Rigging w/ biners, instead of a knot..?

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Lumberjack
... and easier to tie when I cant see it (other side of the tree or whatever)

 

[NickfromWI]

Originally posted by RockyJSquirrel
Nick-
Just how many times per day do you rope 1500 lb limbs? I cannot remember the last time I did, but it was most likely attached to a crane with a steel cable and clevis, not a lowering line and biner. You keep trying to wig off and distract the topic but everyone else is talking about normal, typical limb lowering here. Production work type stuff, not intense rigging of huge loads.

You only have to do it once for it to break, Rock Just because you use a crane for the big wood, it doesn't mean everyone else does.

Wig off?? Just trying to add my two cents worth. I agree with you whole-heartedly....there is little risk in using a 'biner in this way for small stuff. The bigger the wood, the riskier it gets....that's all.

We gotta find the fastest safest way to get the job done. Sometimes that means you can rig a whole lead rather than piecing it off.

I love ya, man!

love
nick

 

[Lumberjack]

I was just makin the point that it is easier for me to tie it than a bowline, without thinkin about it (not lookin till i am done dressing it).

I can tie the bowline (I know what you think abou climbers who can't), but I perfer the 8.

 

[Koa Man]

I have been using steel carabiners and a sling for rigging for about 10 years now. So much faster than knots. The biggest pieces I will usually rig out of a tree on a lowering line is about 750 lbs. Never had the need to go rigging out a 1500 lb. piece in one shot, although I have free dropped pieces that must have weighed well over 3000 lbs. in one cut.

 

[Dadatwins]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster

Gotta agree on this one. Just my old fashioned dinosaur side coming out.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by NickfromWI


We gotta find the fastest safest way to get the job done. Sometimes that means you can rig a whole lead rather than piecing it off.

You got that right!

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i would think that an 8 would jam easier than a bowline for loading more than nominal/body weights esp.

i think that a double/ roundturn/ mountaineer bowline with a Y tie off is symetrical enough for easy inspection, also closer in strength to 8 on long arc of line, easier untie. Bowline made with the slip knot method, runs smooth enough for me to do blind etc. i'll use it for about anything as my temporary eye in the end of the line.

Taking 8, to more Stevedore and further strategies makes it more secure, stronger and easier untie as it approaches a loose eye splice in construction(?); but on heavy loading, dragging etc.; all around use i kinda like that lil'bowline myself.

In dragging a half hitch before a timber hitch makes a straighter pulling, less load on the joint of the timber hitch drag called a killick. i further think that any loop knot drags straighter, more stable preceded with half hitch, also perhaps the lenght of tensed line between the half hitch and running bowline/carabiner enters into the equation, as well as which direction it pushes. The dragging/pivot point would be calculated fram the first half hitch choking ring.

i think that carries over to overhead rigging also in many ways.

 

[Kneejerk Bombas]

I disagree with using a carabiner in the way being discribed. It is wrong. If you are lowering a little limb, then it's only a little wrong, if you are lowering a big limb then it's really wrong. Either way it's wrong.
It takes no more effort to use a sling, made of webbing or rope, along with a carabiner and girth hitch. It is even easier, I'd say. More importantly, it's right. A double locking rope snap works much easier than a carabiner too.
I can't believe there are fools here defending side loading a carabiner!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Maybe it's time for Tom to ask Mr. Moorehouse about it.

 

[Lumberjack]

For my TIP when climbing I make a wrap or two before clipping the biner.

When lowering wood, there is no resistance against the wood from spinning (that wraps would cause) until it loads the biner with a side load.

I use slings whenever possible. I too have bent and broken steel biners from side loads, so side loading should be avoided.

 

[PRUNER 1]

i probably shouldnt be telling but i have taken 150-180lb lumps off on xtc with dyneema slings, or just using a bowline and steely biner. as long as you put a half hitch first then your clipped n snatched biner, then not as much force, obviously i wouldnt snatch/top down this kind of weight on this system as that would be stoopid bu for swingin in the wind then fine. sayiing that i only do this if there aint nothing to break in drop zone. i probably havent exp-lained it that well but hey, not that computer literate. ps i do use proper slings and bulls when stuff is breakable near dropzone!

 

[Lumberjack]

Ok... I am confused.

Why would you use a biner and a bowline, instead of one or the other? Can you explain or show a pic?

XTC is fine for rigging pieces that size, isnt its TSL around 700? that would make a SWL of 700 pounds.

Oh, and why rig when you could bomb?

 

[PRUNER 1]

biner and bowline coz the rope i use was an old climbing line and splice was lost

 

[Lumberjack]

Oh... the Bowline was used to make the eye on the end of the rope for the biner to clip into.

Then that is what this thread is about.

You are sayin that you make a half hitch then the choker with the biner?

 

[PRUNER 1]

that is correct and i find it way quicker than using slings, coz u have to find somewhere to clip your biner and rope while u tie up the sling and then attach the sling to the biner. effort and time!

 

[Lumberjack]

When I need a quick click to hold the rope while setting the sling, I just hook it on my saddle, where ever is convient.

The half hitch would take some of the load, but it would still side load the biner.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

When I was in Wales last year this came up when I was with Denny. It's a no no. How come this isn't obvious? It goes to show how un-read most people are. Take some time to Google a little instead of jabbering here and learn how these tools are meant to be used.

MM says it right...once again. Wrong is like being dirty, you're either clean or dirty, right or wrong.

Anyone who's breaking steel biners is doing something to scary to consider.



Tom

 

[Tom Dunlap]

RJS,

This comes from this thread itself, go back and read the thread before blasting me.

dbeck
Member

Registered: Mar 2003
Location: baraboo, wi
Posts: 83


I have never heard of a running bowline breaking under load, but I have heard onseveral occasions of side loaded carabiners (like you folks speak of) breaking under load. This tells me something...like you shouldn't do it. That being said, I have never done it.
However, I have been involved in knotlesss rigging where there is a locking ladder snap or biner in a splice attached to a loopie girthed around whatever is being lowered. This seems to be the acceptable scenario IMO.

There have been plenty of broken biners mentioned in other threads too. This isn't the first time this came up and you should know that.

Anyone who breaks a 50kN biner doesn't understand rigging forces. They've lived their lives dodging near misses until an accident occurs.

Have I ever choked a steel biner or rope snap? Sure...small loads with minimal slam dunk loads. Do I do that regularly, nope. Much easier to sling stuff or tie it off.

Tom

 

[PRUNER 1]

i think something is a bit too big if its breaking stuff. do it smaller and take ten more minutes, so what

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Take off the carabiner and use a marl or halfhitch under a bo'lin