Synthetic oil, more power?

[Crofter]

Slabmaster, You did say saw engine but if the same applies to other engines, a lot of the engine manufacturers are making a big mistake. You can still google up sites on the internet that will support what you are saying but that notion has been pretty well debunked on a technical level. There probably existed a few applications that had a unique combination of cylinder surface and ring material that had a tendency to glaze and perhaps needed some special concerns if that happened. I do remember many years ago reading about a procedure to deal with glazing that recommended shaking Bon Ami powdered cleanser into the intake of the running engine. They also recommended changing oil several times immediately after to get the debris out.
The quicker you do the break in the bigger the particles you knock off; the pistons, needle and ball bearings are exposed to this. 99% of what you will read from technical sources will not recommend conditions for break in that encourage high wear rates. Usually the recommendation is to run perhaps a little richer to keep temperatures and revs down.

 

[kurtty]

Break-in on a saw using synthetic oil takes twice as long as regular oil.It should never be used until the saw is fully broke in.The faster the break-in period.the better for the longivity of the saw.Think if it as useing 1000 grit sand paper instead of 220 when sanding something.the 220 get it there faster and more even.If done slower with 1000 grit,the end product would be wavyier and not as flat.That is what is happening to a cylinder wall when broke in slower.Not as flat and true.This is not an old wives tale as earlier stated by someone.It's common since.

i understand your analogy and why its improtant to break in with dyno oil and not synthetic.
so in conclusion to this thread first 10 tanks dyno... after that sythetic is better in every way shape and form and will increase the lifetime of your saw. right... do we all agree to this? that synthetic has reduced friction and carbon when compaired to dyno.

 

[mountain_man]

i understand your analogy and why its improtant to break in with dyno oil and not synthetic.
so in conclusion to this thread first 10 tanks dyno... after that sythetic is better in every way shape and form and will increase the lifetime of your saw. right... do we all agree to this? that synthetic has reduced friction and carbon when compaired to dyno.

No we don't but then again we never will. You break in yours the way you see fit and I'll continue running synthetic for the full life.

 

[Lakeside53]

I'm not in the dyno oil camp at all. I'm with Crofter..

All my new or rebuilt saws/blowers/weedeters etrc run on synth from day one. Maybe they take a tank longer to break in, maybe... and Stihl says it's o.k., so that's fine with me.

BTW.. synth oil mix is only about 20% better at lubrication... but a heck of a lot better at cleansing...

 

[Gooserider]

I'm still breaking in my Dolmar - which in the manual says use 50:1 w/ Dolmar brand mix oil, and 25:1 w/ everybody else's... I don't buy that, as I figure that any QUALITY brand mix oil should be OK, can't think of what they would put in Dolmar oil to make it any different...

When I purchased the saw, I had in my collection of stuff a six-pack of Stihl Orange bottle "one-gallon-one-shots" - which I consider to be good oil, but from what others here say, I believe is dino-based. Labeling says it has gas preservative in it, (one reason I bought it) but doesn't say it's synthetic...

I'm mixing it one bottle to 0.9 gallons of gas for a slightly rich mix, and figure that I will use the 6-pack, then go to synthetics. That will be a bit over 10 tanks, probably closer to 20-25 (I also use some in my Pull-on, and other 2-cycle stuff) but certainly will be a good break-in.

I'm also (I think) running a bit rich - my DTI tach says the saw is running about 12,500 revving it no-load, just the 20" B&C. Manual says 13,500 is max speed. (though max hp and torque is down around 7,000 - 9,500) - my understanding is that if the speed is low, that should be rich? I'm getting very light smoke at cold engine startup for the first minute or so, then nothing visible.

Gooserider

 

[wireedm]

Break-in on a saw using synthetic oil takes twice as long as regular oil.It should never be used until the saw is fully broke in.The faster the break-in period.the better for the longivity of the saw.Think if it as useing 1000 grit sand paper instead of 220 when sanding something.the 220 get it there faster and more even.If done slower with 1000 grit,the end product would be wavyier and not as flat.That is what is happening to a cylinder wall when broke in slower.Not as flat and true.This is not an old wives tale as earlier stated by someone.It's common since.

I'll disagree. It's not the oil that does the breaking in, and synthetic is not "twice as slick" as dino.

The reason synthetic is used is because it creates MUCH less suit and carbon in the engine and crankcase, thereby creating a lot less wear to the engine in the long run.

 

[bwalker]

I break them in with synthetics, but I am not one to baby them while breaking in either. Fast break in is achieved by by alternating high and low loads.

 

[PES+]

Just for clarity

I dont think I have ever seen a engine that failed where it could be proven that oil caused the problem.
Air leaks and dirt ingestion kill most two strokes before they have the chance to wear out.

Ben.....you are saying that you have never seen a failure that is attributable to the oil itself or am I misunderstanding?

The tell tale signs of lubrication failure are well known and have been since almost the very start of ICE

 

[bwalker]

Ben.....you are saying that you have never seen a failure that is attributable to the oil itself or am I misunderstanding?

Bingo.
The failures I have seen have always been caused by other things like air leaks, detonation,dirt etc. I guess that one could argue that any seizure in a two stroke is a lubricant failure, but the lubricant certainly isnt the root cause from what I have seen.
Whats been your expiereance?

 

[slabmaster]

I'll disagree. It's not the oil that does the breaking in, and synthetic is not "twice as slick" as dino.

The reason synthetic is used is because it creates MUCH less suit and carbon in the engine and crankcase, thereby creating a lot less wear to the engine in the long run.

You are wrong there! synthetic oil used at breakin gunks up the engine more that dino oil does,and that can cause problems down the road.It gunks up the transfers real bad.

 

[Lakeside53]

I don't see any "gunk" in synth oil run engines... just a nice CLEAN oil film....

 

[bwalker]

You are wrong there! synthetic oil used at breakin gunks up the engine more that dino oil does,and that can cause problems down the road.It gunks up the transfers real bad.

BS!

BTW you should call Stihl immediately and let them know that they are wrong. After all Ultra was brought out to deal with deposit issues in four mix motors...

 

[eyolf]

Ben Walker talks about never seeing an oil-related failure in a two stroke. Would I be picking nits to suggest that he add the caveat: "modern two stroke"?

back in the late '60's and early '70's I saw a number of oil-related failures in sno-mo engines. Most were from the fact that little was known about what made a good oil. Most two-stroke oils were straight 30 non-det, and dye.

Failures were predictable: detonation as carbon build-up increased compression ratio, or preignition as glowing carbon lit off charges too soon. Occasionally ring grooves would become coked up and the rings would stop sealing; blow-by would clean the oil off the cylinder wall faster than it could be redeposited (especially on cast-iron cylinders) and you would have a "wiped" cylinder. Chrome cylinders would flake the chrome when this happened. This happened all the time on the "hot side" of fan cooled twins, and the early free air sleds did this a lot.

Lots of folks ran 16:1 or 20:1 back then to try to keep cylinder walls alive, but the trade-off with deposits made it a losing proposition.

In 1971, Scorpion snowmobile co. ordered a large quantity of a then-new synthetic oil from Shell oil co. to repackage with their label. At first, just the factory racers used it (my uncle and a neighbor were on the team) but after the summer off season we learned that the stuff was somewhat hygroscopic...attracted water. The insides of our engines were full of the same white crap that gets in carburetors, and few survived more than a few seconds into the first fall start-up.

I remember being pretty unhappy that I had ruined the engine on my TNT with that crappy (free) Scorpion oil. To help make it up, my uncle got me a 650 Hirth "Red Baron" engine from the racing program at Scorpion, That TNT would flat haul after that.

 

[bwalker]

Would I be picking nits to suggest that he add the caveat: "modern two stroke

No, you would not and you are correct in your assumption.

 

[Andyshine77]

You are wrong there! synthetic oil used at breakin gunks up the engine more that dino oil does,and that can cause problems down the road.It gunks up the transfers real bad.

I here some saw builders saying this or that synthetic runs clean, than the next day they say synthetic oil shouldn't be used in 2 stroke engine at all. When it comes down to it they're just full of bs.

Now I'm not an engine builder and I don't work on saws every day, but I've been running 2cycle equipment for most of my life, and I can tell you without any doubt in my mind, synthetic oil runs much cleaner than dino oil. I've ran synthetic oil in my 361 from day one, and all of the ports, and the rings look like new

 

[streeter]

You are wrong there! synthetic oil used at breakin gunks up the engine more that dino oil does,and that can cause problems down the road.It gunks up the transfers real bad.

I have been building all types of engines (2 stroke, 4 stroke, wankels) since the early 80's. I have never had an oiling problem due to oil. I assemble with synthetic, I break-in with synthetic, I thrash the hell out of everything and not one oil failure Sure, I have aired out blocks, bent cranks, broken con-rods

If you have gunk build up then you have other underlying problems.

There is a reason that it is called dino oil....Time to step out of the Dinosaur age

 

[PES+]

I agree

Bingo.
The failures I have seen have always been caused by other things like air leaks, detonation,dirt etc. I guess that one could argue that any seizure in a two stroke is a lubricant failure, but the lubricant certainly isnt the root cause from what I have seen.
Whats been your expiereance?

I can count on one hand plus a finger or two the failures that were due to the actual oil WHEN USED AS DIRECTED BY THE OIL MAKER.

I have seen people mixing 100 to 1 ratio oils at 50 to 1 or 60 to one and make a gloppy mess and starve bearings with the coked up sludge.

Also in the Partner P100 and Mac PM 1000 many of them came with T slot compression release which is a slot cut in the cylinder to make for easier starting without compromising performance too much.

Too much oil and or extra additive oil fills the slot and ends up making them kick like a mule and ruining starter pulleys.

 

[bwalker]

Id chalk that op to operator error.

 

[mountain_man]

You missed an oil thread bump! I'll help you out