Spiking Palms

[Burnham]

Koa--I stand corrected.

And I was not thinking of mounted lights in the equation. Those would be a real hinderance for grippers! Bumps, lean, both can be worked with. Lean is not much different than on spurs; bumps and taper take a bit of time to adjust the gripper bands, but is doable...likely not inside your 2 minute window, though.

An antique method that comes to mind is the steeplejack technique. Some of the really basic tree climbing protestors have used it here in the PNW. Tom Dunlap, this is not even as modern as 8-track . Two or three adjustable or girth hitched loops are used. See ON ROPE. Way too slow for any of us, Koa for sure.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i hate palm dust, bugs, rodents, fiber in saws, 12"+needles, nasty stingy mildews etc. stuff that grows on the end of said needles, fiber in chipper wheel. sand in stump, harde to grind, non burning etc.....

So, i just been turning down what i can't ladder. Not spiking, jest another excuse, i have always been afraid of killing the tender center bud from blindly throwing a line over and SRT or DdRT-ing up. i have had trouble getting a line out after descending from the crown etc. too; getting it pinched hard through several crevices between fronds.

i have an etriers i made out of some 5/8" ol'ArboPlex, stretches about 7' from prescriptions in the "On Rope" , nylon highway 'bible'. With foot-step loops in it; i can get another 6' off the ladder by reaching waaaaaaaay up and choking sling to hold it(etriers). Preferabbly with lanyard dead manned (in round turn etc. position to hold an unconcious climber up), and at least 1 leg to front D's (lanyard under etriers, with etriers going between legs of lanyard to climber) is safer methinx.

Standing in the top step, i can bring the now unused portion of the etriers up; set another sling, hang what was the down end of the etriers, shift weight off the now lower sling. Keeping the lanyard under the etriers, and releasing the bottom sling everytime, allows me to be totally connected to dead manned lanyard choke all the time, never taking it off. At top, i might throw another lanyard into crown for sitting comfort angle of support. Choke last lowest sling around stem and connect. Cut standing in etriers, connected by 2 lanyards, and sling sometimes. Can be a lot of work, a straight palm strategy usually, not too bad for the first 6-12'feets off ladder spike free; to trim top or next strategy etc. So, i'll even pass on a lot of that, hard on my hip after wreck, don't like much about palms!

Some massive palms with a lot of heavy growth, i cut a stair path to top, tie in to crown, and walk around in a circle with saw trailing behind me cutting underneath rather than to the side or overhead.

Or something like that!
:alien:

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Burnham,



Using slings to girth hitch would be more like Edison cylinders...

I've seen a method of climbing palms where a loop of material is twisted into a figure eight. The toes go into the loops and the crossing part goes on the tree. By pulling on the sides/back of the trunk and pushing in and back with the foot sling, the climber can bounce up the trunk.

I can imagine a method to secure the climber to the trunk. It would probably use a steel core flip line wrapped around the trunk and clipped in. By pulling on the two legs of the flip line, it would choke the trunk. Then scootch the feet up and repeat. If the climber ever slipped, the choked lanyard would grab and not run down the trunk.

Do I get a trip to Hawaii? I might even be willing to split the ticket with you if you can wait until the snow is deep here in Minnesota.

I'll modify my "hack" statment here. Climbing live trees with spurs is hack work. It sounds like you're struggling with this issue and that's great!

Tom

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by rborist1
When I was on vacation in the Dominican Republic 2 years ago I saw the employees on the resort we were staying at climb up 40-50ft palms in mere seconds without the use of spurs. They were using a homemade type harness with an adjustable foot/leg loop. I took pics of the system, now its just a matter of finding where the pics are. When I find them I will post them.

Will I still qualify for the trip to Hawaii?

Yes you would, if you can demonstrate the technique to us. At the Polynesian Cultural Center here, climbers do the same thing for tourist demos. They get to the top, hold on with one hand and knock a couple of coconuts off the tree. I seriously doubt that system will keep you in place on the back side of a leaner. Some pronounced leaners are difficult to get around even with spurs. Like I said earlier, the problem is not only getting to the top, you need to be able to work with two hands free. My offer still stands. Demonstrate a spikeless system that you can set and climb a 60 ft. palm, even without mounted lights, but it must be a leaner, since most cocos have at least a slight lean, in 2 minutes or less, and I will buy you a R/T ticket to Hawaii. If you fail, you will need to reimburse me for the cost of the ticket.

Another thing about throwing a throwball into the head of a tall palm. Who or what will you hit if you miss??? I cannot imagine trying to get a throwball into the top of a 60 ft. palm at a resort hotel with dozens of people walking around all the time. A major reason why I dropped a major hotel contract was the frequency of which tourists would walk thru our roped off, warning signs posted work area with palm fronds and debris on the ground and other stuff dropping. I wanted more money for the risk and on the next contract increased the price of trimming cocos by $1.50 per palm, $2025.00 annual increase. Hotel wanted to keep prices same. I said aloha even though that contract, with the palms and other trees gave me 12 weeks of work a year and 20% of my income. They still call me to do high risk palm or branch removals and to R&R the lights on the trees. Landscape manager said they don't "trust" their current tree service provider to do these kinds of things.

Tom Dunlap,
You qualify too. Same thing, you must demostrate that it works and you can also work in place at the top of the palm with two hands free. Winter is fine. I hang the Pro Bowl banners from the coconut palms in Waikiki for the NFL the day after the Super Bowl. Take them down the day after the Pro Bowl. You can come then and help us using your system. Meet some Pro Bowlers and NFL cheerleaders.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Rocky,

Now that's the last straw! I sit up here trying to come up with a reasonable solution and all you can do is beat me up! Go back and read what I prefaced my post with, an acknowledgement that I'm out of my league. You keep going off on me, and I thought we were buddies. Sheesh!!!


Just having some fun Palms are way out of my league, I know. I would like to understand palm physiology better. Does spiking damage the palm like it does to woody plants? How do palms grow? Do they have a cambium like woodies?

Tom

 

[MasterBlaster]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
Rocky,

You keep going off on me, and I thought we were buddies. Sheesh!!!




Tom

Yeah, I kinda thought that too, once.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Maybe we outta give this guy a holler....

 

[Tom Dunlap]

http://www.caske2000.org/survival/coconutclimb.htm

Read down and see what he talks about crampons.

Tom

 

[rumination]

Did a little research: both heart rot and other palm diseases can be spread through the injuries left by spikes. I have been told that it is wise to disinfect spikes as well as cane knife before each job.

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by TREETX
Accepted or not, the fact remains that using spikes for pruning is hack work.

I agree with the above statement EXCEPT in the case of coconut palms which need pruning at least every 6 months to be safe. Most commercial accounts do them every 4 months. If using spikes is hack work on palms, then tell me the workable alternative. Remove the palm because it is too tall for a ladder or inaccessible by a bucket truck??? Don't prune at all and if the coconut falls and kills or injures someone, too bad, too bad??? Even my generous window of 2 minutes to get to the top is about 6 times longer than most climbers can get to the top using spikes. Multiply that time by the number of your ground crew and you have some very expensive labor standing around.

Tom,
The link you posted is the same method rborist1 mentioned. You will note that a person can have only one hand free. You must have two hands free to prune a palm.

 

[TREETX]

Originally posted by Koa Man
Many here are 60 ft. or taller. I charge $15 for cut and free drop, no hauling. $20 to $25 a tree if I have to cut, hold and toss the fronds and other debris to avoid understory damage.

I am sure you are quite the professional and are doing the best with what you have. From my prospective, it just seems odd. I guess you make your money by the numbers, the price for just 2 would be much higher???

You couldn't get me out of the house for that little $$ I think that is why the original post got ragged on. You sure could not get me to climb that high for that little eventhough I could probably comfortably footlock that in 30-40 seconds.

Sounds like killer cash.

1hr/5minutes per palm = 12 palms per hr

12 palms * $37.50= $450 per hour. Smokin!!

$450*8=$3600

That is hauled off, so $3600 a crew day??

96 palms a day!?!?

I know that ain't real, so describe a more realistic day.

Seriously, Iam curious.

BTW - My old ground man is there now on his way to Afghanastan. He said there are some monster trees.

You started off by defending Forrest, the biggest difference between you and him is that he only had 2 weeks experience.

 

[Koa Man]

TREETX,
My minimum charge is $150.00, unless it is something like the neighbor from across the street asks us to cut something small and since we are already set up, I'll bid a fair price.

Pruning coconut palms can be lucrative, and many climbers here can prune a maintained coconut palm in 5 minutes. That does not mean 12 an hour and 96 a day. 30 a day is considered a good output for a climber. It is very exhausting work and frequent rest breaks are a must. There is also time spent sharpening the knife.

A typical day for me for residential accounts with a good number of cocos this past month went like this. #1. 30 cocos, 1 climber, 2 groundmen in 7 hours. #2. 34 cocos, 1 climber, 3 groundmen in 6.5 hours. #3. 27 cocos, 6 ornamentals, 2 climbers, 2 groundmen in 8 hours.

I am the owner, I climb and work on the ground. My other climber also works on the ground if not climbing. No prima donna I only climb and don't do ground work type person works for me.

If you ever come to Hawaii or decide to go for my free trip contest, let me know. You can try a few palms...you may like it and move here.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

My addition to the linked method is to add a safety belt and lanyard. When the climber gets to the top they have footing and fall protection.

Sure, this is going to take longer. If you were to give your clients the information about disease exposure from spiking what do you think they would say?

The next time I see the dentist I'll tell the technician and the dentist to save money and not was their hands or sterilize the tools before they go to work. Should save me big money.

By setting yourself apart and doing proper work you have the opportunity to make more money and do the best work possible. The rest of the competition won't be bidding on the same specs as you.

Tom

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Yes, i due beleive that product differentation is an important marketing concept........

Or something like that!
:alien:

 

[Stumper]

Just a little FWIW info. Climbing treestands are nifty gadgets. Some are quite stable and as DadF mentioned some even have ways to compensate for diameter changes. However I have to say that I've never seen one that was truly non-wounding. when used for their intended purpose they come pretty close-they knock off or crush a few bark scales but on thick barked trunk that isn't very significant. When taken up into the smallwood the ones I've tried skin bark. Whether that would be significant on a Palm I don't really know. Designs differ but I used to have one that allowed hands free, secured working from the moment of arrival.(I played with working out of it a little but didn't find it practical-once I was up into the limbs secured free-climbing was easier. My palm experience involves numerous prunes from the ground , felling and bucking and stumpgrinding. I have never climbed one. If the Swedish"bicycle climbers aren't a viable option then I suppose that climbing treestands are out to.


Still I have this idea knocking around--- Take the basic foot climber or hand climber design, pad the front grab bars heavily. Replace the back bar or chain with Arborist rope (steel cored flipline should turn the trick). Secure a Grigri or other such device to the frame fairly far back along the side. Space some idlers along the side bar so that as trunk diameter drops you can flip back to a new idler post and take out the slack with the Grigri. Now with a pair of those and a chokered lanyard you should be able to climb quickly and securely once you become accustomed to them. At the top you can circle the tree on the foot climber-you probably would have to move the hand climber out of the way. Actually you can climb with only one but it means a lot of trunk hugging and is slower. You could just use a chokered loop for the hand climber portion. Frankly I don't know how that would effect climbing times. This isn't going to be as fast as gaffing up but If you are selling your 'lower wounding 'services it ought to be fast enough to make $$. Yes , I'm talking about palm climbing which I've never done so I may be full of frijoles BUT I have used the foot climbers (back when I had NEVER used gaffs) and think that the modified design I propose has potential.
:angel:

 

[Dan F]

Stumper, that was me that mentioned the climbing stands, not Dad. Not that it matters though, I'm told we look a LOT alike.

We who live north of the tropics, can sit here all day long and throw out hypotheticals, but there is no practical way to test what we are throwing out there. Heck, we don't even know much about the trees themselves, let alone how to climb them....

Ultimately, I'm afraid, it will be up to those who live in the tropics to test what we are mentioning. And unfortunately, they don't have the winter "downtime" like we do to test out these theories!

Maybe the Morton Arboretum (or another?) can get a palm trucked in and placed in a large greenhouse so's we all can try our hand without having to fly to Hawaii (though I wouldn't mind that trip too much!).


Dan

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by Tom Dunlap
My addition to the linked method is to add a safety belt and lanyard. When the climber gets to the top they have footing and fall protection.

Sure, this is going to take longer. If you were to give your clients the information about disease exposure from spiking what do you think they would say?

The next time I see the dentist I'll tell the technician and the dentist to save money and not was their hands or sterilize the tools before they go to work. Should save me big money.

By setting yourself apart and doing proper work you have the opportunity to make more money and do the best work possible. The rest of the competition won't be bidding on the same specs as you.

Tom

Believe me, it will not work. Footing WILL NOT be secure enough. I had a Samoan climber who could get to the top of a coconut tree barefoot faster than I could with spikes. Asked him about being able to trim the coco with straps around his feet and a belt. Impossible around the back side of even a slight leaner.

Of the thousands of different cocos I have done, only about 10 were removed because of disease. It is not much of a problem. Some places have lost a few, like 12 out of 80, but the percentage is not that high among the ones I do.

Hmm, maybe I should ask my dentist what kind of discount I can get.

Only ones who might pay extra is the resorts, and that would be only on trees newly planted. The old tall ones with lots of spike marks already would not make a difference. Remember, they did not want to pay $1.50 extra after I had been already been doing the palms for the same price for two years at a lower cost than the average commercial and residential account. When they hand you a 5 figure check every 4 months for coco maintenance they figure they are giving you big bucks.

I will revise by offer for the free trip. I will increase the time to 5 minutes on a tree with nothing mounted to it. This is setup, get to the top and be stable enough actually prune the coco with two hands free. Although in reality, 5 extra minutes is way too much time to add to a bill for spikeless climbing. I also think that the mechanical devices will lose its grip on a leaner and you will end up on the back side hanging on for dear life.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Well, with enough lean; my counter-intuitive senslelessness says to come up under the lean with dear stand type cam chin-barring climbing up?? ?

Then there are the palms with all the loose 'saddle boots' from years before like papery overwrap from years of previous trimming off fronds and leaving ends; oh especially ones with 12"needles for next climber left on the ends uselessly , meant to give stalk different texture and color, not worth a flip to grip climbing..... Especially thickly laiden sliding masses of them, that evewn with spurs are a devil to climb. You have to peirce all of that and cork to get meat to hold ya on spurs. Then a bunch comes off skewered onto the spur as you pull the spur out from tree, and kinda 'clogs' the next placement, after providing drag on leg from trying to tear free from the fibers still connecting spur and tree from 12" away sometimes.

i totally recommend a round turn on lanyard rather than just single wrap for the basket of support to climber; backed up with a sling to choke stalk and connect to climber (also a 'dead manned' grip strategy). At least 1 leg of main support to front D's for comforte; sometimes more for foot hold loop or tying inot head with lifeline for better and comfort support etc. IMLHO the extra shifting of stalk solidness through connecting to loose material, nil branching, slick mono-stalks etc. place it into the upper category for extra safety strategies.

The dead man chokes on the stalk can be held open by hand, and will still close on anything in path at loading..... A soft, wider 'SpanSet' type sling won't pinch digits so hard if that happens; er uhhhhhhh mmmmmmm Ummmmmmmm so i hear!


Orrrr something like that.....

:alien:

 

[Gord]

I don't have a solution that fits Koa's stringent requirements but I have an idea that may be an improvement on the basic SRT technique for a palm that must be climbed sans spikes.

-set throwline in top of palm, doesn't need to be in life supporting crotch/placement just kinda stable.

-clip biner on end of throwline and clip in climbing line at midpoint.

-pull up doubled climbing line to just below fronds, once up put on running bowline in climbing line and pull up to cinch line around trunk at top of palm.

-ascend SRT and work top standing in girth hitched slings.

to get running knot to cinch at highest possible point may have to pull at an angle with running knot like a scaffold or running anchor bend for some friction to keep loop away from trunk until the top.

just an idea, tell me why it won't work. i've never climbed palms.

 

[rbtree]

Gord,

Hey, that sounds like a great idea that could and should work. I could see it working if the trunk were smooth. And with a leaner, it would be easy to get the loop to cinch up.

It is also a technique that I think we could find useful in other situations. I thank you for the idea and will play with it!!