Stihl, now made in Brazil

[sliceoflife]

With all due respect, no, you can't make high-quality from ordinary scrap. Their are too many contaminants and too much variability to do so.

Removing impurities and refining salvaged metal is not particularly difficult. Whether the plants do it or not, its entirely possible. It's a simple component of the process that doesnt rely on any particularly innovative processes. Pakistan/etc doesnt do it, because they can make a knife-looking prop for five cents by skipping the steps and sell it on late night infomercials at a 50000% profit.


Plastic recycling is more complicated as the material properties change by the recycling process itself.

 

[sliceoflife]

Japan isn't known for having great quality steel either.

It's actually considered by many to make the best tool steels. Certainly the best artisan/handmade steel tools. They have imported other steels, such as german and swedish during certain eras where their processes had shortcomings, but currently; they're probably responsible for 50% or more of the top tier modern steels.

 

[GenXer]

Japan isn't known for having great quality steel either.

They make some of the best steel. And have been for hundreds of years. Just look at the old swords.

 

[bwalker]

They make some of the best steel. And have been for hundreds of years. Just look at the old swords.

Old swords are full of impurities. What it takes to make a steel good for cutlery and the same for one to make high strength steel automotive unibodies and fender stampings are two different things.

 

[bwalker]

It's actually considered by many to make the best tool steels. Certainly the best artisan/handmade steel tools. They have imported other steels, such as german and swedish during certain eras where their processes had shortcomings, but currently; they're probably responsible for 50% or more of the top tier modern steels.

Your talking about cutlery. See my comment below.

 

[bwalker]

Removing impurities and refining salvaged metal is not particularly difficult. Whether the plants do it or not, its entirely possible. It's a simple component of the process that doesnt rely on any particularly innovative processes. Pakistan/etc doesnt do it, because they can make a knife-looking prop for five cents by skipping the steps and sell it on late night infomercials at a 50000% profit.


Plastic recycling is more complicated as the material properties change by the recycling process itself.

It's more difficult than you think.
A good analogy would be if you took a chuck roast and a rib roast ground them up and then tried to seperate the resulting burger into ground chuck and ground rib.
I should also add that I was a metallurgical supervisor for a Cleveland Cliffs at one time, which is one of the biggest US steel companies and the largest miner of Iron ore in the US.
I should also note that I am speaking in a general sense. China, Japan, Korea, etc all have the ability to produce high quality steels. It's just they don't produce alot of it and are not industry leaders in its production. A lot of this is tied to the iron ore used to make the steel. In Asia most of the ore comes from western Australia and is the form of fairest shipped ore and fines. That is another way of saying they dig it out of the ground and ship it with out further processing. The US stopped doing this in the 60's and as you can imagine unprocessed ore is full of impurities that can't easily be removed. One of the biggest trouble makers in this regard is phosphorus. Phosphorus is why they steel used to make the titanic failed.

 

[sliceoflife]

Most impurities are burnt off or removed by utilizing disparate physical or chemical (in solution)properties. Id assume US doesnt like dealing with phosphorus due to epa restrictions... but I'd have to look into it. Just as likely, we just cant do it profitably compared to the Asian markets. Again... it's an easy process that has existed for centuries... in some part for millennia. It's only Not done when unnecessary to save on cost. Your analogy to meat fails because it ignores the exact reason metals are so workable and recyclable. That's ignoring exactly the point. Recycling metal is not only often... it is USUALLY cheaper than refining virgin metals from ore.... that's why metal recycling is actually profitable... unlike plastics.


Good steel for cutlery and for structural purposes are not different sciences. It's the same science with different levels of various properties... but in general these are controlled through the same techniques and processes. A producer of structural steel could readily switch to making cutlery steel and vice versa if the customer simply gave them the requirements they needed to meet. Yes you dont want the same steel for a bolt as for a razor, but the same producer can absolutely make both steels.


I think we're arguing different points here. I'm not arguing that bad steel doesn't come out of any particular region, when they decide to make bad steel. I'm pointing out that these regions are capable of and often DO make high quality steel... and it's usually made from recycled material at least in part... with no associated loss in quality... because the very nature of metals makes them infinitely recyclable. The exception I'll call out is Pakistan, because they have made creating the CHEAPEST possible recycled steel a huge industry for them... to the point where I wouldn't trust any steel out of Pakistan for ANY purpose. And not because they Can't make good recycled steel... they simply dont.

 

[bwalker]

Most impurities are burnt off or removed by utilizing disparate physical or chemical (in solution)properties. Id assume US doesnt like dealing with phosphorus due to epa restrictions... but I'd have to look into it. Just as likely, we just cant do it profitably compared to the Asian markets. Again... it's an easy process that has existed for centuries... in some part for millennia. It's only Not done when unnecessary to save on cost. Your analogy to meat fails because it ignores the exact reason metals are so workable and recyclable. That's ignoring exactly the point. Recycling metal is not only often... it is USUALLY cheaper than refining virgin metals from ore.... that's why metal recycling is actually profitable... unlike plastics.


Good steel for cutlery and for structural purposes are not different sciences. It's the same science with different levels of various properties... but in general these are controlled through the same techniques and processes. A producer of structural steel could readily switch to making cutlery steel and vice versa if the customer simply gave them the requirements they needed to meet. Yes you dont want the same steel for a bolt as for a razor, but the same producer can absolutely make both steels.


I think we're arguing different points here. I'm not arguing that bad steel doesn't come out of any particular region, when they decide to make bad steel. I'm pointing out that these regions are capable of and often DO make high quality steel... and it's usually made from recycled material at least in part... with no associated loss in quality... because the very nature of metals makes them infinitely recyclable. The exception I'll call out is Pakistan, because they have made creating the CHEAPEST possible recycled steel a huge industry for them... to the point where I wouldn't trust any steel out of Pakistan for ANY purpose. And not because they Can't make good recycled steel... they simply dont.

Ok, for the 5th time.. it's not possible to make modern high strength steels as used in the automotive and aerospace industries by melting scrap in a EAF.
My analogy to meat is exactly right. Combing scrap of god knows what alloy and contaminated by all sorts of things into an EAF and your results are not good.
And region does matter via their proximity to high quality ore. How that ore is then process also matters.

 

[sliceoflife]

Ok, for the 5th time.. it's not possible to make modern high strength steels as used in the automotive and aerospace industries by melting scrap in a EAF.
My analogy to meat is exactly right. Combing scrap of god knows what alloy and contaminated by all sorts of things into an EAF and your results are not good.
And region does matter via their proximity to high quality ore. How that ore is then process also matters.

There are refinement steps and processes that you are pretending are skipped in steel recycling, yet utilized in raw ore processing. This is incorrect. As mentioned, the secondary elements can be measured, adjusted and even removed if desired. Yes you can simply melt and cast recycled steel and iron and what you get you get... but that's not how it's done if you have any interest in controlling your end product. Because you think that's how it's done does not make it so.

 

[WI_Hedgehog]

15 years ago (maybe 20 by now, my memory is fading after all these years) a U.S. steel mill my company dealt with was ordered to put in a woman's restroom. The mill argued they have no female plant employees (not meaning in the office where they did have a female restroom) and the plant restroom would remain unused. They were ordered to put one in or they would be fined until they did.

One year later the mill had spent thousands in Engineering expenses trying to meet the myriad of regulations covering everything required to repurpose space for a new restroom, and was still trying to get the permits approved. Meanwhile in China the Chinese built a steel mill, got it up and running and was now a competitor to the U.S. plant. A year later (2 years in) the U.S. plant still didn't have permits, was facing potential fines for not having the restroom, and due to mining restrictions in the U.S., the U.S. economy, and tighter restrictions on manufacturing the U.S. mill shut down and everyone lost their jobs. We lost a U.S. domestic mill and had to pay higher prices for domestic steel.

---
Some people may want to take this a political route but that's not my intention. This isn't about politics, it's about a hidden cost related to why quality products cost "so much" domestically whereas off-shore is so "affordable."

 

[bwalker]

There are refinement steps and processes that you are pretending are skipped in steel recycling, yet utilized in raw ore processing. This is incorrect. As mentioned, the secondary elements can be measured, adjusted and even removed if desired. Yes you can simply melt and cast recycled steel and iron and what you get you get... but that's not how it's done if you have any interest in controlling your end product. Because you think that's how it's done does not make it so.

I am aware of these methods, but never the less what I said is correct. Methods and technology has gotten better in regards to EAF's but it's still not as good as making steel from ore.

 

[bwalker]

15 years ago (maybe 20 by now, my memory is fading after all these years) a U.S. steel mill my company dealt with was ordered to put in a woman's restroom. The mill argued they have no female plant employees (not meaning in the office where they did have a female restroom) and the plant restroom would remain unused. They were ordered to put one in or they would be fined until they did.

One year later the mill had spent thousands in Engineering expenses trying to meet the myriad of regulations covering everything required to repurpose space for a new restroom, and was still trying to get the permits approved. Meanwhile in China the Chinese built a steel mill, got it up and running and was now a competitor to the U.S. plant. A year later (2 years in) the U.S. plant still didn't have permits, was facing potential fines for not having the restroom, and due to mining restrictions in the U.S., the U.S. economy, and tighter restrictions on manufacturing the U.S. mill shut down and everyone lost their jobs. We lost a U.S. domestic mill and had to pay higher prices for domestic steel.

---
Some people may want to take this a political route but that's not my intention. This isn't about politics, it's about a hidden cost related to why quality products cost "so much" domestically whereas off-shore is so "affordable."

I don't believe this is even close to be true. Capital expenditures in the steel industry is measured in the hundreds of millions. Even if it would cost 100k to throw in a bathroom it would be a drop in the bucket.
That and Iron ore and met coal mining in the US isn't capacity restrained. There hasn't been the need to build a new iron ore mine in the US since the early 80's.

 

[leaf]

038s were made in Brazil. Stihl is a world wide company with many overseas plants.

I may just be lucky. I have a Stihl that was an original 038 AV that has the words "Made in West Germany" on the "nameplate," just below "STIHL," on the outside of the flywheel side cover. I bought it new I think in the mid 1980s (have had it since, put an after market slightly bigger bore cylinder / piston in it a few years ago -- replacement chains / bar, too obviously -- but all the rest is original. And it is a LOT that is good in a saw: strong, torque-y, good rim sprocket chain fit and alignment, good chain speed, reliable (starting, oiling, etc. etc.). Runs out of fuel just when you need a break... Not super light. Don't take it up a tree. True. But, for example, it really likes cutting up anything you can stand over into 16s.

 

[Vintage Engine Repairs]

They make some of the best steel. And have been for hundreds of years. Just look at the old swords.

Tamahaganie, which I presume you are referring to is not a good steel relative to what is made now days. Is a basic high carbon steel. It’s fine but won’t hold an edge long and rusts easily.
It’s just a traditional tool that is still made, but it doesn’t make it good by modern standards - people hype it up to be though..

 

[cookies]

Old swords are full of impurities. What it takes to make a steel good for cutlery and the same for one to make high strength steel automotive unibodies and fender stampings are two different things.

The steel you dislike is manufactured in the us at the japanese owned plants using imported garbage steel from china brought to you by our idiot government and past presidents starting with carter. Made in usa is the issue every one blames on china, our steel plants should be filling the worlds needs but instead we are told it is a sin while india and china pollute uncontrollably.
Japanese knives are some of if not the finest steel in the world to use in the kitchen to cut with, I only need to sharpen mine every 3-4 months at home or every two weeks in a restaurant working 40 a week cutting.

 

[Remiskeet]

Moi aussi

Ich möchte eine neue Kettensäge

 

[bwalker]

The steel you dislike is manufactured in the us at the japanese owned plants using imported garbage steel from china brought to you by our idiot government and past presidents starting with carter. Made in usa is the issue every one blames on china, our steel plants should be filling the worlds needs but instead we are told it is a sin while india and china pollute uncontrollably.
Japanese knives are some of if not the finest steel in the world to use in the kitchen to cut with, I only need to sharpen mine every 3-4 months at home or every two weeks in a restaurant working 40 a week cutting.

Source= buddy at the local bar.

 

[cookies]

Source= buddy at the local bar.

Baosteel supplies toyota

 

[Bill G]

Baosteel supplies toyota

Come on, everyone knows Toyota is "top notch" Those in the plants know a bit.

 

[bwalker]

Baosteel supplies toyota

Not in North America and I am not even sure that's the case in Japan.