The 50:1 2 Cycle Oil Myth ? "epa"

[smoking440]

oil mix test

I think we should perform a test on two new MS440 saws. Mix one saw with a 50:1 ratio and the other at a 32:1 ratio. Hook into a large fuel supply so they are capable of running for weeks. Hook them both up to a small engine dyno and run them wide open non stop until one of them blows up. We will set both engines the same RPM with a tach. Then do a failure anallisis and we will have better idea whats going on. :greenchainsaw:

 

[spacemule]

I think we should perform a test on two new MS440 saws. Mix one saw with a 50:1 ratio and the other at a 32:1 ratio. Hook into a large fuel supply so they are capable of running for weeks. Hook them both up to a small engine dyno and run them wide open non stop until one of them blows up. We will set both engines the same RPM with a tach. Then do a failure anallisis and we will have better idea whats going on. :greenchainsaw:

What a complete waste of time and money!

 

[Pissfirwillie]

It's not a Mahle factory. Stihl has rarely admitted using Nikersil - they refer to "specially coated/impregnated bores" etc. if you see a cylinder with a tiny "cr" on it, it's not "nikersil" (trademark of Mahle).

I don't mean to sound too stupid here, but are the "Mahle" 046 cylinders essentially nikersil coated, or are they chrome plated? They seem to last a long time as long as you keep a fresh filter in em.

 

[Lakeside53]

I've been "told" by others on AS that if it says Mahle, it's Nikersil.. but...


The most likely answer is "yes", especially in the case of the 046 - fairly old.

 

[Lakeside53]

I think we should perform a test on two new MS440 saws. Mix one saw with a 50:1 ratio and the other at a 32:1 ratio. Hook into a large fuel supply so they are capable of running for weeks. Hook them both up to a small engine dyno and run them wide open non stop until one of them blows up. We will set both engines the same RPM with a tach. Then do a failure anallisis and we will have better idea whats going on. :greenchainsaw:

Won't prove anything unless you change the load (thermally cycle) the saws. Unless you do, with conventional oil they would both load up with carbon quickly, the 32 quicker.


Stihl did something similar with blowers - 500 hour test - but with different oils, not ratios.

 

[goof008]

Why is oil mix such a popular topic?

Because we've already bashed the MS290, talked about the which chain is best, and helped someone pick out a new saw this week. It was the next one up in the rotation!
:hmm3grin2orange:

 

[joecool85]

What it comes down to is that if you take care of your saw and you run any oil (anything from 32:1 - 50:1) you will be fine. I run 40:1 and don't worry about it. I do periodically pull off the exhaust to check and see what I have for deposits. The only thing I've seen that has deposits is one of my dad's craftsman weedwackers, and it is poorly tuned so he had to run it with partial choke lol. I'll need to tune that for him come spring time.

As others have said, it is far more likely to cause carbon buildup from running too rich rather than the ratio of oil you use. Of course if you run 5:1 it might get a wee bit of build up, but assuming you run something reasonable (32:1 - 50:1 like I said before) you'll be fine.

btw, the newer saws probably do have tighter tolerances and better parts etc to make them need less oil, but it is to a certain extent. Old saws ran 16:1 - 32:1, new saws should be in a higher range more like 32:1 - 50:1. The only time it is a problem is when you run NO oil.

 

[PES+]

There are three "types" of 2 cycle oils

Or were until the whole buzz about "synthetics" became all the rage.


The most basic was straight oil with no detergents or additives. These were the oils that demanded high mix ratios and there was no "buzz" about where the base stock came from.....petroleum or plant base.

Then there were the oils with solid lubricants added to the base stocks which included some graphites and certain metallic salts (molys and sulphers) which were meant to help lubricate the engine and then to leave through the exhaust.

This was the type of oil that the Stihl petroleum premix was and likely still is for now.

Echo used this same type with different solids and ratios of additives but they have changed as of late I believe.

If you see gray or black solids in your oil or the oil itself is very dark or nearly opaque this is almost certainly this type of oil.

The third type is an actual plating type of lubricant which will form a thin film on the wear surfaces with use and is often included in the new semi and full synthetic blends.

It is highly advisable to use ratios recommended by the oil supplier for the individual engine involved as more is not only not always superior but can in fact be detrimental.

The new gas everyone has been recently screaming about has been in my area for 15 years and that is a nightmarish problem for old "tried and true" lubrication schemes that just about all the current 2 cycle manufacturers have clung to for god knows why.

The likelihood of damage due to higher than recommended oil ratios is dependent on lots of variables and I can show you some pics of some very advanced chainsaws that were designed to run on low mix ratios that were trashed by the owners not trusting the lower mix ratio that was recommended.

Partners were all speced at 50 to 1 from the late 70s and got bashed up about strongly urging using their brand oil only.

Of course the owners then bought the Partner oil and then would over mix because of what they were used to.

I was there during all the arguing and debate when the jump was from 24 and 32 to 1 down to 50 to 1.

Didn't mean to sound like I was attacking Timber Hitch if I did I apologize.

Welcome to the LOONY BIN here

 

[PES+]

Oh and Nikersil- knickersill

Stihl has done an about face yet again it would appear.

We were told years ago with much beating of corporate chests that Stihl was all nikasil plating because of it's superiority for use in aircooled engines because PORSCHE used it in the most expensive air cooled engine on the road.

Chrome is nasty stuff and expensive to handle responsibly as far as the environment goes.

It is hardly surprising that chrome would return as a plating if there were factories located were regulations are less strict on the materials as it is much easier to use and far cheaper to produce.


I'll let the Stihl Heads edumacate me on the superiority of chrome over nickel silicon carbide blend coatings.

I did use nikasil in a generic sense and it is indeed a trademarked coating and process so I should have made that clear from the start.

Don't want to get Mahle's nickers in a bunch.

Also Andy Cr used to denote chrome but CR did not necessarily mean it but standards change and get stomped on all the time

 

[brncreeper]

Common sense

Go with a 32:1 ratio, oil is cheap… pistons, cylinders, crankshafts, bearings, and connecting rod bearings are not. Too much oil will cause excessive smoking and spark plug fouling. Too little oil will cause engine damage OR premature wear.

 

[GASoline71]

Why is it "common sense" to use 32:1???



50:1 is just fine... if your saw is tuned properly.

Gary

 

[joecool85]

Why is it "common sense" to use 32:1???



50:1 is just fine... if your saw is tuned properly.

Gary

We're all going to have to agree to disagree here I think. I run 40:1 and I probably won't change that for quite a while. Like I said before, it's far more important that you have the saw tuned properly than what ratio oil you are running.

 

[GASoline71]

I agree JC85...

These oil mix threads always turn into a bash-fest anyways...

 

[Poley4]

Go with a 32:1 ratio, oil is cheap… pistons, cylinders, crankshafts, bearings, and connecting rod bearings are not. Too much oil will cause excessive smoking and spark plug fouling. Too little oil will cause engine damage OR premature wear.

Common sense would tell me not to use too much or too little, but to use what the manufacturer recommends. Are they not the ones with the high dollar engineers who get paid big bucks to figure what is best for their machines with the oils available at the time? So why would we, the end user, think that we need to second guess what they have, I'm sure with extensive studies, already proved in the laboratory what works and what doesn't? If you are going to spend your hard earned money on a top of the line chainsaw like a Stihl or Husky and you trust them to engineer, manufacture, and assemble it correctly, then why wouldn't you trust them to know what it's lubrication requirements are? Instead some would rather follow traditions or listen to old wives tales rather than common sense!

 

[brncreeper]

Common sense would tell me not to use too much or too little, but to use what the manufacturer recommends. Are they not the ones with the high dollar engineers who get paid big bucks to figure what is best for their machines with the oils available at the time? So why would we, the end user, think that we need to second guess what they have, I'm sure with extensive studies, already proved in the laboratory what works and what doesn't? If you are going to spend your hard earned money on a top of the line chainsaw like a Stihl or Husky and you trust them to engineer, manufacture, and assemble it correctly, then why wouldn't you trust them to know what it's lubrication requirements are? Instead some would rather follow traditions or listen to old wives tales rather than common sense!

how can less oil make bearings last longer?:monkey:

 

[spacemule]

how can less oil make bearings last longer?:monkey:

How can more than the correct amount of oil make them last longer? Do you put 8 quarts of oil in your 5 quart truck? After all, oil is cheap, engines aren't. The danged epa won't let them call for 8 quarts. Use a little common sense and make sure she's lubed up real goot!

 

[Lakeside53]

How can more than the correct amount of oil make them last longer? Do you put 8 quarts of oil in your 5 quart truck? After all, oil is cheap, engines aren't. The danged epa won't let them call for 8 quarts. Use a little common sense and make sure she's lubed up real goot!

A fool and his oil are soon parted.

 

[Lakeside53]

how can less oil make bearings last longer?:monkey:

maybe.. just, maybe.. cos' there will less less carbon to grind on them? na.. The issue is more with piston rings and heat transfer.

 

[brncreeper]

I thought it was the oily bird gets the worm?:monkey:

 

[Lakeside53]

I thought it was the oily bird gets the worm?:monkey: