Rigging w/ biners, instead of a knot..?

[Ax-man]

Seems like no one is listening to Tom or Mike.

If you MUST do this type of rigging, a small clevis would be a tool better suited for this purpose.

Biners are easier to work with no doubt. but if your breaking them using them as is being discussed here, you might as well take $20 - $ 30 bucks out of your wallet and throw it in the street and let the wind blow your hard earned money away. That is basically what your doing, throwing money away when you use biners this way.

Larry

 

[jmchristopher]

In my office, we're going to doublelocking climbing clips for our spliced in rigging, and knotted in where the loads are light. I'm trying to figure out how to keep them segregated out of life line service...paint or maybe coloured quick ties in the eyes? MM, you've got it.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

My trademark pink spray paint has a long life on my hardware. There are lots of little nooks to hide paint. Pick a distinctive color.

Another option is to get some colored seizing string and wrap it around the splice.

If you use thimbles in the splices you could get two different colors.

Tom

 

[RescueMan]

Back on page 2 of this thead, TreeSpyder said:

If the choke meets and forms a 120 deg. angle at that meeting, each leg of that choke starts around the load carrying 1x the load force itself. At 150 deg. that is each leg 2x load; jumping to almost 3x at 160deg; accelerating loading greatly from that point.

But he's confusing vector loading a doubly anchored line in the middle with choker loading.

Vector loading a taut line increases the anchor loads exponentially, but choker loading creates a maximum 2:1 load at 0 degrees, decreasing to 1:1 at 180 degrees.

- Robert

 

[RescueMan]

If you want to use a steel link as a choker on a round turn, though it would be a mite slower to lock, why not use an inexpensive but very strong screwlink. They can stand a lot more abuse than a carabiner and can handle side loading.

- Robert

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by MasterBlaster

Not to drive a point into the ground, but...

 

[MasterBlaster]

Thanks for your insight, Brian.

 

[Ax-man]

Brian,

You didn't start this thread, TJ did and you are only commenting.

I can understand where your coming from, trying to find a compromise to an aggevating problem. At least your being conservative, where others are going to the extreme.

The main problem here is this running bowline. It is one of the hardest knots to teach someone. This is what leads to using biners, instead of knots, it is easier and and doesn't require so much thinking.

I don't know how many times I have shown some one how to tie a running bowline. They can do it on the ground, but as soon as they get in the tree, they confused for some reason. You can see the frustration they are having by looking at their faces and from watching their hands. I guess untieing a knot a hundred times doesn't count as being able to tie it.

If I see this happening I have them send the rope back down, tie a bowline, send back up with sling and biner. They can figure out this combo, but can't do a knot. I hate doing this because sooner or later they think you can get by with out the sling, which leads the biner taking a hit on the gate, making it useless.

Larry

 

[rumination]

You gotta be kidding me!! Are there really people who cannot untie a running bowline? I'm not saying that I don't believe you Rocky, it just boggles my mind. I understand that contract climbers (Rocky, Butch) do not get to choose their groundmen but no tree company should have an employee who is incapable of untying a knot.

 

[Dadatwins]

It truly is unfortunate that so many people who are in this business can not tie the bowline. Seems like my dad taught me that knot before tieing my shoes. The place I work now only a few use bowline most use clove hitch with a few half hitches which I think is disaster waiting to happen. I think its a shame that a lot of the tried and true methods of this business are lost simply because someone "can't learn that knot"

 

[NickfromWI]

I highly doubt there are a significant amount of groundman that cannot UNTIE a running bowline. What I would believe is that a climber up in the tree who has such an intense understanding of that knot sees it as being soooooo simple. Combine this with the fact that the ground guy might not be so familiar with the knot. Then add a little bit of sense of urgency on the side of the climber (who wants to get the job done fast), throw in some frustration and impatience....VIOLA! Now you have a groundguy who "cannot" untie the runnin' bowline.

It's not that they can't untie. Be patient. They'll figure it out. It IS an easy knot, once you know how to tie it.

love
nick

ps- make it even easier on them by making it a slippery runnin' bowline!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by NickfromWI


It's not that they can't untie. Be patient. They'll figure it out.

I dunno. So far, I've only lost $20!

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9853&highlight=Bowline+Mindblock

 

[Ax-man]

Originally posted by NickfromWI
I

ps- make it even easier on them by making it a slippery runnin' bowline!

____________________________________________________

That really isn't that bad of an idea, Nick. Let's not stop there, why not put an extra bight in it an make it a Bowtie Bowline

 

[OutOnaLimb]

I think Rocky nailed that one right on the head. But what do you do when it is the boss that cant tie a running bowline and it takes him 5 minutes to figure out how to use a autolock biner? You think I am kidding. Just today I had to show him again how to tie a bowline into his rope snap while I was trying to give him a little tree climbing lesson. I swear, people who know nothing about trees and climbing have no business owning Tree Services. You know what they say about teaching pigs to sing dont ya? You only waste your time and annoy the pig.
Any who, back to the point. I use a biner from time to time. the only thing I hate is when you try and yank it out of a crotch that is above your head and said biner is turned into a projectile flying back at your noggin at about 90mph. But I do use it all the time doing spruce removals. I can toss it over a higher branch, clip it to the branch Im cuttin and once it is cut free, I can simply unsnap the biner and drop the cut branch away from any obsticles. ie. house, fence or wires. Hey, if it works, roll with it.

Kenn

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by OutOnaLimb
... the boss that cant tie a running bowline and it takes him 5 minutes to figure out how to use a autolock biner? You think I am kidding.

No, I don't think your kidding. My only respite is that he ain't my 'boss', he just owns his business.

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by rumination
You gotta be kidding me!! Are there really people who cannot untie a running bowline?

Yes, my friend, unfortunately there are a lot of just plain stupid people working in this business. If they had any brains, they wouldn't be in the tree business. A prime example of stupidity is one of my groundmen, who knows that he is to gas and oil my saw when I am climbing up. I get to the top of a 50 ft. tree and ask him to send up my saw. At this point he opens the gas cap and tells me, "It's empty, should I gas it up first?"

Does a question like that deserve an answer?

 

[TreeJunkie]

Nick, I disagree w/ your idea of tying a slippery running bowline. Iv'e had this knot come undone while roping down, not a good thing,,,it leaves an area which if snagged could cause complete knot failure. I was intro'd to this knot by some old timers while running storm work in the carolinas last year, some old timers were telling me how it's faster to tie and untie..Then i came back home to work w/ my reg. company and showed it to a couple of good climbers i worked w/ one who'd been w/ asplundh for quite some time. This was a big no no i was told, and sure enough after contiuing usage of this knot for a while i saw why.....

To the tune of having ********* on the crew who can't figure out how to untie a knot........ If after being shown how to a time or two and the guy is still unable to perform this simple task w/ efficiency, then in my opinion i don't need this guy working underneath me,,,,,,If he's that dumb, he's an accident waiting to happen....

 

[Koa Man]

If I am rigging without using a sling and carabiner, I normally use a timber hitch instead of a running bowline. Much faster to tie and untie and I never had one come loose on me yet. A hard jerk on a big log can make a bowline very difficult to untie.

 

[TreeJunkie]

Climbers Knot knowing their Knots..

To the tune of having a climber who is incapable of tying all of the basic knots,,,,,When i was first getting into climbing a couple years back i wasn't exactly proficient w/ all of the knots out there...Then along came a nasty ice storm, and along w/ that along came a grey haired grumpy old man named Tom, j/k In that month i worked w/ tom he taught me alot, one thing he told me was back home w/ his business, a climber doesn't go into the tree until he shows proficiency w/ all the basic knots needed in the tree.. At the time I didn't like hearing this b/c i was that guy, who shouldn't have been climbing yet...But it awakened me. And what did i do i went home and practiced over and over till i got it...Thanks Tom! It's the principal of knowing what your doing completely before ever leaving the ground....If all climbers took this outlook there would be many less accidents w/ in our industry....

 

[xtremetrees]

Id like to rigg these buggers out