rig guy wirestops

[Tree Machine]

Nice splice!

Agreed.

Seems like it was still functional anyway. Cable prob was way past the end of useful life if not broken.

It was still intact and very, very tight. I did a tightwire walk across it from one stem to the other and it held.

I sort of wish I'd taken other pictures. It was a leaning trunk, on the gutter up against the house, the bulk of the crown over the house, the rest over a perennial garden. Nothing that would overly impress most of the crowd that runs here.

Hey Treevet, if you don't mind me asking, other than you personal dislike of the cable being inside the tree, that you're not so keen on new methods and just plain being OK with the systems you've used in the past, do you see any other problem with the wirestop system?

Also, if I'm reading anything wrong into the above question, do let me know.

 

[treevet]

I have to add also

1. Don't like the termination where the cable is separated and thus more subject to delamination or degalvanizing and then hitting the weakest link scenario when individual strands fail. Seems to me a nut and washer or 24 individual threads on a 5/8 lag bolt biting into wood would be a more certain hold or termination.

2. Don't like the unstable cable as opposed to a bolt where it enters the drilled hole. Seems the movement would prevent closure where a stable bolt would not.

Did you guys get any work from the big blow Thur nite? We got a pretty big hit down the road here.

 

[chris_girard]

Here's an answer that I got from Bob Rouse at TCIA regarding the RIGGUY system:

"At the last revision of A300 Part 3, the A300 committee decided that there were no A300 Part 3 standards that prohibited the use of RIGGUY wire stops/systems.

They also decided that placing the wire stop system in the standard by name or under a new generic “wedge and ferrule” category was premature, they wanted to see a little more field use and experience.

So, when the RIGGUY systems are installed correctly and the current A300 Part 3 standards are met, the systems will meet A300 standards, even though they are not referenced by name.

Let me know if you have any more questions,"



Bob Rouse, VP of Industry Standards & Credentialing
Tree Care Industry Association, The Voice of Tree Care
P: 603-314-5380 ext. 117 • C: 603-203-4962 • F: 603-314-5386

136 Harvey Rd., Suite 101 Londonderry, NH 03053 www.tcia.org

 

[treevet]

Here's an answer that I got from Bob Rouse at TCIA regarding the RIGGUY system:

"At the last revision of A300 Part 3, the A300 committee decided that there were no A300 Part 3 standards that prohibited the use of RIGGUY wire stops/systems.

They also decided that placing the wire stop system in the standard by name or under a new generic “wedge and ferrule” category was premature, they wanted to see a little more field use and experience.

So, when the RIGGUY systems are installed correctly and the current A300 Part 3 standards are met, the systems will meet A300 standards, even though they are not referenced by name.

Let me know if you have any more questions,"



Bob Rouse, VP of Industry Standards & Credentialing
Tree Care Industry Association, The Voice of Tree Care
P: 603-314-5380 ext. 117 • C: 603-203-4962 • F: 603-314-5386

136 Harvey Rd., Suite 101 Londonderry, NH 03053 www.tcia.org

"wedge and ferrule" termination, I thought that was their sticking point.

"Let me know if you have any more questions" yeah if you catch him someplace face to face. If you e-mail or write or call him like it says on the standard.....you won't get a reply for years. Probably too busy out signing autographs.

 

[treeseer]

"Let me know if you have any more questions" yeah if you catch him someplace face to face. If you e-mail or write or call him like it says on the standard.....you won't get a reply for years.

standard says to submit written comments to your org rep which in your case is bruce hagen. commitee reviews comments regularly at meetings then provides feedback. follow the channels and you will be heard and responded to; that is my experience, and others'.

 

[treevet]

standard says to submit written comments to your org rep which in your case is bruce hagen. commitee reviews comments regularly at meetings then provides feedback. follow the channels and you will be heard and responded to; that is my experience, and others'.

Wrooooooong!

"Suggestions for improvement of this standard should be forwarded to" A300 Secretary, c/o Tree Care Industry Associati9on, 3 Perimeter Road-Unit 1, Manchester, NH 03103, USA (Secretary being Mr. Bob Rouse as I stated) or e mail: tcia.....

I emailed the org., got no response, phoned TCIA, the person who answered the phone gave me Rouse's e mail addr. and I emailed him and haven't had a response in a year. Forgotten now what I was suggesting but I am sure it was of huge importance lol.

 

[treeseer]

well either should work but i stand corrected. Dunno about the autograph thing but i'd suggest resubmitting *specific* comments, and you should hear back.

 

[treevet]

well either should work but i stand corrected. Dunno about the autograph thing but i'd suggest resubmitting *specific* comments, and you should hear back.

I will give it another try and report back.

I did have very specific comments and since I spent one evening shooting some pool with Mr. Rouse in Saranac, New York about 20 years ago at Paul Smith's at a Shigo seminar, kinda thought I might get a reply. What a peaceful place renting a cabin on the lake there.

Nobody's perfect, I will again give it another try. I would love to know how they feel about the hidden aspect of cable in the drilled hole and would also like to know why they do not mandate a life span that is documented initially and monitored on cable installations.

 

[Tree Machine]

I would love to know how they feel about the hidden aspect of cable in the drilled hole and would also like to know why they do not mandate a life span that is documented initially and monitored on cable installations.

The life of a cable is different in different parts of the country, one of the biggest factors being the acidity of rain and then, as you would presume, the amount of that low pH rain. As well coastal areas with salt spray coming off the water are affected.

We really need to look at oxidation and basic electrochemistry, sacrificial anode and such. I think a better understanding of this will, let's say, give you a better understanding of this. And 'you' not meaning anyone in particular, but the readership as a whole. Entire books are written on this, but I think we can get what we need from an online source.

My wife asked me why zinc oxide was in sunscreen, and I didn't know. In looking it up I came across other zinc references, galvanization anodic protection, corrosion and such which interests the heck out of me.

Well, I did some further searching on this and came about some known and predictable behaviors of metals, metal interactions, anode protection, oxide protections, electrochemical potential and how it all relates to corrosion and base-metal protection.

 

[Tree Machine]

My first reference is from my dad. He's not a treeguy, but he owns a boat on the Gulf of Mexico. On the back of the boat, beneath the waterline, is a big hunk of metal called a 'zinc' named so because it's simply a big block of zinc. It is attached by a conductor line that's in direct contact with the metal parts of the engine. Corrosion protection is offered to the metal parts of the engine through the preferential consumption of the zinc. It's an electrochemical law of electricity first described by Alex Volta back in the late 1700's. At the same time another dude, Galvani was doing similar investigations and came up with electrical laws that stand today because these physical laws do not change. They involve far more discussion as to how they works, but Zinc, in contact with ferrous metals, will be sacrificed preferentially, keeping the ferrous metal from itself becoming corroded (oxidized).

On a side note, chrome and iron work opposite to this. Chrome is protective as long as the surface of the chrome plating is unbroken. Once the iron beneath is exposed, it will preferentially corrode, as shown by the bumper on my Toyota.

/

The next reference is from a metallurgist who listened as I asked corrosion questions specifically about our cable systems. He shared with me electromotive force, valence electrons and other stuff I'll spare you the details, but specifically I asked him about the zinc coating on the cable, life expectancy, and very specifically, the area inside the tree and whether this area was going to be more prone to corrosion. He said electrochemistry doesn't work that way. Anode protection, as he called it, offers galvanic protection of the entire cable, not a specific part of the same cable. He asked me if I've ever seen a zinc galvanized cable that is rusting in one area and still coated in zinc in another. I told him I've seen plenty of rusty cables. He asked if I've seen any rusty cables that still had zinc on them. I had to answer honestly "No." He said that's because all the zinc needs to be consumed before the iron will oxidize. "How about ungalvanized cable attached to galvanized thimbles and galvanized lags?" Same thing, the zinc on the thimbles and lags will be sacrificed, or 'spent' before corrosion begins on the cable itself, as long as there is direct contact of the two dissimilar metals. Interesting.

What about the Zinc coating 'flaking off' when the strands of the cable are opened up and one central strand bent? He was looking at a picture I had of a traditional cabeling splice. "Like this?" I said, well, kinda, but then showed him a picture of a wedge and ferrule termination. He said hot-dip galvanization of iron forms a metallurgical bond to the parent metal where the two metals form a 'contact alloy'. It is not a 'plating' or simple surface coat and is not applied electrically through an anodization process like chrome. The steel is simply dipped in molten zinc and the natural bonding occurs.

What about nicks that may occur on the surface of the cable, exposing a portion of the iron hidden beneath? What about the cut ends of the cable? Again, the laws of electrochemistry apply. He also said zinc oxide and zinc carbonate (elemental zinc reacting with oxygen and carbon dioxide in the air) is a powerful surface protectant of the zinc itself and will surface-coat adjacent exposed iron, as long as there is direct contact. He said if bending and 'delamination' were a real concern, we should be more concerned with opening up the cable and winding 7 individual strands around and around the mother cable as compared to putting a mild bend in one single strand. "However", he says, "Electrochemically speaking, its all the same."

 

[D Mc]

TM, that was some great information. Thanks for posting it.

Dave

 

[pdqdl]

TM, that was some great information. Thanks for posting it.

Dave

:agree2:

That was exceptional information, and reveals good counter arguments to some real concerns by others in this thread. It's too bad we can't cite some metallurgical reference in support of what has been asserted.

I have seen cable rusted where galvanization is still present, so it is not quite as definitive as it has been described above. For example, we have all seen rusted-out car bodies where the galvanized sheet metal is partly rusted out and where other parts are flaking paint off the perfectly good galvanyl beneath. Probably a lot of folks don't realize they have seen it, but it is in every junkyard in the country.

 

[treeseer]

:agree2:

That was exceptional information, and reveals good counter arguments to some real concerns by others in this thread.

Mr. TM has an amazing grasp on finding out how things work.

It's too bad we can't cite some metallurgical reference in support of what has been asserted.

It's gotta be out there; maybe a mfr. has the interest to decipher and deliver it.

 

[treevet]

Anyone have a comment on the flexible aspect of the cable where it leaves the stem? If a bolt it would be rigid and a non issue but because it is flexible and since a tree doesn't always pull in a straight line with swirling winds....IMO the cable continually reinjures that hole and ruptures wall 4, CODIT the most important wall.

 

[Tree Machine]

Mr. TM has an amazing grasp on finding out how things work.

Yea, thanks to Wikipedia. LOL.

I strongly question the comment I put out there that an ungalvanized cable will not corrode until the galvanized portions of the anchor are spent. Fortunately, (I hope) ungalvanized, regular steel cable is not used except by hardware store cabelers and homeowner types.

Anyone have a comment on the flexible aspect of the cable where it leaves the stem?
IMO the cable continually reinjures that hole and ruptures wall 4, CODIT the most important wall.

Sure, I'd like to comment on that with pictures. First, though, I'd like to start with a reference from Dr Alex Shigo, that injury causes responses in trees of which callus formation is one. I'm paraphrasing, not quoting, but we all know this to be true. Injury causes the tree to form callus. Callus is simply undifferentiated cell growth that in the case of injury eventually differentiates into xylem (wood) tissue. Differentiated xylem (that wood which has arisin from a wound site) has an enhanced and unique ability to form more callus more quickly. In a tissue culture lab, there's a fast way to get callus to multiply more quickly; pull apart the lump of callus into a number of smaller pieces and cell division and production is accelerated.

Ok we (field arborists) don't work in laboratories, but biology is biology.

Reinjury of an injury will stimulate callus growth which differentiates into what we call wound wood. This cycle is central to injury response and is fundamental as a survival mechanism. Whether there is an existing crack in a trunk that keeps refracturing the callus line, or a cable is protruding out a stem, this stimulus causes callus tissue to keep reforming.


The pictures I spoke of above are from a cabling job I started yesterday. I didn't have the camera, and then the battery ran out on the drill, the other battery sitting at home in the charger. I took this as sign to bail and come back later. The pictures refer to a couple points made by contributors above (cable rusting where galvanization is present, flexible cable/ reinjury at the cable's entry site).

Then I have some biology-as-it-relates-to-zinc that I feel it really important to put out (and scientifically reference).


Again, I'd like to point out that I'm not in an argument with Treevet, or defending wirestops. We're just simply trying to substantiate claims made through biology and physical science.

 

[treevet]

Sure, I'd like to comment on that with pictures. First, though, I'd like to start with a reference from Dr Alex Shigo, that injury causes responses in trees of which callus formation is one. I'm paraphrasing, not quoting, but we all know this to be true. Injury causes the tree to form callus. Callus is simply undifferentiated cell growth that in the case of injury eventually differentiates into xylem (wood) tissue. Differentiated xylem (that wood which has arisin from a wound site) has an enhanced and unique ability to form more callus more quickly. In a tissue culture lab, there's a fast way to get callus to multiply more quickly; pull apart the lump of callus into a number of smaller pieces and cell division and production is accelerated.

Ok we (field arborists) don't work in laboratories, but biology is biology.

Reinjury of an injury will stimulate callus growth which differentiates into what we call wound wood. This cycle is central to injury response and is fundamental as a survival mechanism. Whether there is an existing crack in a trunk that keeps refracturing the callus line, or a cable is protruding out a stem, this stimulus causes callus tissue to keep reforming.

Callus has nothing to do with wall 4. Wall 4, the barrier zone, the strongest wall, simply stated is the wall between wood present at the time of the injury and wood formed after the injury. There is nothing beneficial in the wounding of callus.

Wall 4 is the reason we find a large tree stem still standing with no wood inside it and being held up by a thin doughnut of wood on the perimeter keeping it erect. This may be good and can certainly be a neg thing as extreme weather can cause failure.

Anyway, if we are re injuring wood formed after the initial wound is made (the cable abrading the circumference of the drill hole).....well, that ain't good.
This IMO is how a gaping cavity and eventual failure can develop and occur. (not to mention the failure of the cable).

Unrelated to this but relevant to this thread is that time of wounding is of importance.....

Wounds made in spring at the time of leaf expansion will have a moderate cambial die back.

Wounds made in summer or mid growth period, usually have very little cambial die back.

Wounds inflicted in the fall, or after the growing period will have a large area of cambial die back.

In other words, this time of year may be the best time to install cables if there is an opportunity or need.

 

[Tree Machine]

Wounds made in spring at the time of leaf expansion will have a moderate cambial die back.

Wounds made in summer or mid growth period, usually have very little cambial die back.

Wounds inflicted in the fall, or after the growing period will have a large area of cambial die back.

In other words, this time of year may be the best time to install cables if there is an opportunity or need.

I definitely need a reference on that one. And cambial dieback due to what? Cable-induced wounds, pressure from hardware, pruning, storm damage, .... all of the above? Are you talking cambial dieback, or rate of cambial production

 

[treevet]

I definitely need a reference on that one.

Modern Arboriculture, Alex Shigo, page 145

cambial dieback due to what? Cable-induced wounds, pressure from hardware, pruning, storm damage, .... all of the above?

wounds......from drilling......for cable installation in relation to this thread (you've always seemed more on the ball than that ....pruning, storm damage?? )

Are you talking cambial dieback,

Yes TM.....I am talking cambial dieback (see my post you referenced) then Alex was talking cambial dieback.....and then you were asking about cambial dieback (see above quote)

 

[treevet]

Does anyone on this thread think it is even conceivable for 3/8 stranded cable to have anywhere near the lifespan that a solid 5/8 bolt hidden in the drill hole would assuming both were professional quality galvanized hardware?

 

[treeseer]

Does anyone on this thread think it is even conceivable for 3/8 stranded cable to have anywhere near the lifespan that a solid 5/8 bolt hidden in the drill hole would assuming both were professional quality galvanized hardware?

It depends.

Do support systems fail due to bolt failure?

what is your point?

o and read p 145 is the phrasing that absolute? cambial dieback that i see is not due to drilling but to large branch removal.