Side work

[Xtra]

One of my guys started doing side work. Unless it at his house, I feel it's a conflict and competition.

He has no credit and asked me to buy him some rope and rigging gear and take it out of his pay. I said no way!

If you want to do side work and act like a business. Then take the plunge and pay the "hidden" costs . . . insurance, taxes, maintenance, rent, marketing, etc. Otherwise you're just a hack, even if you do good work.
And cause the rates to lower by underbidding.

If you really need the extra money that side work brings, then you're should have picked another company or profession that pays better.

 

[BlueRidgeMark]

Mark,

I don't know how much you know about arboriculture

Not much, but a lot more than I did before I found this site!

but Clearance, who is a big proponent of 'side work' is a tree climber that SPIKES every tree he climbs. By definition in the USA spike climbing trees for trimming that are not encroaching on power lines is hack work.

But I know enough to know that!

Call 'em what you will but doing tree work without a business license, insurance, workers comp, paying taxes, etc. is illegal.

In most jurisdictions, yes, and it wouldn't surprise me to find that it's true everywhere.

If these 'side jobbers' are legitimate then the work they do is not a 'side job' but instead is the normal operation of a legitimate business.

Well, we've had one business owner tell us that he has an arrangement whereby his guys do "side work" on small jobs that he doesn't want. As long as they are doing it legally, and have the permission of their employer, I don't see a problem with it.

I suspect that's a rare situation, though.

So do the side jobbers measure up? Or are they mostly just crooks running an illegal business on the side?

Well, is it "mostly", or is it "all"? I suspect "mostly" is an accurate statement, just based on human nature. But it's kind of hard to make "all" statements stick.

But legality is one thing, quality is another. Good work can be done illegally, just as hack work can be done legally.

 

[rebelman]

I think treeco tells it like it with most side jobs being hack work, but like someone said, hack work is also much more noticeable(usually.)

I think you can pay like six hundred bucks cash to helpers before you have to report that.

Turning folks in though, I think it should be don't ask don't tell. If they follow standard, cut 'em some slack. Yes, if they prune to standard, be more lenient. Traditionally clearance crews I've known could get you a brand new saw cheap as hell. The pyramid structuring of foremen seemed almost like a front. Maybe standardizing clearance practices and enforcing that really is the way to clean up residential. Intiguing thread.

 

[clearance]

Treeco never did answer my question/fact that he accepts cash for tree work and does not declare it to Uncle Sam, I don't care but when you come off like the sun shines outta your ass you should be able to defend your holyness. Fact is guys have been doing side jobs in whatever trade they are in since day one, guys, whether they be business owners or employees stuff undeclared cash in thier jeans everyday. Deny it, anyone? What about climbing removals with spurs?, most tree jobs here are removals, trees grow like weeds in the rainforest, so you are talking sh-- again. Some tree services don't pay a decent wage, overtime, jew thier guys every which way they can, and then get all upset about side jobs, get lost. Hypocrites, and Mark, why you licking Treecos boots?

 

[1I'dJak]

i don't need all that crap to go cut a few storm damaged limbs at my buddies house or to remove an alder tree with a busted off top at my in laws place... where i've done most of my 'side work' is at an area where there's no legitamate tree service... and to get there you gotta take a ferry to get there... when i'm visiting people want a few things done and i do it for cash money... undeclared... i don't have insurance yet... that's my risk... soon to be rectified as i plan to dedicate more time to this... it's not 'hack work'... i do a better job than when i'm working for my boss cuz i take my time... like buddy says, if a carpenter builds a deck on the weekend for some scratch is this a big crime? alot of folks can't afford prices that the certifieds give em... this cliquey arborist everybody does hack work but me my employees are my minions gets a bit much! Tommorow i'm doing some work for my landlords for a deal on rent... its all my equipement, but i have a pair of seceteer from work i might use... guess that makes me a scum and a thief!

 

[coydog]

If you really need the extra money that side work brings, then you're should have picked another company or profession that pays better.

This is exactly the attitude that makes it difficult for companies like yours to find production climber arborists who are worth their salt.

 

[TreeLady]

when i'm visiting people want a few things done and i do it for cash money... undeclared... i don't have insurance yet... that's my risk...

Actually, it's their risk. Your buddy, your inlaws, or your landloard... because its their property. I know it's unlikely for you to hurt someone or damage property, because you know what you are doing. But you must admit in this business, accidents happen even to the best. Its going to be their property insurance paying for it if something happens. I don't think there's a problem with what you are doing as long as you are upfront with your friend and family about the risk THEY are taking, because it's not yours.

 

[DDM]

Last Saturday morning i noticed a crew for a well known Large company doing a removal over a house.On my way back home later that day i noticed a large leader on the house. Since this company does not work on saturdays i know they were side jobbing. So Who payed for the house Damage? I'll assure you the big company wont As they probably werent aware it was going on.So Who pays for it? The homeowner? He will probably Sue the big company since it was there equipment on site.

 

[Xtra]

CoyDog,
I do pay some of the higher rates in my area.
I'm the main climber because good climbers just aren't available by me. An experienced climber/foreman could easily make $250 - 300/day with me. Most guys I interview are chop & drop hacks, who bomb client's lawns and don't care or want to learn about safety and the workings of a real business, but I don't want to hijack this subject with that problem.

Side work is just quick easy money and most guys feel it's their right to be able to do side work. I even offer my guys referral fees to discourage side work. And the side work I'm talking about are large jobs not just trim a branch or help out a relative.

My take is if the guy doesn't own the proper equipment (and insurance) then they shouldn't attempt the job. And if they do have the equipment then why not go into business for themselves and experience the rewarding life of a tree service company owner. :bang:

 

[Trignog]

Hey x-tra

You say 250-300 $ for a day. Do you mean with out taxes and wc witheld?
If so that makes sense.

Should I move down to Jersey?

 

[clearance]

CoyDog,
I do pay some of the higher rates in my area.
I'm the main climber because good climbers just aren't available by me. An experienced climber/foreman could easily make $250 - 300/day with me.

Could, could, do you pay climbers $250-300 a day? or is this just a could kind of deal? Regarding the 'chop and drop hacks" I could lower everything but I think it is wrong to run the bill up on a customer, to "save" a little piece of thier lawn, ripoff. I can strip and chunk a 100' + fir and throw all the blocks into a 4'x4' size piece of lawn. Just saying, you brought it up. Here is an idea for everyone, mind your own freaking business.

 

[jmack]

tree lady

Actually, it's their risk. Your buddy, your inlaws, or your landloard... because its their property. I know it's unlikely for you to hurt someone or damage property, because you know what you are doing. But you must admit in this business, accidents happen even to the best. Its going to be their property insurance paying for it if something happens. I don't think there's a problem with what you are doing as long as you are upfront with your friend and family about the risk THEY are taking, because it's not yours.

hey there tree lady, any way you would be surprised when homeowners approach crew because they dont want the bosses company they want the buzz rates

 

[jmack]

doubtful

Last Saturday morning i noticed a crew for a well known Large company doing a removal over a house.On my way back home later that day i noticed a large leader on the house. Since this company does not work on saturdays i know they were side jobbing. So Who payed for the house Damage? I'll assure you the big company wont As they probably werent aware it was going on.So Who pays for it? The homeowner? He will probably Sue the big company since it was there equipment on site.

no knowledge of his equipment there on the job i say it falls to the homeowner for hiring uninsured i guess they had some splaining to do

 

[jmack]

Could, could, do you pay climbers $250-300 a day? or is this just a could kind of deal? Regarding the 'chop and drop hacks" I could lower everything but I think it is wrong to run the bill up on a customer, to "save" a little piece of thier lawn, ripoff. I can strip and chunk a 100' + fir and throw all the blocks into a 4'x4' size piece of lawn. Just saying, you brought it up. Here is an idea for everyone, mind your own freaking business.

yeah but here we got landscape lights irrigation staues fountains everything breakable imaginable in the 4x4 area.

 

[TreeLady]

hey there tree lady, any way you would be surprised when homeowners approach crew because they dont want the bosses company they want the buzz rates

Not suprised at all...people actually come up to our guys to see if they will cut down trees for the firewood only. Those people know why they are getting the low price, so if their house gets smashed that's their problem.

 

[coydog]

Side work is just quick easy money and most guys feel it's their right to be able to do side work. I even offer my guys referral fees to discourage side work. And the side work I'm talking about are large jobs not just trim a branch or help out a relative.

My take is if the guy doesn't own the proper equipment (and insurance) then they shouldn't attempt the job. And if they do have the equipment then why not go into business for themselves and experience the rewarding life of a tree service company owner. :bang:

A company I used to work for had a zero tolerance for sidework policy, They also did landscaping which meant you could be fired for mowing lawns on the weekend. They were a good company to work for otherwise but one was not going to get rich working for them either. End result, evrybody did sidework, nobody talked about it, ... its a very frustating situation to be in for those that don't have the capital or the will to go out on their own(been there done that,) especially for those who have their own gear and are not stealing clients.
Now if somebody wants to go out on weekends and do big nasty technical removals over houses with no insurance, it very well may catch up with them My own personal common sense tells me to go for the easy low risk jobs like the side job I did today(on a sunday!) a very polite and easy light thinning of a couple young doug firs, a crabapple, a few cherry saplings and a rhodie. All the brush fit neatly into the back of my pickup and I hardly had to fire up the 020 but once or twice. About the worst damage I could have done to the clients property would be a broken plant,the neighbors didn't even notice I was there, I suppose I could have fallen out of the doug fir if I had some kind of wild unforseen seizure and cut my lifeline and flipline simultaneously, but that would have been my problem anyway. I'd be highly surprised if anyone who casually inspected the landscape would even notice that the trees had been pruned, much less label it as a hack job but according to some people I'm a crook and a hack just for doing side jobs. I don't worry about getting fired anymore because I've moved on but I will say this, I do sidejobs for one simple reason, to pay the bills. Now I applaud you if you are paying your climbers well, but my earlier point was aimed at the general attitude shared by many companies and individuals alike which you put so eloquently that perhaps I(meaning one who does side work) should find another company or profession. This tends to thin the pool of qualified professional arborists that aren't starting their own tree service because it creates a catch 22 situation, My boss doesn't pay me enough so I need to do sidejobs, I don't want to be illegal so I get a business license, etc. oh but I can't because if my boss finds out about I'll get fired, so why the hell am I involved in this thankless dead end profession? better start my own tree service or do something else, either way one less potential employee for you and/or more competition.

 

[jmack]

bad

Not suprised at all...people actually come up to our guys to see if they will cut down trees for the firewood only. Those people know why they are getting the low price, so if their house gets smashed that's their problem.

your people are that bad without your gear?

 

[Lumberjacked]

As far as I am concerned if you use the companies equipment without out the consent of the owner, its not the supervisors equipment, then you are stealing. I knew a kid once who works for one of the big guys that now has is very own spikes, ropes, saddle, etc. and guess what...he didn't buy them. He signed that "no competition" form but he still does work on the side. If you want to do side "small" side jobs get some landscapers insurance. I am almost positive that allows you to be as high and a 12+ foot ladder and fell and buck up smaller trees. Go do those little trees because I like others probably do not want to be bothered by them anyway. By no means though go and do large jobs without insurance b/c that is hack work and should not be tolerated. I also want to answer Clearence's question about not paying Uncle Sam, that is not even in the same category. TreeCo is still paying insurance/comp/wages/etc. as we all are, and as the owner it is up to me where I put that money. If it doesn't go in the company bank account then all you are doing is paying out for all your expenses but not putting anything back to cover your costs. If anything did happen and you had to use comp or insurance claims then you are still covered, it is by no means like an employee going out with his buddys and trying to make some extra $$$ on the weekends.

 

[clearance]

Well it certainly doesn't sound like you are a hack.

Let's see if crook fits: (I saw the word 'dishonest' was used in the definition of crook so I included it too though I must admit to some editing.)

crook n.

1. An implement or tool, such as a bishop's crosier or a shepherd's staff, with a bent or curved part.
2. A part that is curved or bent like a hook.
3. A curve or bend; a turn: a crook in the path.
4. One who makes a living by dishonest methods.


dishonest

adj 1: deceptive or fraudulent; disposed to cheat or defraud or deceive [syn: dishonorable] [ant: honest] 2: lacking honesty and oblivious to what is honorable [syn: unscrupulous] 3: lacking truthfulness; "a dishonest answer" 4: capable of being corrupted; "corruptible judges"; "dishonest politicians"; "a purchasable senator"; "a venal police officer"; "an off the books tree service".

Too funny, you will not answer my question/fact about not declaring all your income to Uncle Sam, even funnier how Lumberjacked says he is going to answer my question about this and then doesn't. Hipocrites, both of you , get lost, peddle you self rightous BS somewhere else.

 

[Nickrosis]

If your going to do side jobs, start a secondary business, take some pride in what and how you do it. Get the insurance, license if required, pay the taxes. Be ligit and you wont have to worry about whos watching, cause somebody always is. I.... Respect yourself and others and take pride in what you do, it pays a whole lot more than a couple bucks in your pocket ever will.

If you want to do side work and act like a business. Then take the plunge and pay the "hidden" costs . . . insurance, taxes, maintenance, rent, marketing, etc. Otherwise you're just a hack, even if you do good work.
And cause the rates to lower by underbidding.

Better watch out, Treeco ratted out Asplundh guys for doing side jobs with company equipment and others for working without permits, it is all here look in search, he is a RAT.

Treeco never did answer my question/fact that he accepts cash for tree work and does not declare it to Uncle Sam, I don't care but when you come off like the sun shines outta your ass you should be able to defend your holyness.

What the crap, clearance. You come up with the most outrageous stuff on a regular basis. If I knew you better, how would you like it if I started skewering you on your life? With a clear conscious, can you tell me that you've been a perfect person? Have you ever done something that you would do again but wouldn't recommend to someone? Sheesh, of course. You're saying TreeCo is guilty of a witch hunt then you turn around and start a witch hunt yourself! Hypocrite! It's sickening! I can't believe you do this in the same thread!

Actually, it's their risk. Your buddy, your inlaws, or your landloard... because its their property.

Exactly. There are cases of this. You screw up without insurance? Regardless of who's equipment was on the property, it's the homeowner's responsibility. Take a look at the cases where this has happened! You seriously think the insurance company for homeowner will pay for this? No! Do you think the insurance company for the company that owned the equipment will volunteer to pay for this? No! It's the homeowner's fault that they didn't hire someone with insurance. Again, look at the cases, even if they ask for a certificate of insurance, unless they get a copy of it, their homeowner's policy will not pay a dime. This gets really scary when a homeowner is responsible for a crewmembers injury or death. It's happened.