Tcia & Isa

[clearance]

Was wondering when you were going to jump on a ISA thread, knowing how you feel about the group you were gentle, thanks.

Dada, I have met a few ISA certified guys who were decent and have common sense. I would like your opinion on that thread I spoke of though, it may interest you, then again it will probably disturb you as well.

 

[joesawer]

Certified does not, has not, and will not mean qualified. But the litigation people love it.

 

[John464]

Yeah that's right--we don't need no stinking organizations, screw em all. Stick it to the man!

Uh, wait, the man is...us! :blush:

I don't want to break up the flow of the group rant here, but this one got a little deep...Nope, I don't work for them. I do get paid for writing some things, which comes out to a beginner groundie's pay rate but that's not why I do it. I volunteer to do committee work because I have a blatant interest in the health of both orgs, and I know the only way to change the BIG problems I see with them is to get involved. TCIA does a great job with ANSI standards--you've heard of those?--and keeping that biggest ugliest org of all, the us government, off your back. But CA's screw up too. Just today I came out of a big red oak I was reducing before I cable it, and the lady across the street had me look at a declining cherry tree that a CA was due to remove today but did a no show. i found a girdling root and had my crew prune it and the branches, saving a lot of $, and the tree I have 3 certifications and oldschool gear and can outclimb a lot of newschoolers with more gear than some stores. What does that tell you? Not much.

Are you willing to shed your ego and change these organizations by working with them, or are you content to lob hand grenades and sit on the sidelines?opcorn: :welcome:

Nope, I don't work for them. I do get paid for writing some things, which comes out to a beginner groundie's pay rate but that's not why I do it. I volunteer to do committee work because I have a blatant interest in the health of both orgs, and I know the only way to change the BIG problems I see with them is to get involved. TCIA does a great job with ANSI standards--you've heard of those?--and keeping that biggest ugliest org of all, the us government, off your back.

You don't work for them but are on the committe board, write articles for them, and write their "rule book", and you get paid. That is an employee covering many divisions of the company. Sounds like a great employee at that. They love you Guy, keep up the good work. If your customers cant keep you busy I'm sure the ISA and TCIA will pay you to sit in the office writing and talking about trees. You suggest I do that? No thanks, I prefer actually working on trees then talking about them.

Never said that. I may have said words to that effect, because most tree services are removal specialists.

There you go making blanket statements again. Since you are so fond of linking statistics, where is literature to make such a statement? There are more companies in the US that call themselves "XYZ tree service" than any other term. You are saying that the majority of tree proffesionals are not qualified just because of a way their company name? If I were to make blanket statements about a lot of certified guys I could say they are better to call when you need easy handsaw cuts in your tree instead of rigging large dead limbs that require a 440 sized chainsaw to get through them. I know thats not true, but If I were into generalizations like you I could surely go on.

It tells me that your employees need to learn how to climb better, which means that you need to trust them and train them, if you can.

You are right my employees need to learn how to climb better and that is why I don't put them on the most challenging tasks. They will get to that point and I can tell you that they will not get there because they have the latest ISA certificate. It will be acquired through real life experience that takes place outside of the office. I am glad they are certified, it shows they are serious about their job, but do they stand out over and above my employees over the years? Sure, they carry a lot more gear up with them.

Sorry to get the truth in the way of a good story, but the ISA is a nonprofit, very different from a private business.

Nonprofit you say? Take a look at one of their CD's or DVD's for a few hundred dollars a piece. How much does that CD cost to manufacturer? Perhaps a a few dollars. How much did it cost them to organize the info within it? As you said we have guys like you who are only making "ground guys pay" for their time.

So were does that huge profit go? It surely isnt going to homeowner education. It is going to full page ads marketing to arborists . It is going to Hawaii for a trade show. Their profit is largely placed into pulling more arborists to sign up. If they cared so much about trees they would inform the homeowners, because ultimately the homeowner or business requesting such services on their trees will have the final say. However, that homeowner isn't going to pay $200 for a CD or sign up as an ISA or TCIA member. Real non profit organizations try to make a difference in all aspects of the spectrum they organized within. Just targeting those that effect revenue will only make a difference to a limited extent.

If it's a non profit organization I believe it is within each and every member's right to know where the $ is going. Just today we found out some of it goes to Guy Mueiller, although he doesn't think it's much or not enough.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

The real purpose of the ISA cert is to show that the practitioner has a minimum knowledge level, it was never meant to show expertise. It only requires 2 or 4 (cannot remember) years in the industry, or a degree.

Then again, climbing is not the end all to arboriculture, which is what Guy was getting at. For many tree companies removal and aesthetic trim work constitute a the bulk of gross revenue.

One way I make my money is providing ID and pathology information and opinions to my tree company clientel, because they have not had the time or inclination to pursue it.

Last week I asked one of them what kind of arborist he was, when he parked the loader under a tree to keep the seat from getting hot.

 

[treeseer]

John I agree with your observations about the lack of focus on their primary mission of educating the public. Do you know what ISA and TCIA are doing now, and have ideas on how can they do a better job of raising tree awareness?

As for the rest, time to clarify a few more misconceptions:

You don't work for them but are on the committe board, write articles for them, and write their "rule book"

I serve on one ISA committee, and no I'm not on any of the "rule book" ANSI committees. I do join in ANSI work by making comments during the Public Coment period, which anyone can do if they give a spit about industry rules and want to change them.

If you read the page 8 articles of the last two TCI mags and think they are worthless, I apologize for wasting your time. What makes them useful to most readers is the fact they are based on field experience. I prefer actually working on trees and then talking about them, instead of flaming on a forum about how orgs suck and I am great.

You are saying that the majority of tree proffesionals are not qualified just because of a way their company name?

I'm saying what JPS is saying, above. Based on 42 years of working with and competing against tree services, I have no doubt that most focus on easy money--removals and cutting branches out of the way of something, rather than caring for the whole tree so it lasts. There is a growing market for tree care and a shrinking number of urban trees that need removing, and a growing number of tree removal specialists, many of them with cheap immigrant labor. Do the math.

You are right my employees need to learn how to climb better and that is why I don't put them on the most challenging tasks. They will get to that point and I can tell you that they will not get there because they have the latest ISA certificate. It will be acquired through real life experience that takes place outside of the office. I am glad they are certified, it shows they are serious about their job...

Darn right it does. And I agree that field experience is essential for book learning to work. We agree on a lot; how about applying your energy in a positive way? Do you know what ISA and TCIA are doing now, and have ideas on how can they do a better job of raising tree awareness?

 

[Pancake]

Our company has 4 employees and we are the only TCIA Acredited company in the state, and only 2 of the bordering states have Acredtied companies- good selling point. We are also all Certified Arborists, 3 of us are Tree Workers and 1 is a Utility Specailist. We charge $350 an hour and do mosly all day jobs. I think the credentials AND our quality service allow us to charge those rates. We all climb and drag brush. I have a dergee and a applicators liscence, however, my ISA certifications have helped me the most in the field. Both groups are non profits so you can get annual reports to see thebottom line. The ISA publishes both theirs and individual chapters annually and they are presented at conference. I think the industry is getting saturated wiyh weekend warrior type tree companies- capitalism. That's fine. It is my feeling that the more professional we are as a whole, the more money we will collectively make all while making the trees we love healthier. Why are you dancing in the tree?

 

[jrparbor04]

when a person decides to become an I.S.A. Certified Arborist they are making an effort to stay on top of the industry ever changing standards and science,,,they have comitted themselves to trim and remove properly and safely,,,not all do that,,,but i for one am comitted to the trees,,,that is why i am in the industry,,,,,BECAUSE I CARE

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Man, some of you just don't get it!

Certification and accreditation programs should be welcomed by anyone in this business who has a brain. The problem with "old-timers" is they want things to keep rolling along their way, and, guess what? Their way is, many times, NOT the right way, the best way for the trees. I have worked with guys who have been in the biz thirty years, and I have been shocked to see improper cuts, dangerous climbing gear, terrible technique, etc. I worked hard to get my degree, get my CA, get my applicator's license. I will continue to learn more, study more, and get more certificates when called on to do so. Instead of being close-minded, try to see the positive side of rules and regulations enforcement: Fewer fly-by-night and monkey-with-chainsaw "companies" could pop up to slice the pie so thin that it's no longer worth working in our chosen profession.

I have a unique perspective here: Some of you know I was a tattooist before getting into arboriculture. I saw shop after shop open in my town until I could no longer make a living with my shop. The body-mod biz has two major organizations, APP & APT, that try to represent it. Both of these organizations, when I was a member, basically tried to push for self-regulation, as opposed to government regulations. I knew this was the wrong way to go, as it let anyone open a shop. Without strict regulations from a governing body, the field became glutted. Now tattooing and body piercing are the domains of 18-25 year old rock star wannabees who make 7-12K/yr. and think they have it made. Nevermind that in the days before the glut I made six times that working a grueling three-day work week.

The point is, if you complain about too many people getting into the biz, if you hate to see illegal aliens taking your jobs away with low-ball bids, then you need to wise up: Pushing for stricter regulations, more oversight and tougher standards can only HELP those who honestly have respect for the trees they work on and want to do the best job possible for them, while making a very good living, one that makes them proud to be in our profession.

FWIW, I read every issue of both ISA and TCIA magazines. They are wellsprings of great, up-to-date information. I also read each issue of ISA's technical mag, and I'm a better arborist for it! When I took the ISA Oak Wilt Specialist training, I was able to discuss details of an article I had read in the ISA technical mag with the author himself, who was one of our lecturers. What a great experience!

You guys out there who want to #$$% and moan about being regulated need to wise up. Learning more, adding more to your knowledge base about the trees we all work on, in order to qualify you and/or your company for mandated certification/accreditation standards, will help you stay ahead of the crowd, and help keep the bums out of our biz!

 

[treesquirrel]

You guys out there who want to #$$% and moan about being regulated need to wise up. Learning more, adding more to your knowledge base about the trees we all work on, in order to qualify you and/or your company for mandated certification/accreditation standards, will help you stay ahead of the crowd, and help keep the bums out of our biz!

My business is primarily delivering what the customer asks for when they decide they want a tree removed. I decline jobs and refer them to more experienced folk if the risks are outside my expertise. I use very sound judgement in assesment of a removal procedure and the safety factors.

I will assert that in my work I have no need of any ruling authority to give me any blessings of any sort. I do not call myself an arborist due to my lack of accredation however I do not consider myself a bum because of it either.

There are lines I will not cross in respect of the recognized authorities such as removals close to electrical lines, or on road right of ways. I'd wager the majority of the "bums" you refer to do not exercise good judgement and would knowingly perform jobs they should leave to the properly authorized companies.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

John I agree with your observations about the lack of focus on their primary mission of educating the public. Do you know what ISA and TCIA are doing now, and have ideas on how can they do a better job of raising tree awareness?

Get involved in a number of home improvement shows on TV. How many time do we see a post here asking why they did it that way?

I saw a This Old House where they were they were limbing up a willow, and brought in an arborist. The professional climber was one handing the saw, and Roger had the home owner cutting limbs with a hardhat but no safety glasses.

One I cannot remember had an old lady with a garden saying "don't be afraid to limb up your trees to let in light" they raped the lower limbs with huge wounds....

 

[joesawer]

I am a certified line clearance tree trimmer, since 93. The certification was incredibly easy. But it makes sure that at least you have been exposed to basic knowledge.
I do not consider myself an arborist, (I am more of a take down specialist). I cannot compare with some of the people on this site. Before you make personal attacks against some of them consider the wealth of information they freely share here. If I happen on a problem that I don't know anything about I can search this forum and people like Treeseer and John Paul Sanborn and others have pretty much already covered it. Their wealth of knowledge is invaluable. I don't have the time or resources to learn all that they know.
As for fixing problems with organizations that is fine but please don't make personal attacks against people who have only shown respect and an interest in helping others.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

(snip)

I will assert that in my work I have no need of any ruling authority to give me any blessings of any sort. I do not call myself an arborist due to my lack of accredation however I do not consider myself a bum because of it either.

There are lines I will not cross in respect of the recognized authorities such as removals close to electrical lines, or on road right of ways. I'd wager the majority of the "bums" you refer to do not exercise good judgement and would knowingly perform jobs they should leave to the properly authorized companies.

I apologize if I led you to think that I believe that all non-certified folks in our business are bums. Rather, I was trying to get across my belief that more rules and regulations in our profession would help keep know-nothings ("bums") from getting into the arboriculture profession where they could hurt the trees and (by underbidding and glutting our field) hurt us.

I know there are good people out there without certification, but the certification process certainly does increase one's knowledge base. To deny that is ludicrous.

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

As for fixing problems with organizations that is fine but please don't make personal attacks against people who have only shown respect and an interest in helping others.

Thanks Joe, we need more of this level headed response.

As for acquisition of knowledge; well you are doing it here, just use the internet a bit more and get a few books to read on the toity (multitasking ).

I spent nearly 9 years in the Marine Corps and Guy got lost in Haight-Ashbury for a number of years, so neither of us started this quest at an early age.

What started it for me was I fell into a position that had me doing tree work full time after years of part time and stop-gap work. I was supposed to just be a seasonal grounder, but found myself running the crew in a few months. So I went to the library and got P.P. Pirone's "Tree Maintenance" by P. P. Pirone (Author), Thomas P. Pirone (Author), J. R. Hartman (Author), M. A. Sall (Author)

That was in the early-mid 90's.

 

[Pancake]

Putting more thought into this discussion I looked at other professions. Roofers, plumbers, electricians etc all seem to have their share of "fly by nighters". Maybe it is their way to live the American dream of owning their own business. There is still however, a large group of people who desire the job to be done right by qualified people. Maybe the root word for accredation is credible? We are dealing with living organisms the same as doctors. Would you trust someone who can sew a mean sweater to stitch your arm up? Of coarse not, you want a highly skilled and qualified person doing the job. I don't the mind yahoos or even people who have been doing tree work for some time (albiet the wrong way). It used to discourage me. Now I look at it as an educational opportunity for both them and the customers. We are in a period of rapid advancement for this industry- this discussion is an indicator of the growing pains we are all feeling. The bottom line is that I want what's best for trees, customers, and the Profit and Loss statement for my family. If you feel the Industry Oranizations are the wrong way- don't join them. Remember you are not required to keep pace with new techniques or even learn the latest safety protocols.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Belonging to the Industry Organizations has nothing to do with keeping pace with new techniques or leaning the latest safty protocols.

The market is so flooded with 'know very little' Certified Arborist that the designation is almost useless today. After 17 years with my CA I've considered dropping out.

I strongly disagree with you. There is so much to learn in our profession right now, and more being discovered each day. ISA and TCIA both do a great job at getting information out there in their publications and workshops. To be a member helps one gain easier access to this information and gives a sense of "belonging" which encourages one to keep up to date. True, you can read both magazines online without being a member, but again, I believe membership encourages one's quest for knowledge. As for "know very little" CA's, how exactly do they pass the test without knowing much? I took the test last October, FWIW, and I certainly learned a good deal while I was studying for it. Along those lines, getting CEU's, a necessity to maintain certification, also teaches one new things. While I've been in the trees for a good while, my knowledge base took a huge step up when I got on the certification track. Also, my income ramped up as people sought me out because of my new credentials. You want to drop your CA, sure, go right ahead. Problem is, if regulation of our industry from above (pun?) becomes a reality, as I hope it will, you may have to sit for the CA exam again. You'll have no problem passing it, I'm sure, but why have to go through it again, needlessly?

 

[beowulf343]

I worked hard to get my degree, get my CA, get my applicator's license. I will continue to learn more, study more, and get more certificates when called on to do so.

The problem is too many ca's get the letters behind their name and think they are now top dogs in the tree world and don't need to learn anything more or listen to anybody else. To put it bluntly, i've run across too many young ca's who are know it all punks yet have done so little tree work it is almost laughable.

Not saying all ca's are this way because i have worked with some that really know their stuff-but sadly they seem few and far between.

 

[jonseredbred]

To put it bluntly, i've run across too many ca's who are know it all punks yet have done so little tree work it is almost laughable

I agree totally. I dont know if its because of the part of the country we are in or what, but most of the CA's around here are ultra political and really bad tree guys.

 

[John464]

Remember you are not required to keep pace with new techniques or even learn the latest safety protocols.

Do you really think that if the ISA doesn't list a technique then we as arborists are doing something wrong? They are a private organization whose findings try to represent an entire industry as a whole. They do provide mostly truth in this. However, when we have trees that adapt in different soils, temps, water tables, etc. That same species tree will react differently to methods they lay down because of the variances we have across the map. A poster above pointed out that we are like doctors of living nature. If we as doctors were to only open up a book and say I must follow the protocol and disregard our best judgement based on the particular individual needs of a unique situation then we may not handle the matter correctly. This also would not allow for new discovery and progession in the field.

We have been caring for some of the same trees for 47 yrs. I have seen how trees react based on our own documentation and discoverings in NJ PA and DE. My research and expertise I would not apply to say California because that is not what I have studied. I do not need an organization to regulate my own strategy based on what I know works in my area. Yes we as a company are consistantly improving applications and learning, by being amongst trees every day. Being certified is a good step in learning, but it should never be looked at as because someone is certified they know more than the next guy. That's becoming a bad stereo type and is the reason the ISA has a bunch of newbies who can't even tie a knot become certified. They want to get a name tag as a "certified arborist" so they can happily jump right into that stereo type and tell clients they know what they are doing. The term certified arborist is being used as a selling tool and sometimes after the fact the job is in progress ISA standards aren't followed. Why is the ISA letting these guys do this? Is it because they studied for a few weeks for a test and passed/forgotten what they have "learned" or was it because they have practiced correct techniques for years and shown they really care? They paid their dues(pun inteneded).



Think how easy it is to drive a car. You need to demonstrate on a real paved road with real traffic lights and real passing cars before they allow to drive. The ISA allows you to say you are an arborist and can be an arborist without demonstrating squat! You could of became an arborist in a classroom in Arizona with nothing but cactus for miles and never even seen a decidous tree in your life, but ya you studied hard and checked the correct answers so you are now I proclaim you a "certified arborist" You must be better than the next guy.

Can someone here post the ISA and TCIA financials since it seems they are publically available? For a non profit group they sure do have one heck of an advertising campaign primarily targeted at those who may feel the need to cut them a check

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Actually I do not think they are active enough in the public view. I would like to see them become educators of the public.

The biggest problem with the argument above, "this is what I see" is that it it is anecdotal. If the practitioner takes anecdotal evidence and applies it to ongoing study of the science done by others, then that is a good thing. If one spends 47 years doing what one does in isolation then that is not good for the trees or the clientel.

Yes there are people who abuse the ISA/CA thing. I have not gone for it because I've not really needed it to sell myself to prospective clients. Having a home owner call a service with one on staff is better for them then one that does not, at least from a statistical sense, though a concerned consumer should be able to rule out "Jacks Tree Trimming and Roof Taring".

 

[lxt]

wonderful posts guys & good opinions!! Look I think being a certified arborist can be a good thing, & no to jprarbor04`s comment I can pass the test I just dont care to take it(seems very unionlike & political) sorry!!!

jprarbor04- you never answered the question of how long you`ve been in the tree world, your a forestry worker for god sake!! give tours to the kindergarten kids tellin em which tree is which, when that slows down go spray the poison ivy off the walkin path, Certified is good I agree however dont cheapen the cert. & create new BS. the reason for this post was to show that now certified dont mean anything. accredited does!!!(maybe)

there will always be hacks in this industry & arrogant knowitall forestry workers. I ask you this why is it when any young guy here wants to learn this trade they search out the old timers? wasnt no ISA/TCIA in the 60`s, 70`s or part of the 80`s and the industry did fine!!!

MY theory: college professors in horticulture & tree biology, etc... ran out of students(look at the curiculums& how it has changed) so ole PHD Phil & other colleagues start lobbying for justice, create wonderful money grubbin organizations to get back their dignity Wahla ISA/TCIA.

what I got from that article was; get rid of the small guy by way of creating certs & other such, he wont be able to keep up with it all, take his american right(whether you like it or not) to free enterprise through regulation!! PLAIN WRONG! MY RIGHTS outway any BS. lobbyin organization!! Sorry.

LXT.............