Sawing charges...

[NCDiesel]

So I was wondering: What don't sawyers charge by the surface foot, or cut, instead of the board foot?

The reason I am asking is the fellow that did all my sawing is retiring and he did project pricing. I never knew how or why he came up with his price, but he was always reasonable. He is now retiring and I am shocked at the prices :msp_ohmy: at the other mills. They charge by the board foot and they are MUCH more expensive .

So I asked my sawyer and he said that is because he comes up with the number of saw cuts and charges by the saw cut. Basically $x.xx per trip down the track with the carriage (he has an old Frick). He said the unit of work for a sawyer is a trip down the track and he just decides what each trip is worth to him, and then multiplies it by the number of cuts and adds 10% for margin of error and 10% for fuel, teeth, etc.

The second reason I am asking is I am buying a band mill and taking over some of his customers. I am not experienced enough to estimate the number of cuts and make a project price, but would still like to charge by the cut or surface foot. I don't like charging by the hour because some customers will never be completely happy with any hourly contractor that doesn't run at full speed between every station and sweat like a mule. Plus there are days when maybe I have a cold or a sore knee and just want to slow it down and don't want to feel like I am ripping off the customer on those days.

Since no one else I know of, or can read about on the Internet, charges by the surface foot or saw cut I must assume there is a big drawback. but I cannot think of it. Can someone enlighten me?

PS: I would still have a minimum and a travel charge. I just think charging by the surface foot or saw cut makes sense, mainly for that customer that wants 1/4 inlay pieces out of a 28" log . It also helps out the homeowner who wants a 6x12 mantle out of the old walnut his grandad used to sit under.

Curious minds would like to know - thanks!

NCDiesel

 

[qbilder]

Charging by the cut makes a lot of sense. It would be more honest, if that's really the correct word. For instance, two logs the exact same size but one is milled 4/4 & the other milled 8/4, they would cost the same amount to have milled but one requires twice as many cuts. That's if you were charging by bf. Charging by the cut is a good method, if you can figure out what it costs you to make a single cut.

How about set a price for making a cant, which includes loading the log on the mill and slabbing off the four sides to get ready for lumber making. From that point, charge for every board the customer gets. This way if you screw up a cut or your saw blade takes a dive & ruins a cut because you let it get too dull, the customer isn't paying for it. Take this with a grain of salt as I saw only for myself & friends/family. I don't charge them for sawing. But if I were hiring a sawyer, i'd want something really fair for both of us & easy to comprehend. I'd want everything easy to understand so that we both can see what's happening and know what i'm being charged for. Otherwise there's room for questioning whether you got ripped off or not, and that's a feeling I don't like so I wouldn't want my customers feeling it, either.

 

[Dave Boyt]

Consider all the other stuff that goes on besides cutting wood-- loading and turning logs, offbearing, cleaning the mud off, and mill maintenance. If you are providing the logs, that time/expense is the same, no matter how you slice it. Charging by the surface are of the cuts needs to take all this in to account, but you have to keep your price structure simple enough that your customer will understand it. That's why I charge by the hour for running my portable sawmill, with extra for mileage, and a set up fee if I move the mill. If the customer wants, I can keep track of the time and board footage for a log and tell him how much it cost.

 

[les-or-more]

It works both ways, you can get screwed by the cut if someone asks you to saw a lot of small logs. Small logs = more time turning the log, more bark and dirt to deal with and faster band changes.

 

[NCDiesel]

It works both ways, you can get screwed by the cut if someone asks you to saw a lot of small logs. Small logs = more time turning the log, more bark and dirt to deal with and faster band changes.

I agree, by the hour is the simplest. The small log thing is why I really like qbilder's "Cant charge" idea. You can build handling into that.

However time to 'fess up: Here is the real reason I brought this up:

After looking at the per hour charges all the band mill operators are invoicing (40-55) in this area, I, as a customer, keep getting the feeling there is a lack of transparency, with a whiff of expensive sawdust mixed in the aroma of walnut. So now that I am thinking about milling myself, I want to avoid this in my customers. In short, I am looking for a pricing plan that fair, predictable, repeatable, and simple.

I have 4 local band mill operators in my town. They sit idle 90% of the time. Two have woodmizers, one has a Cooks and the 4th has one I don't recognize (never been on property but I can see it from the road). I personally used one of the Woodmizer guys while my mentor was hospitalized about 5 years ago. The Woodmizer mill was slower than my sawyer's Frick and he charged by the hour. Needless to say I paid twice what I normally pay and only got 30% more lumber for 100% more payment. Never tried it again.

So when the idea got floated around by my sawyer that I should take up milling, he thought I should go with a band mill. I asked why. All these other guys sit idle - why wouldn't I sit idle? I thought I should just buy his Frick. He emphatically stated this is a bad long term move and should go the band mill route.

Now my regular sawyer a very old guy who has done this for 60+ years. He thinks the local band mill operators' lack of regular work and success is because they all have their pricing wrong. He says he beleives this because many (majority??) of his new customers got portable band mill quotes before they bring him thier logs. His advise was to shake the local band mill pricing up. In short, he was telling me the band mill pricing structure in this area is diminishing their market share, not enhancing it. He really suggests being innovative with the fee schedule and he thinks people will come.

So as Paul Harvey used to say: "Now you know the _rest_ of the story"

What do you think - any ideas or stories of innovative fee schedules that left customers happy and the sawyer reasonably compensated?

 

[Dave Boyt]

What do you think - any ideas or stories of innovative fee schedules that left customers happy and the sawyer reasonably compensated?

If you try to compete head-on with a big lumber yard, it won't happen. If you lower your price to match someone who is retired and just looking for something to do, your mill will be just another listing on Craig's List. If you can't make reasonable money on a cutting job, then it is best to turn it down, or have the customer turn you down. As long as everyone knows what to expect up front and no expense has been incurred, other than the time of looking at a cutting job and making a bid, you can do that, and still part on good terms. The first question is, "do YOU know how much it takes to run the mill (including a fair wage for yourself)?

One thing I've done is to scale a potential customer's log pile, using the 1/4 International scale, and add 15% to accommodate the band saw's think kerf. Then evaluate the pile of logs for size, straightness, quality, & species, and adjust the bid accordingly. I would double the bid for hedge or hickory, because it is so hard to cut and dulls the blades quickly, and I'd charge more per bd ft for post oak with a lot of knots that would slow me down. Crooked logs take longer to cut, and may yield less than half the lumber of a straight log the same size. I've had customers gladly accept a $.55/ bd ft bid to cut some small, low quality walnut, and I've walked away from another who tried to talk me down from $.30/bd ft to cut fencing. My pricing has nothing to do with the value of the wood, but is based on my best guess of what I need to make the job worthwhile. Remember, once you've agreed to do a job, you've got to go through with it. If you really want to make a customer happy, charge a less than the original estimate if you can still come out OK on the deal. Finally, if you run a portable sawmill, charge a set-up fee and a reasonable mileage. Good luck!

 

[NCDiesel]

If you try to compete head-on with a big lumber yard, it won't happen. If you lower your price to match someone who is retired and just looking for something to do, your mill will be just another listing on Craig's List. If you can't make reasonable money on a cutting job, then it is best to turn it down, or have the customer turn you down. As long as everyone knows what to expect up front and no expense has been incurred, other than the time of looking at a cutting job and making a bid, you can do that, and still part on good terms. The first question is, "do YOU know how much it takes to run the mill (including a fair wage for yourself)? ...snip... Good luck!

Thanks. I am going to need it. Considerig there are still probably 6-8 part time circle mill sawyers operating in the area in addition to my mentor(who is not a big outfit - he is single blade and part time too), I am going to have trouble getting any work whatsoever using a band mill unless I really break down the pricing wall the local bandmill guys have built and get band mills back into the list of first choices for folks with logs.

NCDiesel

 

[Arbonaut]

How did I get back in the milling forums? Haha. OK, hi guys.

 

[les-or-more]

I agree, by the hour is the simplest. The small log thing is why I really like qbilder's "Cant charge" idea. You can build handling into that.

However time to 'fess up: Here is the real reason I brought this up:

After looking at the per hour charges all the band mill operators are invoicing (40-55) in this area, I, as a customer, keep getting the feeling there is a lack of transparency, with a whiff of expensive sawdust mixed in the aroma of walnut. So now that I am thinking about milling myself, I want to avoid this in my customers. In short, I am looking for a pricing plan that fair, predictable, repeatable, and simple.

I have 4 local band mill operators in my town. They sit idle 90% of the time. Two have woodmizers, one has a Cooks and the 4th has one I don't recognize (never been on property but I can see it from the road). I personally used one of the Woodmizer guys while my mentor was hospitalized about 5 years ago. The Woodmizer mill was slower than my sawyer's Frick and he charged by the hour. Needless to say I paid twice what I normally pay and only got 30% more lumber for 100% more payment. Never tried it again.

So when the idea got floated around by my sawyer that I should take up milling, he thought I should go with a band mill. I asked why. All these other guys sit idle - why wouldn't I sit idle? I thought I should just buy his Frick. He emphatically stated this is a bad long term move and should go the band mill route.

Now my regular sawyer a very old guy who has done this for 60+ years. He thinks the local band mill operators' lack of regular work and success is because they all have their pricing wrong. He says he beleives this because many (majority??) of his new customers got portable band mill quotes before they bring him thier logs. His advise was to shake the local band mill pricing up. In short, he was telling me the band mill pricing structure in this area is diminishing their market share, not enhancing it. He really suggests being innovative with the fee schedule and he thinks people will come.

So as Paul Harvey used to say: "Now you know the _rest_ of the story"

What do you think - any ideas or stories of innovative fee schedules that left customers happy and the sawyer reasonably compensated?

I can't help much, this area is flooded with Amish mills, I hired one of them with a band mill to come and cut the last bunch of logs I got out. He cut them for less than it would have cost me to buy bands and gas to fire up our own band mill. He charged me $90 a thousand, could have gotten them cut for $75 if I loaded and trucked them 3 miles to an Amish with a circle mill.

 

[Dave Boyt]

The ONLY way you're going to beat the circle mills with a small band mill is to cut odd sizes they don't want to fool with, and logs that the circle mill can't handle. Short logs, walnut crotches, quarter sawing, and odd dimensions. Network with woodworkers. It may not be enough to keep you busy full time, but it will pay for the mill. Take care of your customers, and keep track of your time and expense. It will take time to build up a business. My hourly fee sometimes amounts to over $1.00 per board foot on special woods that are small or difficult to mill, but if it is what the customer wants, I go for it. For example,there is no way a circle mill could have produced lumber from this cherry log, but it produced over $400 in slabs for table tops.
View attachment 279330 View attachment 279331

 

[Rio_Grande]

Biggest problem we run into in our area is nobody wants to quote a price. Can't say how many times I have heard just drop it off and we will do it. Well how much? Finally got a guy to quote a quarter a foot, but then there is a set up fee, and if a athlete are any problems, and ipay for broken blades,,,, did I mention we decided to build a saw? I would much rather just get a price and drop it off.

Do you guys charge for broken blades? That would be like us charging for a broken track on our skid steer? Seems like that comes out of my pocket as the operator.

 

[NCDiesel]

Biggest problem we run into in our area is nobody wants to quote a price. Can't say how many times I have heard just drop it off and we will do it. Well how much? Finally got a guy to quote a quarter a foot, but then there is a set up fee, and if a athlete are any problems, and ipay for broken blades,,,, did I mention we decided to build a saw? I would much rather just get a price and drop it off.

Do you guys charge for broken blades? That would be like us charging for a broken track on our skid steer? Seems like that comes out of my pocket as the operator.

Not sure if this will help but I will give you my experience. Every band mill quote I have received has me paying for broken bands. Every circle mill I have worked at (and every one I have used as a customer) absorbs the cost of teeth UNTIL they reject further sawing. At that point it is up to the customer to pay for teeth if they ask the sawyer to continue. A circle mill might reject a log they think might have obstructions(ie came out of a yard), but if they don't reject it they pay for the teeth until they stop sawing.

This is easier for the circle mill because they don't have costs up front traveling to the customer.


NCDiesel

 

[Dave Boyt]

A broken blade is just part of the business. No blade lasts indefinitely, and if it happens to break while cutting for a certain customer, it is unfair to expect the customer to pay for it, just as I would not charge extra if my portable sawmill gets a flat on the way to the job. If the blade hits metal in a log, then I charge for a sharpening (a nail) or a blade (ceramic insulator, bolt, etc), depending on the damage. I've never broken a blade from hitting trash in a log, though I suppose it could happen. Two things to consider; band blades typically cost less than $30, and they're not going to send carbide teeth flying if they hit a horseshoe.

One of these days, I'm getting a metal detector, but unless it is a yard tree, the occasional nail just isn't worth the time.

Good luck building the saw, and let us know how it goes.

 

[Rio_Grande]

I understand both sides. I will update regarding the saw build, I only have a few more things to scavenge and I will get the build part going. I have a bunch of cedar to cut into boards.