Tcia & Isa

[treeseer]

wonderful posts guys & good opinions!! I can pass the test I just dont care to take it(seems very unionlike & political) sorry!!!

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that...

MY theory: college professors in horticulture & tree biology, etc... ran out of students(look at the curiculums& how it has changed) so ole PHD Phil & other colleagues start lobbying for justice, create wonderful money grubbin organizations to get back their dignity Wahla ISA/TCIA.

This is whack. ISA grew out of the Shade Tree org, and NAA/TCIA has been around a long while. ISA has always had a healthy influence from university researchers, NAA much less so. You are lumping orgs together without much knowledge about them.

what I got from that article was; get rid of the small guy by way of creating certs & other such, he wont be able to keep up with it all, take his american right(whether you like it or not) to free enterprise through regulation!! PLAIN WRONG! MY RIGHTS outway any BS. lobbyin organization!! Sorry.

I got this from the article--show companies the way to rise above the underthetable underinsured underinformed companies(no I'm not judging any postes here, just a generalization that cities will understandably make. If you have the insurance and the knowhow you can document it without being accredited), spending more on training their staff and keeping them safe. fwiw you still have the right to free enterprise. the small guy can attain certs, and the small compaies can document their safety and training to compete on a level field with the bigs.

Re public education, the ISA just spent money to redo this excellent resource http://www.treesaregood.org/ which is why I put it into my sig here. They also spent a lot on a member survey to 20,000 members, and 19,000+ did not bother to return it, then wonder why they are underrepresented . Aside from getting on tv more, what do you suggest they do?

TreeCo Dan if you are not getting enough out of your CA you are not putting enough into it. I just did a 3-hour tour/consult of a gorgeous estate whose owner ok'd 6 crew/days of work this summer and will be a lifelong client. Very pleasant and lucrative work. They found me on the ISA site, which is where they went to find someone qualified (not asca or anywhere else).

 

[lxt]

treeseer, I`ll send you your nickel!!! the test is no harder than any other test Ive taken(ACRT, LCTT, Dept of Agriculture core exams,etc...) study an anyone can pass!! not sayin you wont have to take 2-3 times but its a test not real life!!!(this is where it counts)

secondly, you my man need to check your facts, ISA grew outta what? so all the venture capitalist who hug trees, bugs,animals & bacteria in a turd had nothin to do with it uhh? better research your employer!!

I guess the section in the article about gettin $70,000.00 more a year is OK? its ok if your a certified accredited tree company uhh? bring us your book smart & they will bring the the noncertified talent that will be doing the work!!!

and how much should Dan from treeco put into his ISA cert. arborist credentials MMmmm.. couple more $200 videos, some $100 books, some $1000.00 seminars.......... for what? to be ISA/TCIA proud?

treeseer...........keep givin em your money, cause what I save without their certs. I`ll put into my house, car, Harley, childs college etc...

Free Enterprise doesnt mean I have to follow!! thats why its called america.
My company is legit, but if I do a job for cash & pay cash oh well. guess you never did this(if I had a nickel...) bottom line is who do these organizations think they are to impose regulations on someones livelyhood by thinkin their way is better?

LXT...........

 

[RedlineIt]

If I ran the ISA...

...and I wanted to educate the public as to the benefit of hiring an ISA qualified arborist, I would look no further than television and some of the bogus representations our industry gets on TV.

There have been topics here dissing the television shows on Home and Garden TV, This Old House, Dirty Jobs on SpikeTV, and rightly so. A lot of these shows feature poor and unsafe practices.

Additionally, there are logger sports still on TV. Sponsored by chainsaw companies, you can watch spar climbing competitions, axe throwing, one and two person crosscut handsaw races, axe work you can barely believe, and of course, the chainsaw classes. There is a local competition that I attend, women's log birling is not to be missed. Great fun.

So what about us? The ISA climbers? We have climbing competitions. I got eliminated early in the last PNW comp, and frankly I never expected that I could win, place or show, the competition was just too strong.

But what if we put a man in the tree with a camera, catching the skill of the competition, what if we presented the competition as representation of how skilled climber can negotiate any tree without undue stress or damage.

The climbing comps I've been to would have made great TV, "Oh he's lost his handsaw, he's out after a great climb." "What he's planning here is a bit of risk, but No, he's made it!" "Well done, I say, that sets the standard."

It would make great TV, following the winners from the various regions to the world finals.

And if the ISA would do that, it might not only get their name recognized beyond their membership, it might raise public awareness, and if they market the program properly, make a profit.

I, for one, am tired of seeing nothing for my membership other than my membership. A junior member may see the CEU's as a way to keep current, but when it's all old hat, and the same thing is offered for CEU's again and again, nothing fresh, it's time to want more.

I want the ISA to make some impression on the public, it was part of their original mission, but it has become lost. I'm tired of paying membership for nothing more than a chance to repay for my membership.

Get the word out ISA, buy an ad or make a show, do something!

No one, NO ONE, knows what the ISA is until they run into a problem with their trees. Why is this?

Because the ISA has zero public profile.

This should change.

How?

I have ideas, have presented one.


What say you?




RedlineIt

 

[lxt]

redlineit, I think that would work, I highly agree about the ceu`s thing, you might have something here!!! some might think im knockin knowledge, Im not I just want it to be ran properly without the lobbyin BS. If the organization would help its members not through Govt. rules and such, but like you said promote themselves publicly somehow!! this would help.


LXT.........

 

[jonseredbred]

Great post RedlineIt !! you hit the mark.

Up here in Western Ny, no one knows what the ISA is except member's.

Let me guess, I am supposed to spend a large chunk of my business' advertising to push the ISA locally?

 

[treeseer]

Great idea on the videocam in a tree; I will bring mine to St. louis next year. Anyone going to hawaii want to take that on?

re the $70,000 extra (page 66 middle bottom), the companies that did not meet the city's safety standards can invest more in safety training and meet the criteria in time for the next bid cycle. If yours was the only company that met the criteria and thus did the contract for $70,000 more than the next bidder, I do not think you would be complaining.

Re TreeCo's lack of input, I was talking about energy and involvement, not money. Dan and I have together in person bemoaned the downward slide in the meaning and value of certification in the 15 years since we got it. I know we can make more of a difference by getting more involved than not.

re free enterprise, no one can make a CA buy anything. I chose to purchase every book my non-employer ISA sells because they make me more valuable to my clients, who pay me more for my knowledge than my sweat (though I am glad to give both). I can keep the master, utility and muni certs and not spend a nickel on products or even on conferences. Many ways to skin the CEU cat.

Both orgs have a lot of room for improvement, but the industry is better off with them than without them.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

I just did a search by county and I'm not there either.

It looks like the old 'search for a certified arborist by zip code' is gone and is now replaced by 'verify a certification number'. I wonder how people are supposed to find us like that?

I just searched the county next to me and the same three names come up.

Their site is a big mess. It does not help homeowners find CA's.

What is the problem? I ask that with all due respect. You can search by location, zip, certificate number and Last Name. Man, come on!

http://www.isa-arbor.com/findArborist/findarborist.aspx

 

[treeseer]

Thank you.

You are right! I was at the ISA's 'Trees are Good' site by mistake. It's the first hits when doing a google search for the International Society of Arboriculture

http://www.treesaregood.org/findtreeservices/FindTreeCareService.aspx

Why would treesaregood come up first? Ads there are free for now but will cost later. I'd hate to see a paid listing eclipse the free listing for certified arborists. If this is the case I will join lxt in ranting about bs cash-grabbing tactics (much as i hate to feed that fire ).

But I repeat the only way this kind of stuff will change is members speaking out to the org, and over 19,000 were mute on the last survey. Ranting here does zilch.

 

[lxt]

treeseer, dont take it as ranting if anything what I was trying to say is now even arborist cert. doesnt mean anything in a city with a municipal arborist program, an accredited company that has all the papers so to speak gets first preference.

Look I get upset because!! ok im gonna finally take the arborist test so some of the towns,cities in my area will hand me some work ontop of gaining some knowledge through fellowship with others who take the work serious(not meaning you have to be certified, im not & im serious about the trade) then I read that article & it just seemed like you might as well throw your cert. out the window. I hope Im reading it wrong!!!

treeseer you seem very knowledgeable, ive read your posts, I am not certified but many in my area who are;respect my opinion & in some cases refer me to do work (I was just interviewed by the local newspaper regarding the emerald ash borer because most arborists here dont know anything about it, so they refered to me!! go figure uhh)

LXT........

 

[treesquirrel]

I apologize if I led you to think that I believe that all non-certified folks in our business are bums. Rather, I was trying to get across my belief that more rules and regulations in our profession would help keep know-nothings ("bums") from getting into the arboriculture profession where they could hurt the trees and (by underbidding and glutting our field) hurt us.

I know there are good people out there without certification, but the certification process certainly does increase one's knowledge base. To deny that is ludicrous.

No worries friend. I know you are not painting everyone with one brushstroke and I appreciate your contributions. Like I said, I refer jobs that do require knowledge or skills I do not have yet to the Trained pro's.

Regardles of whetehr it is school or books or even here on this site, I learn every day of my life. I will work towards certification and plan to sign myself and my partner up for the Arbormaster courses this fall in Ashville, NC.

 

[Pancake]

I look at it as a part of doing business. No, I do not walk lock step with every move they make, and I do believe in field judgement over book learnin' in many cases. However, they (the organizations in question) do provide a good foundation to the learning process. I see memberships and involvement as another tool to say I care enough to be a part of the established industry organizations. I am also a member of several local level tree boards and forestry councils. It is just another step in the learning process- after all it is the "practice" of arboriculture. Unfortunately as with most non profits- it is all about the money.

 

[John464]

But I repeat the only way this kind of stuff will change is members speaking out to the org, and over 19,000 were mute on the last survey. Ranting here does zilch.

ok, so why don't you point this thread and a few others out to them? they should have a representative on each tree message board responding to our industry's concern. Unless I'm mistaken and you are their rep? Member of the ISA or not, many care about the positive and negative impact they are creating, have created, and future outlook they have on the horizon. They need to get back to their original mission statement. If they were more active amongst the public(non member arborists, tree guys, tree hacks, etc) they would have more support and most importantly more education!

I'd like to support a cause that I believe is better for our industry, but at this time I can't support an organization that focuses primarily on finding more ways to a earn a profit and deems anyone a certified arborist solely based on how well their short term memory is.

 

[clearance]

and deems anyone a certified arborist solely based on how well their short term memory is.

Awesome, couldn't have said it any better. There is room for all, wish that those who have never climbed or run a saw much would not tell people how to work.

 

[treeseer]

They need to get back to their original mission statement. If they were more active amongst the public(non member arborists, tree guys, tree hacks, etc) they would have more support and most importantly more education! I'd like to support a cause that I believe is better for our industry, but at this time I can't support an organization that focuses primarily on finding more ways to a earn a profit

Totally agree the focus should change: "Through research, technology, and education promote the professional
practice of arboriculture and foster a greater public awareness of the
benefits of trees."
The best way that this mission can get refocused is for members to get involved. btw I am only a member--one of 20,000. I represent myself, that is all.

and deems anyone a certified arborist solely based on how well their short term memory is.

Not solely, there is an experience requirement. Memory is retaining knowledge, so it's a tool worth developing. I share the concerns about standards of certification--especially ceu's-- weakening just to keep the numbers up. As for members' hypocrisy, I have enough to deal with when I look in the mirror.

 

[Ekka]

It's a shame that for USA arborists their qualifications have to be earned or deemed worthwhile from some private source such as ISA.

Thankfully Europe, Australia, New Zealand that I know of have some consistency and uniformity in their qualifications ... and whether or not you belong to some private org should have little influence on what you know.

I see some of you want to do the Arbormaster training, others get degrees in foresty etc yet some ISA cert holds the flag for tree work.

When a private organisation has the industry by the balls then you need to moan. :hmm3grin2orange:

 

[treeseer]

TreeCo--CA Listing

I went to the treesaregood site and saw only bartlett guys. I thought I'd sent in my info before--highly recommended for all CA's. Here is the reply I got from ISA--

"Thank you for your e-mail. What your going to need to do in
order to list yourself on that website is login under you user name and
password on the ISA website under members only. Then click on Edit find
a Tree Care Service Information. Once your in this click on Add/Edit a
Tree Care Service. Enter in your services then submit them and you
should be listed on that website.

 

[John464]

Not solely, there is an experience requirement. Memory is retaining knowledge, so it's a tool worth developing. I share the concerns about standards of certification--especially ceu's-- weakening just to keep the numbers up. As for members' hypocrisy, I have enough to deal with when I look in the mirror.

experience requirement as what? just because a person works for a tree or landscaping outfit they are considered eligible? They could be in the shop all day and doing maintenance on the equipment. Or just doing sales.

An arborist is experienced through hands on work amongst trees. Long as the applicant lists they are experienced the ISA allows the applicant to proceded with testing. From what I understand there is no background check, they take the applicants word for it?

In my opinion there is no real life arborist/tree guy experience really required. What is really required is that you demonstrate short term memory and you sign issue them a check. That makes someone not only an arborist, but a certified arborist?

cer·ti·fy(sûrt-f)
v. cer·ti·fied, cer·ti·fy·ing, cer·ti·fies
v.tr.
1.
a. To confirm formally as true, accurate, or genuine.
b. To guarantee as meeting a standard: butter that was certified Grade A. See Synonyms at approve.

From what I can see the test itself does not confirm the applicants ability to perform accuracy in arboriculture in the tree itself. Perhaps provide a description of the remedy with two feet on the ground, but can they complete the remedy themself? There are some who can't and that is why I don't understand why the term certified arborist is becoming regarding as a highly qualified.

 

[jonseredbred]

Guy,

I talked to the ISA on the phone this morning.

That listing is free for the first year and then $150. per year after that every year.

The bottom line is the ISA funnels homeowners to the Trees are Good site and at the trees are good site they are only going to be able to find Certified Arborist and their tree companies who pay $150. per year.

Does that sound good to you?

I don't like it. Its looking more and more like the naysayers are right.

Exactly. You nailed it.

 

[treeseer]

Exactly. You nailed it.

I don't know when the year is up, but it seems very wrong to me too. :bang: The question is, how many CA's will speak up on surveys and to their chapter reps etc so they are heard, and how many will just complain on forums and in taverns?

Anyway, one bad policy does not mean the entire organization is no good; it just means we need to change it.

The old debate over handson vs. non is :deadhorse: If you were in a wheelchair you might not be yelling that only climbers are arborists.

 

[treeseer]

I won't be referring people to 'Trees are Good' until this gets settled.

How ya like my sig now?:hmm3grin2orange: