The 50:1 2 Cycle Oil Myth ? "epa"

[richardcranium]

It sounds like the EPA and the manufacturers are out to get us all. They both agree on 50:1 so that you get cleaner emissions, you burn up your equipment quicker, you get to recycle them (ebay), buy new, and start all over again. VIVA EPA we're all winners and losers.

I say we all need to run 100:1 to futher the cause. My "Wildthing" has screamed since new, two days ago.

 

[Lakeside53]

I've lost track of who is being serious and who is not... so in case any new readers are having the same problem.. 50:1 became the suggested ratio for some brands a long time before the EPA got involved..., and before 50:1 it was 40:1.. and before that 32 and before that.. who cares...

 

[spacemule]

Fish , here are the facts I gathered from the replys so far.
The correct oil to fuel ratio for the saw's best longevity wont meet the EPA's Air Emmission Standards for Manufacturers under the current Law now.
So 50:1 is the mixture that passed the EPA's emission's standards and the Manufacturers are required by LAW ! to tell you this. There is a new hurdle coming in 2008 or 2010 from the EPA that requires less emmissions from theses 2 cycles. My guess is that they will thin the oil out of the mixture more and sacrifice engine life. ( this is the easy way out ) I read where they are trying new materials such as ceramics and alloys with carbide impregnation on pistons and cylinders to overcome this issue. I can tell you that there is a new generation motor being used in the UAV's but it is only available to the military for now. But just as in GPS technology eventually we will reap the benefits.

There are the followers who say that 50:1 is good enough for Stihl and its good enough for me ! These are the members with alot of paper ! because they will be using it alot sooner than me. I am sorry I cant drink the Kool Aid that the EPA and the Manufacturers are serving. But that being said , there will still be those who cant see the light even when staring into the Sun.

OUT

What about the fact that Stihl had 50:1 out long before there were any EPA restrictions? How does that fit in with your conspiracy?

 

[richardcranium]

For the record, I'm almost never seriously serious.
There are bullheads out there that are convinced that cars never were right after the took the lead out of gas.
Funny how they, for instance, were ready for rebuilds at 50k, and the new fangled ones routinely make it to 200-300k.
As engines evolve, so do the fluids.
If a manufacturer recommends 50:1, then just do it and shut up.
FWIW, Stihl routinely does testing with up to 100:1 mixes (but what do they really know).

 

[Poley4]

Can any one honestly post here saying that their saw was trashed by running it on 50:1, with the carb adjusted correctly, fresh gas without ethanol and with good quality oil (Mobil 2T, Stihl Ultra, etc.) mixed throughly? Pictures of scored pistons, blue bearings, anybody?

 

[richardcranium]

Can any one honestly post here saying that their saw was trashed by running it on 50:1, with the carb adjusted correctly, fresh gas without ethanol and with good quality oil (Mobil 2T, Stihl Ultra, etc.) mixed throughly? Pictures of scored pistons, blue bearings, anybody?

Of course they can, but, they probably wont show you the dirty air filter, dull chain, clogged fins, or the seperated "fresh mix".

 

[Lakeside53]

What about the fact that Stihl had 50:1 out long before there were any EPA restrictions? How does that fit in with your conspiracy?

I want to know what agency forced the manf to change from 32 to 40:1!:jawdrop:

 

[Lakeside53]

Can any one honestly post here saying that their saw was trashed by running it on 50:1, with the carb adjusted correctly, fresh gas without ethanol and with good quality oil (Mobil 2T, Stihl Ultra, etc.) mixed throughly? Pictures of scored pistons, blue bearings, anybody?

You're making the wall too high... Forget making it only with 2T, Ultra etc... I know many pros that run dino oil 50:1 and get a few thousand hours before top-end rebuilds (just worn out). I do believe the newer full synth oils give a better margin so it will be interesting to see those saws in 5 years time. I've ready seen inside saws run for years on 2T. I'm not even worried about alcohol (keep mix fresh).

You also meant to say running their saw as it was designed - i.e. not milling... which is almost all saws out there.

 

[brncreeper]

I believe 2 stroke dirt bikes are still 32:1, at least my 2003 KDX has a recommended mix of 32:1. There are fewer dirt bikes than chainsaws so maybe that is why they are exempt from EPA stipulations.

 

[Poley4]

You're making the wall too high... Forget making it only with 2T, Ultra etc... I know many pros that run dino oil 50:1 and get a few thousand hours before top-end rebuilds (just worn out). I do believe the newer full synth oils give a better margin so it will be interesting to see those saws in 5 years time. I've ready seen inside saws run for years on 2T. I'm not even worried about alcohol (keep mix fresh).

You also meant to say running their saw as it was designed - i.e. not milling... which is almost all saws out there.

You are correct. I've have in the past run the Poulan-Weedeater oil from Wally World in my saws @ 40:1 without any problems.

 

[Lakeside53]

I believe 2 stroke dirt bikes are still 32:1, at least my 2003 KDX has a recommended mix of 32:1. There are fewer dirt bikes than chainsaws so maybe that is why they are exempt from EPA stipulations.

I thought the epa was closing the noose on them also...

Here's an interesting question: how many hours do you get out of a dirt bike (stock) between rebuilds..?? It's not just oil related, but I figure it's and order of magnitude less... (stock for stock) than a pro saw.

 

[OilHead]

Yepers have to agree. There are some pictures of a cylinder & piston inspection on you know that other site . Using ultra there are no traces of black carbon only a yellowish tinge on the top of the piston with no signs of degration. Cant recall exactually what saw it was Stihl 441 class w/ extensive muffler mod & set at 14,100 rpm.

 

[brncreeper]

KDX 220R rebuilds and mix

Here's an interesting question: how many hours do you get out of a dirt bike (stock) between rebuilds..?? It's not just oil related, but I figure it's and order of magnitude less... (stock for stock) than a pro saw.

That is a good question, mine has low time on it yet and hopefully has a long way to go before a rebuild.
I dug the owners manual out and it says to inspect the piston and rings every 600 miles and replace as necessary.:jawdrop:
So you’re right Lake, apparently they see much more abuse than a modern pro chainsaw and get less time between rebuilds.
The manual gave a recommended lists of oils to use (Castrol TTS was one choice), and a specified mix ratio of 32:1. It also mentioned if none of the recommended oils were available to use 2 stroke racing oil only. No mentioning of synthetics as a requirement, but the 32:1 ratio requirement may explain that.

 

[motosierra]

From my observations most chainsaw engines that fail have been run lean..either straight fuel or an air leak somewhere.. But a good number of engines fail due to a seized ring. And most of the time it is carbon that has caused that ring to seize. Not only is the ring grove plugged with carbon but there is a thick coat on the tope of the pistone and in the exhaust port

I run 50:1.. have done so for the last 33 years and will continue to do so until I am convinced otherwise.

 

[Lakeside53]

That is a good question, mine has low time on it yet and hopefully has a long way to go before a rebuild.
I dug the owners manual out and it says to inspect the piston and rings every 600 miles and replace as necessary.:jawdrop:
So you’re right Lake, apparently they see much more abuse than a modern pro chainsaw and get less time between rebuilds.
The manual gave a recommended lists of oils to use (Castrol TTS was one choice), and a specified mix ratio of 32:1. It also mentioned if none of the recommended oils were available to use 2 stroke racing oil only. No mentioning of synthetics as a requirement, but the 32:1 ratio requirement may explain that.

2500 hours is a reasonable expection bewteen top-end rebuild on a pro saw, but if used for the likes of milling.., way way less... 600 miles.. wow.. at 35 MPH, that's only 17 hours.. O.K., my math and comparisons are suspect, but... my order of magnitude guess seems way off; maybe 2 orders lololl

 

[Highclimber OR]

I have always ran my stihls at 50:1 and have got maximum life out of all of them. Now some friends of mine run different brands and run a 40:1 mix which is fine in stihl saws generally because even if it is too rich you are constantly revving off the excess. Now I have seen it foul plugs on their hedge trimmers because they do not run them at full rev often. As for me I will stick with the 50:1 until something major changes like the life of my saws.

 

[Timber_Hitch]

WOW !!! How many times must it be repeated ! EPA

I want to know what agency forced the manf to change from 32 to 40:1!:jawdrop:

In April 2007, EPA proposed a new emission control program that would reduce hydrobcarbon emissions from small spark-ignition engines by about 35 percent. The new exhaust emissions standards would begin in 2011 or 2012, depending on the size of the engine. The proposal also includes new standards to reduce evaporative emissions from these fuel systems.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/equip-ld.htm

Lakeside !!! can I make this any clearer ! Another comment about who is enforcing the emissions and I will be riding the short bus to work.

 

[PES+]

Big bad EPA

A few notes.

These new proposed rules will only effect the evaporative emissions (IE back to metal fuel tanks and sensible venting schemes)

The EPA has NOTHING to do with muffler noise but in order to meet certain emission levels catalysts may restrict exhaust flow.

The classes that are proposed for further reduction in total emissions (IE exhaust + evaporative) are the smallest of the hand held units since current production units already have achieved these numbers in testing.

(See Honda 4-stroke trimmer and certain other clean 2 stroke topologies)

Get ready for a lot of whining and lawsuits from the chainsaw manufacturers if the EPA presses the proposed rules as NOT ONE of the manufacturers has been able to meet the last phase of the EPA regulations phasing in next year.

(Class III engines large displacement hand held )

They have had over 10 years to deal and have not done very well so it will be interesting to see what happens.
opcorn:

 

[Lakeside53]

)

The EPA has NOTHING to do with muffler noise but in order to meet certain emission levels catalysts may restrict exhaust flow.

yes... It's OSHA that covers noise, and as any saw can be used in the workplace, that pretty much mean all saws (and other OPE). Local juristrictions can require lower noise levels (hense the BR500, and similar low noise models from other manf.)

 

[Lakeside53]

In April 2007, EPA proposed a new emission control program that would reduce hydrobcarbon emissions from small spark-ignition engines by about 35 percent. The new exhaust emissions standards would begin in 2011 or 2012, depending on the size of the engine. The proposal also includes new standards to reduce evaporative emissions from these fuel systems.

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/equip-ld.htm

Lakeside !!! can I make this any clearer ! Another comment about who is enforcing the emissions and I will be riding the short bus to work.

Sorry.. 32:1 to 40:1 occurred in the 80's... and 50:1 has been around since the late 80's/early 90's... yes, TODAY they are responsible for emissions, but they were not the driving force moving from 16:1 to 50:1 over 40 years




My skimming though the 2007 stuff shows that it does not change (from final 2004) hand-held engines emissions.

"The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is proposing exhaust emission standards for marine spark-ignition engines and small land-based nonroad engines. EPA is also proposing new evaporative emission standards for equipment and vessels using these engines.



Small Nonroad Engines

..... We are not proposing new exhaust emission standards for handheld emissions."



The Stihl 441 meets the 72gm/KW hour rules - and that's a 50:1 saw... and meets proposed evaporative rules.