Spiking Palms

[Davidsinatree]

If you are gaffing palms every 4 to 6 mo I would think over a
period of time they would look like they belong in count-Dracula’s
or Frankenstein’s yard. I have gaffed some of trees in my yard,
some have heeled up good but some gaff wounds are still
oozing and have a rotting look going on. I did notice my brooks gaffs were really leaving large wounds, and I also kicked out a few times in them. So I started looking for another set of gaffs that I would feel more secure in and bought a set of kliens. Never kicked out in them and the wound they leave is small compared to the brooks. So what brand of gaffs are you trimming palms with? Do palms heal up fast?
Here in KC I have not noticed any tree co trimming without
gaffs, its the way I was taught and didn’t know any other way
until I found this site. Went to tree climbing comp in Springfield,
mo this spring and learned to foot lock & bodythrust.

David

 

[Koa Man]

Gord,
I think I understand what you are describing and if I understand correctly, it will be impossible to get it over palms with mounted lights, signs or attached cables. 15% of the palms at the resort I worked at have something mounted on the trunk. 40% of the palms around the pools. As stated in one of my earlier posts, who or what will you hit if you miss the toss with your throw ball. We are talking about palms in the 60-80 ft. range. Often times swaying in the trade winds. 10-20 mph trade winds is the normal type weather here. I am extremely happy when it is a windless day doing palms. I also think a lot of times the throw ball line will work its way down and get stuck in the sharp Vs of the base of the fronds.

David,
IMHO, I think Stringer-Brooks are the worst gaffs you can buy. Kleins are the best for palms. Stick real good and that is what I was using. I now use Bashlin aluminum climbers, more comfortable, half the weight, but the gaffs themselves are not as good as the Kleins. After constant spiking, the old coconut trunks get hard as a rock and the gaffs do not go in more than 1/4 inch even if you kick it real hard. If you just stepped on it the gaff will slide. On a trunk that has hardly been spiked, gaffs will go in 1/2 inch just stepping on it.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

REPEAT

Can one of the tropical climbers explain the physiology of palms to me? Do they have a cambium like woodies? What damage do spikes do to the physiology?

Spiking thick barked trees isn't physically damaging but it is unsightly. Can the same be said for palms?

Tom

 

[Koa Man]

A coconut palm does not have a secondary xylem layer so technically cannot be classified as a woody tree. Areas of the trunk that have been spiked become calloused and very hard, like a rock. When climbing you would spike an area that has not been spiked before. Eventually on an old palm, the bottom section has been spiked all over the place and the whole section is rock hard. Often times you need to set your gaff into an old hole to climb up, otherwise your gaffs will not stick. The higher you climb the easier it gets to spike because it has not been spiked as much. No sap comes out of any spike marks and the whole trunk is made up of densely packed fibers.

 

[Joe]

Tom: Harris, Clark, and Matheny(4th ed.) explain enough about palm physiology and palm pruning to satisfy me. I can keep a low profile and turn the other cheek when the tropical guys talk about spiking them. Decay,
(according to the 4th ed.) in coconut palms in Hawaii is practically non-existent. They (all Palms I think)
are considered arborescent monocots which lack secondary xylem and do not produce annual rings of wood. Otherwise, they're weird and aren't really trees as we know trees.

Joe

 

[Joe]

O.K., so, I wasn't satisfied by the explanation in the 4th ed. For the sake of having a reference:

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/webb/BOT410/MonoSec/secondarygrowthmonocots-1.htm

Joe

 

[Stumper]

As Joe and Koa have stated-no bark. no cambium. no xylem. I am intrigued to learn of a hardening response in coconut palms. My limited palm experience has been with Washingtonias, Queens, Dates and Cabbages. I didn't note any decay from gaff wounds in the Arizona palms but I've heard reports of gaff related decay in more humid climes.

Perhaps gaffing Coonut palms is a non-issue?

 

[Reed]

Appropriately, palms are a grass not a tree.

 

[Stumper]

Joe posted his link while I was typing. I now know much more than I understand. . Thanks Joe!

 

[Striker]

So then, if palms are not trees then wether or not to spike them is a moot point. Not a tree, no problem.

 

[Stumper]

They are trees. Check the reference works. They are very different from other trees however. My previous post was erroneous. Saying "no xylem" is incorrect but the xylem is arranged very differently in palms.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Go through the link that JOe posted. You'll see that monocots are arranged differently than dicots. From what I gathered, the xylem bundles are not at the out surface like dicots. That MIGHT make them less vulnerable to spike damage.

I wrote to the Prof. who wrote the page. If he responds, I'll put up whatever he says.

Tom

PS Joe, you get an A on your homework

 

[Reed]

I just think this discussion is good for opening a box of assumptions.

Immune response on a molecular scale is not innate, it's accumulated. Memory more or less. That's why we give innoculations of specific pathogens to trigger resistance mechanisms for immunity. That's why trophy buck breeders scarify antler stems in young deer, or the pot grower kicks and yells at his plants. It's exercise in simple terms using stress response to strengthen. Each cold or bout with a flu bug leaves us completely resistant to that specific variety forever - for example.

Other than diseases prevelant in the Carribe and the lower 40's, Hawaii's been gifted with isolation from particularly destructive fungal and bacterial events, resistant so far to what most planted palms succumb to in resort areas of other tropical locations. Wish same could be said about other flora and fauna but as of yet, spiking challenging growth has few alternatives - and evidence abounds around the Islands that so far shows little chronic effect detrimental to each tree's vigor.

I think it's our preconceptions that wounds hurt, keeping us overly protective of ammending any further stress factors - yet we can only sit innocently by as Momma nature constantly stresses our trees but those trees endlessly heal themselves fom fractures, breaks, and diseases. The bubble boy (of which I was once one) who is released from his protective environment suddenly finds himself indefensive of threats we manage well every minute of every day - the native tribes of America dying en mass from germs Europeans only sniffle from.

I thank also, that by studying and gaining acute understanding of disease on a micro-level we've become over-protective of pathogen exposures, helpless in the face of epidemics and doing everything we believe is fundamental in saving potential hosts from spreading destruction - most of the good minds in disease research hobbled by chemical approaches to fight pathogens. Why not study the requirements of the disease and conditions instigating it instead of when it's too late - it's become a wildfire.

Foremostly, the palms need never to have dead fronds removed, it's our idea of beauty that they suffer from but we're way removed from that - we want everything marching and saluting to our whims. How German we are. With that we're going to trim, feed, move, and regiment everything to our standards and the only feasable way to trim those suckers that grow thin and spindly and way the hell up there with countless barriers on the ground...is to spike 'em. Or teach our big toe to grip like a thumb - the way we used to climb.

Just my two cents.

 

[Toddppm]

One of my guys from ElSalvador knows how to use a length of rope with loops pre-tied and alternates them as he goes up , pulls out the previous one as it's tied with a kind of slip knot. Don't see why you couldn't use something like this, then a regular lanyard so you could use both hands up top then come down on a false crotch or figure 8????
I'm sure he'd take a free trip to Hawaii

 

[Greg]

The biggest problem with trimming palms is that no one wants to pay decent money to get them done. I will not go out and give a quote of trimming palms, I ask questions over the phone and give a high price ($50-75 per) and typicallly don't get the work (don't want it). I do trim them when they are part of a larger project or are for someone that is important to my business.

Keep coming up with these good ideas, but to really crack the palm nut the solution must enable the climber to trim them quickly. 10 minutes per palm is way at the high end for the $$ people are willing to pay in high palm areas. Too many pick up truck guys "specialize" in palms and do them for $10 per.
Greg

 

[Stumper]

I won't climb anything for $10! Well, okay, I'll go up steps to trim something for $10 but I won't climb a ladder let alone a tree for that.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

i've pondered whether they need trimmed or not; i see it as more than a beauty deal; the excessive dead rotting stuff harbours fungus, tons of insects(ants, roaches, wasps etc.) fire hazard etc. making untrimmed palms have different problems to communal living with people IMLHO; including bee allergic people going nuts when 10 or so 80# 'flower pods' open per plant at once 15' from their door.

i've seen ants making homes in old spur holes.

2.

 

[Koa Man]

Originally posted by Toddppm
One of my guys from ElSalvador knows how to use a length of rope with loops pre-tied and alternates them as he goes up , pulls out the previous one as it's tied with a kind of slip knot. Don't see why you couldn't use something like this, then a regular lanyard so you could use both hands up top then come down on a false crotch or figure 8????
I'm sure he'd take a free trip to Hawaii

He sure does. Needs to get to top of a 60 ft. coco in 5 min. or less (I generously increased time from the original 2 min.) and show that he is stable enough to actually work at the top with 2 hands free. He needs to be able to completely circle the palm. Can't prune it properly only from one side. I REALLY want someone to take me up on this challenge. Remember, you will need to reimburse me the airfare if you fail. I will even allow you a full day of practice before you make your attempt. In all honesty, I doubt anyone can do it in 5 minutes. As Greg said, 10 minutes is getting on the high end over here.

Stumper,
A lot of guys here will jump at the chance to trim cocos for $10 IF they did not need to haul away the debris. If you hired a climber here for $10 a coco, no hauling, you will probably end up paying him $50-60 an hour for an 8 hour day. Even going at a normal pace they would do 30 cocos a day. Pay by the tree and you will be amazed how fast they move.

 

[mquinn]

oakwilt - good points both about assumptions and pre-stressers vs. bubbles.

do you still check your sailing address or am i just sending stuff out to the cyber fishies?

 

[Reed]

It's active as long as I am. Maybe even longer.

Did you see the war's about Christians against Muslims? No wonder no one cares about dead G.I.'s. Are Mormons christians? (I really don't know)