Top Saws For Ground Use Or Homeowners?

[bigjayfromwa]

I Am Selling For A Stihl Dealer And I Dont Feel Comfortable Selling The 192t Or 200t To Homeowners Or People That Are Using Them As Ground Saws. Just From Experience Using Them Up In The Trees. They Seem So Easy To Get A Inexperienced Person Into Trouble Since You Dont Have Any Leverage With Them.
Yet A Fellow Co-worker Sells Them To Lots Of Homeowners For General Use Or For Guys Using Them As Groundsaws.
Just Curious If Its Just Me, Or If Anyone Else On Here See's Where I'm Coming From???

 

[computeruser]

I don't think that you are at all out of line feeling uncomfortable about sending those saws home with homeowners, inexperienced folks, or others who are going to use them on the ground.

This issue has been addressed a number of times and all seem to agree that they are really not well-suited to ground use and, where possible, a rear-handle saw should be used. Though I would not recommend them to someone for use on the ground where other options exist, they are light and convenient and WILL end up being used on the ground for that reason.

If you want to warn customers of the dangers of using these saws on the ground or one-handed or whatever, then by all means do so - providing complete and accurate information is an important part of your job as a salesperson. That way you will have done your part to help the customer make a reasonable, informed decision, whatever that decision may end up being.

 

[Mr_Brushcutter]

In the UK there sales are regulated by trading standards and the HSE. You need to have passed the training to be able to buy one. Just point them in the direction of the MS200 exactly the same saw with a handle on the back. Stick to your guns and say that the saw is for trained people only and isn't suitable for there needs and give them the 200.

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

You're right on Jay. They're not for homeowners or ground saws. The problem is that people like the novelty of the top handle. They want it to be light and nimbe so logically (to them) a top handle is what they want. It's like someone who wants a fast and light motor cycle, so "logically" they need some super race bike. No they don't. They're attracted to the novelty and the idea of it, without thinking about it first. It's way too specialized for them. If you, or they have never operated a 200T or any top handle for that matter, look through the threads on any saw forum, and you'll see all the "200T bit me today!" threads. They're monsters for kickback and instability in even experienced hands. Mine is keeping me honest all the time. I'd hate to think of some jackamo homeowner cutting firewood or trimming brush around the house. Good Lord...

The MS200 is still a specialized saw, and more than a homeowner needs, but if he's willing to pony up the $500+ for it (and he doesn't want a 260 for some reason) sell it to him, although he'd be fine off with a 250 for less money and more hp.

Jeff

 

[computeruser]

In the UK there sales are regulated by trading standards and the HSE. You need to have passed the training to be able to buy one.

And this applies to adults, right? Thank goodness that we haven't slipped that far yet here in the US. I cannot imagine having to ask somebody's permission or take a class to buy a chainsaw.

Just point them in the direction of the MS200 exactly the same saw with a handle on the back. Stick to your guns and say that the saw is for trained people only and isn't suitable for there needs and give them the 200.

Great idea, unless for whatever reason they're intent on buying the MS200T, in which case you just lost a sale and a future customer. Tell them what's up with the product and let them make the decision themselves.


On a tangentially related note, part of what drives people to the internet for their purchases is the absense of some salesperson trying to tell them what they need. This may be a small factor, but it does exist.

An anecdote: Last summer I was out of town and had hit a couple nails in an old tree that I was cutting up for my parents' neighbor. I needed to pick up a couple of fresh loops so I could finish the job, so I went into the local OPE dealer and asked for EXACTLY what I wanted - two loops of RS, 3/8", 72dl, .050. The guy then proceeded to quiz me about my qualifications and said that without "credentials" to show that I was a "pro," the only chain he'd sell me was RM2. Is this the direction that we want to go?

 

[sawn_penn]

Stick to your guns and say that the saw is for trained people only and isn't suitable for there needs and give them the 200.

Saying the saw is for "trained people only" is the way to really close the sale! Might as well say "This is a real man's saw, are YOU up to it?"

Better to explain why a top handled saw is bad on the ground and why a rear handled saw is better.

 

[Mr_Brushcutter]

"this is a real man's saw, are YOU up to it?"

Naa thats just to put people off buying the 880.

I agree that saying its a pro saw isn't enough but i feel that its important to say it and then put it into the unsuitable for use on the ground arguement. I think a lot of people get confused with limbing. Here you ofen see threads about limbing and snedding and the 200T i think people get confused about the ground and on rope removal of limbs. I think if you asked what they wanted the saw for and they send snedding a pine in the back garden then a 200 would do the job and they could have a go do leaver mechansim with both saws and find the 200 was much better than the 200T in suitbility of for the job.

 

[spike60]

I've seen this myself. I always get the customer to hold both saws and tell him about the control factor, which is usually obvious at that point.

However if they still want to buy one, I stop preaching and sell it. I figure that I did the right thing by explaining the differences, but I'm not the safety police. I agree with computeruser that we don't need to over regulate everything.

I've been to the UK and love the Brits, but those kind of regulations are excessive. They are way over the top with things like speed enforcement cameras and such.

 

[Mr_Brushcutter]

And this applies to adults, right? Thank goodness that we haven't slipped that far yet here in the US. I cannot imagine having to ask somebody's permission or take a class to buy a chainsaw.

If you look at any UK website selling chainsaws and they have 200Ts or 338s it will say certificate has to be shown on purchace, if you go o a dealer they ask to set the certificate. I know it seems silly but i'm sure its saved a lot of lives and its agaist the law to use them on the ground here. To do any aspect of commercial treework you have to have recived training and certification although you don't need to produce any to buy climbing gear or regular chainsaws.

Funnything is they do cheaper courses where you bring all your own kit and one of these is for chainsaw from a rope and harness.....of course to do this you need a top handled saw, which you can't legaly get till you pass.

 

[danrclem]

And this applies to adults, right? Thank goodness that we haven't slipped that far yet here in the US. I cannot imagine having to ask somebody's permission or take a class to buy a chainsaw.

Just wait around awhile. Some politician that knows nothing about chainsaws will hear about this and think it's a good idea and will have a law passed and charge us for training, testing and then make us buy a permit.

Danny

 

[Rotax Robert]

I think explaining the difference is enough, refusing to sell a top handle is stupid in my opinion and as for having to have a training certificate is way out of line. Not to start a war, but at what age did brushcutter take off the training wheels off his bicycle ? would it not be much safer if they were still on? By the way I sometimes use a 338xpt for limbing and dumping small snags just to make things easy. Push on the tree with one hand and cut with the other. Enough of the safety police already.

Rotax

 

[Jonsered Rep]

I feel that a salesman should be reluctant to sell any top handle saw to a novice user, and be obvious about it. also explaining the possibility's of kickback and loss of control. but in the end give the customer what he wants and let him teach himself.

 

[Lakeside53]

It's interesting that the 015 (top handle version) has been in the hands of homeowners for 25 years... and they still use them.

I agree - no police or rules required; but we (dealers) must take the time to explain the issues and options. If they want to leave the store and drive 60mph in the 30 zone, that's their choice.

 

[sawinredneck]

You're right on Jay. They're not for homeowners or ground saws. The problem is that people like the novelty of the top handle. They want it to be light and nimbe so logically (to them) a top handle is what they want. It's like someone who wants a fast and light motor cycle, so "logically" they need some super race bike. No they don't. They're attracted to the novelty and the idea of it, without thinking about it first. It's way too specialized for them. If you, or they have never operated a 200T or any top handle for that matter, look through the threads on any saw forum, and you'll see all the "200T bit me today!" threads. They're monsters for kickback and instability in even experienced hands. Mine is keeping me honest all the time. I'd hate to think of some jackamo homeowner cutting firewood or trimming brush around the house. Good Lord...

The MS200 is still a specialized saw, and more than a homeowner needs, but if he's willing to pony up the $500+ for it (and he doesn't want a 260 for some reason) sell it to him, although he'd be fine off with a 250 for less money and more hp.

Jeff

Again, Jeff, you are a voice of reason, but ths time I will take acception to you! I am a "weekend warrior" and a fireood cutter and a sometime tree trimmer. Yes, the 170 probably would have worked for me most of the time. But after last winters ice storm and all the time I spent in trees and on roofs doing clean up I realized the qaulities of a top handle saw. Do I need it all the time? Nope. Do I use it on the ground? Yep. Probably not my better judjment, but I chose it due to the fact that I could climb and still use it, minimualy, on the ground as well. I have yet to regret that decision!!!
Andy

 

[clearance]

Stop the Insanity Already

I constantly one hand my ms200 in the tree or on the ground making a trail, cutting stuff out of my way, little snags etc. Why spend more money on a top handle saw when you could buy one with more power for the same price if it will stay on the ground?. This permits, licenses bs is just another reason why I am glad I have lived here since I was four after being born in the UK. But....here in Canada we are already half way to the state nanny/daddy knows best crap you enjoy in the UK. Gun control that gets more controlling every year, can't say anything "hatefull" about homos or minorities or women, or you can be criminally charged. Enough already, besides young doctors need experience stitching people up, scars are more interesting than tattoos anyday, got a few myself. Explain by all means, remember you can't save the world, you can lead a whore to culture but you can't make her think.

 

[sawinredneck]

Clearance my friend, you have just summed it up!!!!! Nonthing more to add there!!
Andy

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

I am a "weekend warrior" and a fireood cutter and a sometime tree trimmer.....I spent in trees and on roofs doing clean up

Weekend warrior though you may claim to be, you climb and you've done the specialized cutting that a top handle warrents, which takes you beyond a typical weekend guy. I'm speaking of the guys that want it simply because of the novelty of it...it's different, it's cool, it's not like their buddy's little saw, so they want it for no other reason. They don't even know it's a climbing saw in the first place.

But like has been said, you can't stop a guy from buying it, just try to steer him in a better direction.

Jeff

 

[046]

a good stiff warning about dangers of top handle usage. if someone stills wants to lay out the cash, then more power to em...

the downfall to that is selling to someone that oviously has no business operating an MS200. even after a proper warning.

 

[coveredinsap]

How's about listing all the purported 'dangers' of top handle saws as opposed to regular chainsaws so we can see what the real difference, if any, is?

Other than the obvious, meaning that a tophandle puts the users right hand/arm closer to the chain, which means they are more likely to put themselves in the path of a kickback, (and they are more likely to use the saw one-handed).....where's the big problem?

I mean, no matter what chainsaw I'm using I try not to stand over the thing so that if/when it does kick, I'm well out of the way.

From what I've read here on the 'injury' forum, most of the injuries with the tophandles are from people one-handing the saw with their off-hand up around and/or above the bar/chain.

 

[fishhuntcutwood]

How's about listing all the purported 'dangers' of top handle saws as opposed to regular chainsaws so we can see what the real difference, if any, is?

It's all about leverage Sap. Put your hands on a tail handle saw, and they're far enough apart to afford you more leverage on the saw, and give you better control. Not just in a kickback situation, but in all situations. Now put your hands on a top handle saw, and you'll see how close they are to each other, and your leverage and control goes out the window (relatively speaking). The other consideration is comfort. The top handle saw puts your right wrist and an aggressive angle when cutting on the ground, whereas the tail model eases that angle, and makes sustained cutting much, much more comfortable.

The difference is significant Sap.

Jeff