Is it coming?
Stihl dealers-461
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Stihldoc
Analog old guy in a digital world
Maybe- I was at the Virginia Stihl dealers' meeting this weekend and spoke to several technical luminaries from Stihl and their VP Peter Burton. The long and short of the news is that any model saw other than the 280 and 441 will be "gone in 2-3 years". Whoa. Stihl is having NO TROUBLE meeting the 2007 emissions regulations, but the 2009 specs are supposed to be brutal. We will be seeing shortly a MS280 that has soleniods to meter fuel flow 33 times a second so the saw performs optimally at all loads and RPMs. The stratified-charge MS441 is the face of mid-size and large saws to come. They won't say if a 461 or 661 or whatever is on the horizon. Remember the deafening silence 4 years ago prior to the roll-out of the 4-mix motors?? We dealers were wondering what- if anything- Stihl was doing about the looming new emissions regulations. Now we know- 4-mix is an excellent platform for trimmers, pole pruners, and blowers. I don't think we'll see it as a technology that coming saws will be based on- it just doesn't have the HP at high RPM that saw users expect. 4-Mix saws exist- I've seen the videos of European testing. The buzz on them is -if nothing else- they just don't run the way anyone expects a saw to run. Now for a reality check- I'm a dealer and a home firewood cutter- not a professional arborist or logger. No one here seems to like the "heavier, bulkier" MS441. Why did Stihl build this saw? The federal government mandated lower emissions and that means new technology. Cars and trucks would still have points and Quadrajet carburetors if not for the milage and emissions regulations. I don't want to return to the stone age, and neither do you. I'm not defending the governments mandates, but saw companies have a simple choice- comply or perish. So let's all have a good cry about saws getting a little bulkier, but we still have chainsaws, not 2-man crosscut saws. The geniuses who think they run our country have spoken. Now any saw company that wants to be in the market must come up with technology to met the new requirements. Failure to comply has a simple outcome- failure to participate. That doesn't serve anyone's needs- lets understand that the saw companies are investing hundreds of millions on research and development. Not because they want to, but because they have to. The stone age is for nostalgia buffs, I don't want to live there.
troutfisher
Addicted to ArboristSite
I hope that new gizmo uses the same mount as a carb.
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So the 361 will get axed.............hmmmmmmmmm!
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XJWoody
ArboristSite Guru
Stihldoc, thanks for the info.
No one likes the weight gains on the new generation saws from Husky and Stihl. I do think it would be less talked about if the 441 had the slightly more HP than the current 460, which should be doable.
I am going to hold off on the 441 until I see what Stihl is going to do in the next few years. I can only hope they will come out with a 461 based on the same saw and weighing the same.
No one likes the weight gains on the new generation saws from Husky and Stihl. I do think it would be less talked about if the 441 had the slightly more HP than the current 460, which should be doable.
I am going to hold off on the 441 until I see what Stihl is going to do in the next few years. I can only hope they will come out with a 461 based on the same saw and weighing the same.
They're coming, they're coming!
SinglerM
ArboristSite Operative
Good post.
Your right about not wanting to live in the stone age. But I'm glad I bought the saws I have. I'll probably pick up a 460 soon, as well.
As you point out, in the not too distant future, we'll all have to choose from among whatever new technology is offered to the consumer.
In a way it's too bad (in regards to chainsaws, anyway) If the make them more efficient in terms of emmissions, eventually you have to give something up, weight, size, power....whatever it may be. At that point, We may wish for the "old" saws back (440,460,660).
Another example might be hybrid-electric cars. No doubt they work, in terms of efficiency. But they are not practical at all if you need more than just fuel savings. Towing power for example. I doubt we'll ever see commercial trucking go the way of a hybrid electric, but who knows?
New technology is great, if the motivation to develop it is to make a better product. In the case of chainsaws, it's only to reduce emmissions, not increase performance. It'll be cool to see what new saws are coming. I hope manufacturers can still accumulate "EPA points", and make some "real" saws.
I liked your post.
Take care,
Mitch
Your right about not wanting to live in the stone age. But I'm glad I bought the saws I have. I'll probably pick up a 460 soon, as well.
As you point out, in the not too distant future, we'll all have to choose from among whatever new technology is offered to the consumer.
In a way it's too bad (in regards to chainsaws, anyway) If the make them more efficient in terms of emmissions, eventually you have to give something up, weight, size, power....whatever it may be. At that point, We may wish for the "old" saws back (440,460,660).
Another example might be hybrid-electric cars. No doubt they work, in terms of efficiency. But they are not practical at all if you need more than just fuel savings. Towing power for example. I doubt we'll ever see commercial trucking go the way of a hybrid electric, but who knows?
New technology is great, if the motivation to develop it is to make a better product. In the case of chainsaws, it's only to reduce emmissions, not increase performance. It'll be cool to see what new saws are coming. I hope manufacturers can still accumulate "EPA points", and make some "real" saws.
I liked your post.
Take care,
Mitch
Stihldoc
Analog old guy in a digital world
You're absolutely right- no one likes the heavier weight of the 441 vs. the 440. Higher HP variants are certain to come- how could they not. Stratified charging is COOL TECHNOLOGY. It is not original or unique to Stihl, but they sure made it work well. All the extra plumbing adds some weight- its a larger overall cyliner casting than is found on non-strato motors. The extra intake runners, and the 2-barrel carburetor add some weight. So do the larger flywheel and the extra cooling fins that are needed to dissipate the extra engine heat that is inherent in leaner running motors. We will soon see a 1-barrel carburetor that replaces the bulkier 2-barrel carb. This is more cool innovation. Simpler, lighter, and (hopefully) as or more dependable. Strato saws are in their infancy- we'll see lots of neat innovations from the saw manufacturers who want to stay in the market. If you buy an MS441, enjoy riding the crest of the next big wave. Lots of improvements coming- some will yield power increases, some will save weight, and others may do both. I still use my dependable 028WB I bought new in 1981 and have cut 100+ cords with, but I'll buy a MS280 solenid saw as soon as they become available. I'll use it, critique it, learn its quirks, and most importantly to my customers- understand the technology.
livewire
Addicted to ArboristSite
Great posts Stihldoc
Very informative. No more 361 (in such a short time frame) blows me away. Thanks for the info!
Very informative. No more 361 (in such a short time frame) blows me away. Thanks for the info!
SinglerM
ArboristSite Operative
Is the 441 already compliant?
I hadn't considered this until now. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I understand it there are two compliance period for manufacturers. one in 2007 (not sure which month) and another coming sometime in 2009.
Is the 441 compliant with the 2009 standard? If not, is it the new platform that any new changes will eventually be made from? Does anyone know what the standards are? If the 441 is already compliant with the 2009 standard (or close), that'd be great. I don't mind the small weight gain over the 440, it's minor, really. Are the upcoming 46(?) and 66(?) going to be bigger versions of the 441, or will ther be other changes?
Cool stuff to think about.
Take care,
Mitch
I hadn't considered this until now. Correct me if I'm wrong, as I understand it there are two compliance period for manufacturers. one in 2007 (not sure which month) and another coming sometime in 2009.
Is the 441 compliant with the 2009 standard? If not, is it the new platform that any new changes will eventually be made from? Does anyone know what the standards are? If the 441 is already compliant with the 2009 standard (or close), that'd be great. I don't mind the small weight gain over the 440, it's minor, really. Are the upcoming 46(?) and 66(?) going to be bigger versions of the 441, or will ther be other changes?
Cool stuff to think about.
Take care,
Mitch
B_Turner
Addicted to ArboristSite
I personally think the trend toward less stinky, smoother motors is going to good in the long run even if they weigh a little more in the middle term.
But then I got a 7900 and man I'll hate to see it go.
But then I got a 7900 and man I'll hate to see it go.
Timberhauler
Addicted to ArboristSite
I've been racing dirt bikes off-road for about 15 years,and the last five years I've done it semi-professionally.This is sort of off the subject,but here goes.The two strokes are all but gone in the two wheeled world.I still have one,I'm running a KTM this year,but I've heard that there is no 2 strokes at all from Honda this year,and the others are soon to follow suit.I will be switching to a four stroke myself next year,not really by choice,but because I got a sweet sponsorship deal.The first four strokes were dogs,but they are getting lighter,faster and more responsive.They were hard to start,especially when hot at first,but they are slowly getting that bug squashed..I have been loaned a four stroke to practice on and get used to this year,and it's not so bad,it even takes less effort to keep it at speed,and due to a heavier rotating mass,it turns with less effort....Here is the point to all of this...Are we eventually gonna see the two stroke engine disappear from the wood cuttin' world now?My question all along for the two wheelers has been,Instead of switching to a whole other engine that takes nearly twice the displacement to make the same power,why not put the same effort in cleaning up the two stroke??It would be very easy to obtain the extra HP that would be lost in emission control..Yes I know,this is mostly un-related,but it is basically the same principal.
spike60
Addicted to ArboristSite
Great essay by Stihldoc!
This is the direction saws are going in everybody, whether we like it or not. Husky is also commited to the X-torque strato-charged motors. As was mentioned, this technology is still fairly new, and it would be safe to assume that improvements in user friendliness will be coming. Both in weight and running characteristics. All in all, it won't be as bad as some guys are making it out to be. It ain't the end of the world.
Look at it this way; what better excuse for AS members to buy a few more saws? Gotta grab the last of the pure 2-cycles while we still can!
Another thought that I've had is that while we object to the added weight of the 441 and 575, it might be even more irritating when that same additional mass is added to smaller saws such as the 346, 260, and 361. Add a pound or more to one of those? Look at how everyone feels about the 455 rancher.
Like Stihldoc, outside of the store I just cut 4 to 5 cords of firewood for myself each year, and I have enough saws to cut 50 times the wood I'll use for the rest of my life. But you real pros, who run saws all day, will have to live with this new technology at some point.
This is the direction saws are going in everybody, whether we like it or not. Husky is also commited to the X-torque strato-charged motors. As was mentioned, this technology is still fairly new, and it would be safe to assume that improvements in user friendliness will be coming. Both in weight and running characteristics. All in all, it won't be as bad as some guys are making it out to be. It ain't the end of the world.
Look at it this way; what better excuse for AS members to buy a few more saws? Gotta grab the last of the pure 2-cycles while we still can!
Another thought that I've had is that while we object to the added weight of the 441 and 575, it might be even more irritating when that same additional mass is added to smaller saws such as the 346, 260, and 361. Add a pound or more to one of those? Look at how everyone feels about the 455 rancher.
Like Stihldoc, outside of the store I just cut 4 to 5 cords of firewood for myself each year, and I have enough saws to cut 50 times the wood I'll use for the rest of my life. But you real pros, who run saws all day, will have to live with this new technology at some point.
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Ok...........so we have 2 examples of what is to come:
The Stihl 441.........a little heavy, but good, with qualities in the right direction!
The Husky 575.........a little heavy also but some reliability issues!
This may not turn out so bad.............and like what has been said before...........like it or not this is what is coming!!!
I think things will be refined as time goes on!!!
The Stihl 441.........a little heavy, but good, with qualities in the right direction!
The Husky 575.........a little heavy also but some reliability issues!
This may not turn out so bad.............and like what has been said before...........like it or not this is what is coming!!!
I think things will be refined as time goes on!!!
Lakeside53
Stihl Wrenching
My understandng is that the 441 is good though 2009, but epa credits (from the zillions of 4 mix weedeaters and blowers that have exceeded the 2007 spec for a couple of years) may push it way out.
I did publish the 2007 gm/KWhr specs in a 441 thread a while back. Can't remember where, but I'll look again,
The big saws 660/880) will be last to change. The sales are low (relative) and they can exist under the epa credits for a long time...
Yes, the silence is deafening right now....
litefoot
Addicted to ArboristSite
I sometimes wonder what the marketing brains at Stihl and Husky are thinking. Many look at the 575 and 441 as disappointments because they're more "porky" than their predecessors...but that's us...Aboristsite.com readers. Are the saw marketing guys thinking that most folks are brand loyal enough that they don't give a rip about an extra 1/2 pound? Besides the extra weight can be blamed on the EPA, not Stihl or Husky. So they put out these saws for a few years so they can meet the EPA reqirements. We're disappointed because they're heavier. We gripe while they're working on better technology back in Germany and Sweden. They come out with some truly great saws in a couple of years and look like heros because they were "listening to what we wanted". I dunno. Seems plausible to me.
extrication
New Member
Question for StihlDoc
StihlDoc, do you have info regarding the issue of the MS441 failing to idle when hot and in an altered atmosphere (light smoke). We have three MS441's that are each experiencing the same stalling problem. Stihl reports they are working on the problem. We believe the problem is an air intake/carb issue but Stihl thinks it may be a fuel issue caused by overheating due to the lack of cooling air to the back of the saw. I'd like to drill holes in the air filter cap to see the results but we're trying to be mindful of the warranty. Your insights regarding this issue are appreciated.
Sorry for the bump of a older thread, but this new guy's search for info was not successful. By the way, great forum!!! This is the internet at its best!!
StihlDoc, do you have info regarding the issue of the MS441 failing to idle when hot and in an altered atmosphere (light smoke). We have three MS441's that are each experiencing the same stalling problem. Stihl reports they are working on the problem. We believe the problem is an air intake/carb issue but Stihl thinks it may be a fuel issue caused by overheating due to the lack of cooling air to the back of the saw. I'd like to drill holes in the air filter cap to see the results but we're trying to be mindful of the warranty. Your insights regarding this issue are appreciated.
Sorry for the bump of a older thread, but this new guy's search for info was not successful. By the way, great forum!!! This is the internet at its best!!
SawTroll
Information Collector
Good posts here - it looks like Stihl is at least partly using the 280 as a test-bed, while Husky is using the 575xp.......
chainsawaddict
ArboristSite Guru
What I take from this is BUY A SAW NOW!!
This is a lot like the two stroke ATV/Motorcycle world. Give them time and the will soon out perfrom the old. Its sad to see it go because the rush i get from a screaming two stroke hitting the powerband is incredible.
So like I said, buy a couple saws now to weather the storm and soon enough competition will force improvements and saws will recover.
This is a lot like the two stroke ATV/Motorcycle world. Give them time and the will soon out perfrom the old. Its sad to see it go because the rush i get from a screaming two stroke hitting the powerband is incredible.
So like I said, buy a couple saws now to weather the storm and soon enough competition will force improvements and saws will recover.
