primarily because you like a different method, that's just not very scientifically based.

I stated that I do not like the cable section inside the stem unable to be inspected and I do no like the termination set up, I am not basing dislike or being leery of on an exclusive desire just for conventional system.

'weak link' in these systems. Generally, it seems to be soft annealed cable along the lines of where the strands wrap around the cable in a traditional s. plice

Most of the failures I have seen come from incompetent installation (other than weather extremes)

Hidden cable inside the tree or hidden J-lag or thru-bolt? Any invasive system will have a hidden, non-inspectable component. You have an issue with it being the actual cable over whatever else.

I would assume the solid tightly fit larger dia bolt will outlast stranded cable pushed thru the hole.

don't think they publish based on pressure, but rather more likely scientifically-based, objective testing and measures.

Didn't say they publish based on pressure, just said bet they are getting pressure.

I've only been using wirestops for four years, never had one fail, but from the long-term standpoint I can't make a comment, except to speculate

Now that sounds like conjecture Treemachine.

 

[pdqdl]

This thread has inspired me to e-mail the boys at Rigguy. Here is the transcript of what I sent, and what they sent back:
(I addded the emphasis on their quote)

********************************************************************************************
> Below is the result of your feedback form. It was submitted by
> David Little ([email protected]) on Tuesday, June 16, 2009 at 19:22:36
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Question: In a recent thread at ArboristSite.com
> (http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1591539#post1591539), it was
> pointed out that the Rigguys do not conform to ANSI standards because they do
> not have a washer for "through hardware".
>
> Are there any probabilties that your equipment will become ANSI certified, and
> do you offer any washers that will allow the dedicated arborist to remain in
> compliance with the regulations concerning washers?
>
> Action: Submit
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
David,

Thanks for your inquiry about the Wire Stop. The washer is somewhat of a non-issue for two reasons. First, the standard was written to address a through bolt installation that needed a washer for the relatively small nut. The Wire Stop for 3/8"-5/16th strand is 1.125 inches in diameter about the same size as a washer. Second, While I do not see the need for a washer using Wire Stops, there is no reason that they can not be used. However, We do not not sell the washers. In six years of use, there has never been a reported case of a Wire Stop pulling through a branch or trunk.
We would very much like the ANSI standard to address the issue and are active in having that done at the next standards meeting. In the mean time, they have said that the Wire Stop does conform to all the should clauses in the standard and can be used even thought it is not directly addressed in the standard. This is also true of the "Cobra System". Please call if you have further questions.

Thanks again for your interest,


Steve Tillitski

706.340.1288
********************************************************************************************
I will be sending them a note requesting a quotation from somebody at ANSI, instead of a relatively useless comment from the manufacturer.

 

[treeseer]

Nice work going to the source, David. 6 years and 1000's of installations is a ton of testing and a growing track record. You will hear back from ANSI if you send a comment to your rep and wait.

 

[pdqdl]

I guess I wasn't too clear: I will ask Rigguys who THEY talked to at ANSI that indicated their stuff was ok. What they e-mailed me did not sound exactly credible.

Myself, I must admit that I am not concerned with whether or not ANSI approves of their equipment. I may be wrong, but I don't fear any lawyers about any cabling job I do.

Nature put the tree there, and nature made it fall. "Nothing made by man has ever lasted forever, so why would you expect a cable to last forever?"

Besides, I don't have enough money to get a lawyer interested in suing me. They go for the deep pockets, and here I am in my boxers with no pockets at all.

 

[treevet]

Nice work going to the source, David. 6 years and 1000's of installations is a ton of testing and a growing track record. You will hear back from ANSI if you send a comment to your rep and wait.

Not trying to be contentious but I emailed Robt. Rouse (chairman) a year ago re some of my feelings about the cabling standard and got nada.

 

[treevet]

Myself, I must admit that I am not concerned with whether or not ANSI approves of their equipment. I may be wrong, but I don't fear any lawyers about any cabling job I do.

This seems like a very naive opinion IMO and may get you in trouble.

Nature put the tree there, and nature made it fall. "Nothing made by man has ever lasted forever, so why would you expect a cable to last forever?"

Once you put a support system in nature has been altered by you. This may be extenuated by time and extreme weather tho I suppose. Cables def. have a life span although the ANSI does not address this yet I do not think.

Besides, I don't have enough money to get a lawyer interested in suing me. They go for the deep pockets,

Sometimes they just go for the throat.

 

[pdqdl]

Yeah. I hate lawyers. I will raise my price on almost any work if I find out they are a lawyer: I have had too many just not pay the bill, believing they can afford a legal battle better than I can.

I have been doing work since 1982, and I have never been sued for anything. Some of that is luck, some of it is just taking care of problems when they are really my fault. Part of my luck might just be because I am too bold to consider suing without having a legal knock-down dragout battle (I will NOT roll over and pay money for a fraudulent claim), and most of that luck is based on me not having enough money to fight for in court.

Ok, who here at AS has ever been sued over a cable failure? No guys, don't get out your law books and look for a stack of precedents, whom here has REALLY been sued?


[On the merits of strength of case and probability of winning a judgment, I'll bet a lawsuit against tree cabling can almost never be won in court unless the cables fell apart shortly after they were installed. I will further bet that most of the lawsuits that get filed are based on damages to property that was already highly at risk]

 

[treevet]

My bet is you find cases in Merrulo or Bloch's Tree/Law books but I can not recall for certain. At 60 my memory is sometimes not dependable and I don't feel like digging. I would also think that if death was involved with the failure and cable involved that law suits would be flying all over the place.

Few weeks ago I had my GM back out this lag out of an elm that just died from the DED. I then slabbed the piece and found it was installed 20 years ago. The cable was long gone and obviously was installed without a thimble.

My opinion (conjecture ofcourse) is that a strand (cable section) inside the tree for twenty years would be worthless.

I might even consider enamel painting this lag and reusing it if I was in a spot for one more it is so solid and sound.

 

[pdqdl]

Why do you think the buried strand would be in poor condition? The bolt looks to be in pretty good condition, and bolts are not galvanized nearly as thickly (usually) as are cables.

Steel does NOT rust according to its exposure to water, or high humidity conditions. Rust is a chemical reaction with oxygen; water seems to accelerate the process, probably by increasing the molecular contact with more oxygen, probably facilitated by pH changes and other corrosive minerals. I imagine there is much less oxygen and corrosive minerals inside a tree than in the atmosphere, but I really don't know.

I don't know whether surrounding strand with living wood from a tree would be any more damaging than just out in the atmosphere with the elements. I will GUARANTEE that barbed wire lasts a lot longer inside the trunk of the tree than it does out in the air.

I can show you LOTS of old hedgerows where the ancient barbed wire has completely rusted away, but you had better plan on getting dull chains from all the buried wire.

 

[treevet]

Why do you think the buried strand would

be in poor condition? The bolt looks to be in pretty good condition and bolts are not galvanized nearly as thickly (usually) as are cables.

The strand/cable is porous and smaller diameter than the bolts (5/16 cable compared to, say a 5/8 lag equals a 10/16 lag) and may be half the thickness.

Steel does NOT rust according to its exposure to water, or high humidity conditions. Rust is a chemical reaction with oxygen; water seems to accelerate the process, probably by increasing the molecular contact with more oxygen, probably facilitated by pH changes and other corrosive minerals. I imagine there is much less oxygen and corrosive minerals inside a tree than in the atmosphere, but I really don't know.

The first 2 sentences contradict each other. The rest is conjecture and assumption and inaccurate imo. I have read that chems are more prevalent and a dark damp atmosphere inside this stem segment that aids corrosion and also there will be more of an air space in Rigguy. This may be why Treemachine seeks to push the cable/strand thru the same dia. hole. You can see by the picture of the 20 year bolt I posted there is little difference in the inside and outside portion of a tightly fitted lag. I often put my lags 2/16 (1/8) smaller dia. hole than the lag instead of the recommended 1/16" smaller.

will GUARANTEE that barbed wire lasts a lot longer inside the trunk of the tree than it does out in the air

.


We have a real tight fit here, with likely no air space for oxidation.


Again, my concerns with this system are:

1. It is not mentioned by ANSI and not, as you stated, nec. just because of lack of washer. If it is not standard practice or best management practice and failure can cause a catastrophic accident, then I follow standards. Your call out to everyone reading this thread to raise their hands if they have been sued for cable failure probable reached 10 or 20 readers. There is likely precedent in success of these suits.

2. I don't like the likelyhood of strand/cable to fail way earlier than bolts in the hidden portion of the stem that cannot be inspected. I am going with the longer lasting hardware in that uninspected space.

3. I don't like the diminishing diameter termination that may fail given deterioration that will occur and given that shock loading will occur. I don't like the fact that the cable/strand is separated at the termination, leaving the individual wires more subject to corrosion and failure.

4. I don't like the non stable aspect of the cable leaving the interior side of the drilled hole as opposed to the stable eye or lag. I think that with movement of the flexible cable that will occur, the area of the hole will never occlude due to this movement and constant injury from it.

This is a new system and, unlike a dynamic system, it is being installed to protect targets where a fault in the tree exists and the targets are likely high level. I may try it in a decade or so with a proven track record and of course inclusion in ANSI standards.

 

[Tree Machine]

We really need to look at oxidation and basic electrochemistry, sacrificial anode and such. I think a better understanding of this will, let's say, give you a better understanding of this. And 'you' not meaning anyone in particular, but the readership as a whole. Entire books are written on this, but I think we can get what we need from an online source.

My wife asked me why zinc oxide was in sunscreen, and I didn't know. In looking it up I came across other zinc references, galvanization anodic protection, corrosion and such which interests the heck out of me. I never did learn why zinc oxide is an SPF ingredient.

I don't have the moment to dig up the link(s), running a bit late for my day job, but could someone link us to something at Wikipedia to start? I swear this will address pdqdl's last post and Treevet's. Let the science speak.

 

[arbor pro]

My bet is you find cases in Merrulo or Bloch's Tree/Law books but I can not recall for certain. At 60 my memory is sometimes not dependable and I don't feel like digging. I would also think that if death was involved with the failure and cable involved that law suits would be flying all over the place.

Few weeks ago I had my GM back out this lag out of an elm that just died from the DED. I then slabbed the piece and found it was installed 20 years ago. The cable was long gone and obviously was installed without a thimble.

My opinion (conjecture ofcourse) is that a strand (cable section) inside the tree for twenty years would be worthless.

I might even consider enamel painting this lag and reusing it if I was in a spot for one more it is so solid and sound.

I've been looking at the rigguy system simply because I've had bad luck with using lags on smaller diameter branches. Though I use only a standard lag spinner for installation, I often end up cracking or breaking lags during installation. Others break weeks or months after installation indicating that a stress crack must have occurred during the install process. I've also had instances of a cable slipping off of a j-lag (installed with a thimble and wrap). In such instances, the cable was slightly taught after installation however, slack occured during a wind event and the loop slipped off of the lag.

My installation proceedure today is the same as when I was taught in arboriculture class two decades ago by a very well-renowned tree expert. I'm pretty sure I'm doing things right but, I sure do have problems with lags. (BTW - the lags are purchased from Sherrill Supply, not some corner hardware store).

Anyhow, that's why the rigguy system interests me. I'd like to do away with lags and bolts all together but I've been hesitant for the same reasons as everyone else. I don't want to switch to a system that may fail prematurely.

I don't do nearly as many installations as some of you guys so, even though I've been cabling for 20+ years, I consider myself little more than a novice at it doing maybe a dozen installs a year at best.

 

[Tree Machine]

Here's a couple interesting photos from a takedown I did yesterday. I don't really have any comment on them. They say what they say. You have to do your own interpretation.

 

[treevet]

Not much to interpret without some background and/or more picts. Nice splice!

If it was a removal......not much room for comment on what could be done. Seems like if it was not a removal it was time for the lead to come out or at least another cable to augment that one and prob some pruning with that extensive cavity. New cable would've had to eliminate the lag choice and had a termination nut and washer although that lag was still functional if not for the decay. Seems like it was still functional anyway. Cable prob was way past the end of useful life if not broken.

You have to wonder if that lead (pictured) was responsible for bracing another lead over a high level target. If so we get closer and closer to removal.

Nice picts. Tree Machine.

 

[Ekka]

Competitor products too.

http://www.endz.biz/

http://www.endz.biz/installationmanual/

 

[treevet]

Wonder if our Rig Guy friend is the litigious type?

Stay tuned to find out. :greenchainsaw: