TOPPED MAPLES !!!! and willow

[BCMA]

I realize that I’m hitting my head against a brick wall, but here I go anyway. What was the purpose of pruning the tops off of those trees? What was accomplished? How will this tree now respond to this pruning? When making decisions to prune, and how to prune, is there any consideration of the trees physiology; growth hormones; morphology; anatomy; future decay; future maintenance? ...This is what the homeowner wanted- Ok,OK.

I’m sure the person who did this pruning took pride in what he was doing, and probably did the best job he could- I do not want to take away from his effort. But, this type of pruning was unnecessary and will only lead to future problems for the tree, plus increased maintenance and cost. The apical dominance was removed from the tree. The cuts that were made are basically heading (topping) cuts which will lead to excessive suckering at the heading cuts. When you cut back to a horizontal limb, regardless of its size, if the limb is not in the correct position to assume the terminal role, you get suckering. Suckering (water-sprouts) is the trees (or limb) response of losing its apical dominance- and its ability to produce auxin, which suppresses the suckering effect. Auxin is the trees hormone that is produce in the terminal buds to regulate growth. You guys know this. Excessive suckering is also the trees response to damage- either natural damage (hurricane) or man-made damage (topping)(heading).

Also, silver maple is not a good compartmentalizer. It is a soft wood which is more prone to rot than a hardwood maple. The sap and heart wood of the limbs that received heading cuts, heart rot may set in unless the tree has enough vitality to set up a defense system to wall off the pending decay.

We have the science available to provide better tree care. I’m dumfounded why we are not availing ourselves to it, and why much tree care is archaic and barbaric! These trees will never be the same, and will never regain their natural graceful form. The trees will react negatively by having to redirect resource allocation to excessive water sprouts, and compartmentalization of decay.

I do not wish this post to be interpreted as an attack on anyone. I am simply trying to share simple arboriculture science, and share that there is a better way to prune trees, such as maintaining the natural form of the tree and its apical dominance. We should be concentrating on fixing structural problems, and maintaining the natural form of the tree.

Note: I do understand that there are exception to the rule.

 

[treeseer]

...this type of pruning was unnecessary and will only lead to future problems for the tree, plus increased maintenance and cost. The apical dominance was removed from the tree. The cuts that were made are basically heading (topping) cuts which will lead to excessive suckering at the heading cuts.

:soapbox:

Tim I'll be generous and assume you have no silver maples in MT. Look again--those were reduction cuts in the second post, and topping cuts in the first. Get the standards and look it up, or see page 23 of the BMP's. If you still think heading = topping then think again, preferably with an open mind.

Dan you made those 2" cuts with a :greenchainsaw: ? Incredible.

 

[D Mc]

Guy, Tim's in Idaho. Idaho, the OTHER Mecca of Arboriculture.



Dave

 

[treemandan]

I realize that I’m hitting my head against a brick wall, but here I go anyway. What was the purpose of pruning the tops off of those trees? What was accomplished? How will this tree now respond to this pruning? When making decisions to prune, and how to prune, is there any consideration of the trees physiology; growth hormones; morphology; anatomy; future decay; future maintenance? ...This is what the homeowner wanted- Ok,OK.

I’m sure the person who did this pruning took pride in what he was doing, and probably did the best job he could- I do not want to take away from his effort. But, this type of pruning was unnecessary and will only lead to future problems for the tree, plus increased maintenance and cost. The apical dominance was removed from the tree. The cuts that were made are basically heading (topping) cuts which will lead to excessive suckering at the heading cuts. When you cut back to a horizontal limb, regardless of its size, if the limb is not in the correct position to assume the terminal role, you get suckering. Suckering (water-sprouts) is the trees (or limb) response of losing its apical dominance- and its ability to produce auxin, which suppresses the suckering effect. Auxin is the trees hormone that is produce in the terminal buds to regulate growth. You guys know this. Excessive suckering is also the trees response to damage- either natural damage (hurricane) or man-made damage (topping)(heading).

Also, silver maple is not a good compartmentalizer. It is a soft wood which is more prone to rot than a hardwood maple. The sap and heart wood of the limbs that received heading cuts, heart rot may set in unless the tree has enough vitality to set up a defense system to wall off the pending decay.

We have the science available to provide better tree care. I’m dumfounded why we are not availing ourselves to it, and why much tree care is archaic and barbaric! These trees will never be the same, and will never regain their natural graceful form. The trees will react negatively by having to redirect resource allocation to excessive water sprouts, and compartmentalization of decay.

I do not wish this post to be interpreted as an attack on anyone. I am simply trying to share simple arboriculture science, and share that there is a better way to prune trees, such as maintaining the natural form of the tree and its apical dominance. We should be concentrating on fixing structural problems, and maintaining the natural form of the tree.

Note: I do understand that there are exception to the rule.

I would assume that if you took your first sentence and your last sentence and combined them you would stop beating your head agaisnt the wall.

it is true though, while I was picking out a poem for this post Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap was one of the titles I was thinking of using.

"TNT, Cyanide, HIGH VOLTAGE! ARRRRRRG!

 

[tree MDS]

Hey Now! :greenchainsaw:

Sorry slvr, lol. Those trees are just a pita to TD sometimes.

Dan, what did you have a rocket pack to get them tops?

Not too shabby, but I could have done that without the dog ears.

Maybe.

 

[treemandan]

Sorry slvr, lol. Those trees are just a pita to TD sometimes.

Dan, what did you have a rocket pack to get them tops?

Not too shabby, but I could have done that without the dog ears.

Maybe.

I have a rope ladder, I did not use it here though and it was detroyed in the oil spill.
The ladder is just some climbing line with a foothold. The foothold is the rope threaded through a short peice of plastic electical conuit to keep the hole open. Just toss the tail up through and back down, tie it off at a lower level so you can get it out when done and walla, you got it easy then. You install this before you are even in the tops. Its better than standing on those little branches you are try to save BUT in this case, again, no rope ladder. It good to use when there is nothing else to support yourself as well.
I left the dog ears cause they couldn't really be cut better with in the timeframe I had to do the job. I wasn't really beatin it up nor was I getting beat up. I don't cut nothing til I know I have good control. most cuts I make were below my head. All these trees are the same job just 2 house next to each other. It was 2 full days now that I talked to one of the guys with me when it was done. The willow was a mess. Very hazzardous. The gulley was wet with standing water and we had to get everything out. The tops were completly dead, there, but dead. I also didn't want to land anything on the trees i had just prunned... topped I mean.
I was trying not to shock em(the maples), I was. The first one was a little severe but in all essence it was the best place to cut like that on that tree... if you were going to cut like that. About a third was taken out of that one.
When I got there "someone" reached up as far as they could from the ground and said " Right about here". I exhaled a cloud of smoke and said " NO"

 

[BCMA]

:soapbox:

Tim I'll be generous and assume you have no silver maples in MT. Look again--those were reduction cuts in the second post, and topping cuts in the first. Get the standards and look it up, or see page 23 of the BMP's. If you still think heading = topping then think again, preferably with an open mind.

Dan you made those 2" cuts with a :greenchainsaw: ? Incredible.

Tim I'll be generous and assume you have no silver maples in MT.

I’m pretty sure that there is a silver maple or two in Mt., and I’m positive there are SM’s in ID. To the chagrin of many, SM’s are one of my favorite large shade trees. They can be absolutely magnificent! Particularly if they are trained right by correcting a few developmental structural problems early in their life.

Look again--those were reduction cuts in the second post, and topping cuts in the first.

With all due respect- to you and the person who did the pruning, a large majority of the pruning cuts I would classify as heading cuts ( there are some cuts I would regard as “deduction cuts”). A proper reduction cut is where the branch leader is reduced back to a lateral branch which has both the size and the form (position) to assume the terminal role. If this branch is able to assume the terminal role, suckering will be at a minimum, if existing at all. If the branch is reduced back to a horizontal limb; a downward limb; too small of a limb; a limb not in the correct position; profuse suckering at the pruning cut and possibly along a horizontal limb will reform the crown. The sucker growth will be accelerated, and depending on the amount of reduction, the tree will be the same size in one to three years. This time with a much denser exterior crown formed with poorly attached sucker growth attached to rotting heartwood.

Get the standards and look it up, or see page 23 of the BMP's. If you still think heading = topping then think again,

I went to my pruning file and found out that my ISA pruning guidelines is outdated (1995). I have added the pruning BMP’s to my list to pick up next week as well as several other educational items to maintain a complete complement of resources from the ISA and TCIA. Great stuff!

The best definition of a reduction cut I could find came from Arboriculture, Intergraded Management of Landscape Trees, Shrubs, and Vines, (fourth ed.) by you know whom. This book states (and my experience teaches me),… ”However, thin to a lateral…because little or no stub should be left and the plant responds as it would to other thinning cuts” (emphasis mine) pg. 340. The writer continues, “The lateral to which a branch or trunk is cut should be at least one-third the diameter of the cut being made in order to assume the terminal role” (emphasis mine) pg. 340-341.

According to these pictures, many of the lateral branches that the tops were removed to will not be able to assume the terminal role, and the ensuing sucker growth is sure to out-grow the laterals. This response is consistent with a heading cut. This is why it is important for arborist to understand some tree physiology, growth hormones, and be considerate of how the tree will respond to a particular type of pruning, or even individual pruning cuts. We should be cognoscente of the effects of our work. For every action…there is a re-action.

preferably with an open mind.

I do hope I have an open mind to learn new things and explore new ideas. One of my joys in life. I observed some interesting things about lichen today as I was out in the great northwest forest pursuing Odocoileus virginianus.

The original intent of my post is to emphasize that many times we prune tree in a manner that is unnecessary. I did not notice a height restriction to justify a reduction cut. This pruning will certainly not increase the trees vitality and will lead to future maintenance, cost, and possibly the decline of the tree. Trees don’t like to have their heads cut off any more than we do!

I would like to complement the climber in going as high as you did, and not cut it at a lower height. That is admirable.

Oh…one last thing…I sure would like to see our industry move away from MONEY being the motivation factor in tree work. I know we can promote BETTER tree care and make BETTER money doing it right! Prune for structure, natural form, and the health of the tree.

 

[1I'dJak]

if treework is your job, then, ultimately money is your motivation....unless you're idley rich and can turn down most of your work and not worry about mortgages and car payments...if you care that much about trees then build your house with mud and straw, wipe your bum with reuasable towels, and write on wax tablets cuz the trees that make up these products are the ones that need caring for, not some crappy silver maple in some little old ladies' yard who would feel much better if they were hackracked....I like to do good treework, and advise against crappy prunining, but where i live, if I went by proper bcma style treecare, I'd pick up very little work....

 

[treemandan]

if treework is your job, then, ultimately money is your motivation....unless you're idley rich and can turn down most of your work and not worry about mortgages and car payments...if you care that much about trees then build your house with mud and straw, wipe your bum with reuasable towels, and write on wax tablets cuz the trees that make up these products are the ones that need caring for, not some crappy silver maple in some little old ladies' yard who would feel much better if they were hackracked....I like to do good treework, and advise against crappy prunining, but where i live, if I went by proper bcma style treecare, I'd pick up very little work....

See? I know you didn't mean that ALL silver maples were crappy... just some in old lady's yards.

 

[1I'dJak]

maybe some aren't so crappy...I think that was a good job Dan...balancing what the HO wanted and what was best for the trees...

 

[treemandan]

maybe some aren't so crappy...I think that was a good job Dan...balancing what the HO wanted and what was best for the trees...

Many of them are pretty crappy. It hard to really do the right thing. You do what you can, if you could do more you would.

 

[BCMA]

if I went by proper bcma style treecare, I'd pick up very little work....

Excuse me...did I hear you correctly in that if you provided proper tree care you would have very little work...uh? Is our industry so sick that arborists have to ruin trees in order to put bread on the table? Is this the level of our professionalism? Do we not have any pride as professional arborists to provide science based tree care? I’m sorry, but we do not have to compromise a single standard set forth by our industry associations to be profitable. Our clients and society should expect this of us, and we as an industry ought to demand it.

 

[treemandan]

Excuse me...did I hear you correctly in that if you provided proper tree care you would have very little work...uh? Is our industry so sick that arborists have to ruin trees in order to put bread on the table? Is this the level of our professionalism? Do we not have any pride as professional arborists to provide science based tree care? I’m sorry, but we do not have to compromise a single standard set forth by our industry associations to be profitable. Our clients and society should expect this of us, and we as an industry ought to demand it.

Have you done much climbing?

 

[BCMA]

Have you done much climbing?

Yes. I climbed for about 18 years. I’ve been a professional arborist for 23 years. I am no longer climbing due to a bad back from tree work. Unfortunately, I even have a hard time pruning with loppers or climbing ladders anymore. I spend most of my time on business issues, keeping up on arboriculture research, training materials, and wasting time on this dumb website.

Actually, I have enjoyed this website. I've learned some things, and it has given me a greater understanding of the pulse of arboriculture outside of my little world. Unfortunately, there are things I see that I do not like or agree with. I think our industry can be much better that it is, and we all need to realize this and work together to make it better. I have tried to address some of my concerns in a gracious manor (sometimes not:agree2: ).

I wish not to criticize anyone personally. But, as I see things that serve to drag our industry down, such as non-adherence to BMP in pruning, I feel compelled to say something in hopes someone might start to think about things, and move to a higher road in their practice of arboriculture.

Hey, I used to top trees also when I first started- and did not know better. I stopped topping trees when one of my jobs ended up on the evening news as “what not to do to a tree.” It was one event on the evening news that caused me to stop topping and look for a better way. That was 1987. I did not hear about the ISA, NAA, or any other association until 1991. My profession has progressed because of a simple attitude that I wanted to learn and do it right. If I can do it, so can everyone else…even Nails!

BTW, I’m 5’4”, 120 Lbs., and wear coke-bottle glasses!

 

[treeseer]

if treework is your job, then, ultimately money is your motivation.

According to Karl Marx, maybe. Money is good, but ultimately my motivation is not merely to buy stuff, but to leave the world a better place for my kids. I mean, if you want to get philosophical, that's it. Unless you have found a way for your camel to pass through the eye of a needle.

I went to my pruning file and found out that my ISA pruning guidelines is outdated (1995).

Holy Guacamole, Man! :jawdrop: You pontificate here at every turn, yet your hymnal is from the last millennium? Time to move to that pew in the back. O and the best definition of a reduction cut is in Gilman's Pruning Guide...don't tell me you missed that one too...

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Actually, I have enjoyed this website. I've learned some things, and it has given me a greater understanding of the pulse of arboriculture outside of my little world. Unfortunately, there are things I see that I do not like or agree with. I think our industry can be much better that it is, and we all need to realize this and work together to make it better. I have tried to address some of my concerns in a gracious manor (sometimes not ).

What I like about the site is that there are the rough and ready types along with the more "learned", though we have lost a greater number of the latter due to the rougher nature of the board then some of the others out there.

I enjoy it when you see the former types start to come around to tree care vs tree cutting. The guys who are truly "cut it any which way, if it dies in a few years we can make it on the removal too" usually leave a little later then the good guys do.

I have noticed that has been another thinning of the ranks lately.

As an aside, I can remember the heat I git at the ISA site shortly after is first started for playing Devils Advocate for spiking trims on thick bark large trees. So many of the good guys would spout the dogmatic response that "spiking is BAD!!!"

They would not have a a rational argument past that as to why, if your gaff does not penetrate the cambial layer. I wanted to know why , but I was the bad guy for taking the other side of what should not have been a debate. It went so far as getting some cold shoulders and sneers at conventions for a year or two. (which i found funny, there were enough people to talk to that all i had to do was turn around to find someone else...)

It took me several years to get to the answer that Phelogen extends far into the bark and wounding can create decay courts

Anywho, I think blind adherence to dogma is nearly as bad as proud ignorance when it comes to professionalism.

 

[treeseer]

Anywho, I think blind adherence to dogma is nearly as bad as proud ignorance when it comes to professionalism.

:agree2: Let's hope your words reach Idaho.

"“Fifth, under which species of this tree genus was a religion founded? And finally, how many stages of Awakening are there, according to this faith, and what is its central dogma? You have as much time as your companions take to remove the vines from this tree.”
Can Dendro solve this complex case in time to earn his way to Maui? Turn to page XXXX to find out.
I finished writing and smiled. “No need to wait for them to finish, Rumi. I’m already all ready. ...
“Buddhism was founded under the bo tree, which was aptly named Ficus religiosa. There are six stages of Awakening—it delights me to see Codit navigate these—and, as it is in arboriculture, the central dogma of Buddhism is that **all dogma is useless.”**

taken from the attached, with permission.

 

[Nailsbeats]

My profession has progressed because of a simple attitude that I wanted to learn and do it right. If I can do it, so can everyone else…even Nails!

BTW, I’m 5’4”, 120 Lbs., and wear coke-bottle glasses!

What? Even me? I'm dumbfounded.

 

[pdqdl]

So far, I'm liking this thread.

Treeseer & BCMA at each other throats? Who would have thought it possible?

opcorn:


I gotta agree with BCMA. What was the point in knocking off the tips of the tree? They are just going to pop right back out.

Dan: spectacular effort getting to the tops, especially if you did that without spurs. Those pic's don't look like there was enough wood to throw a rope over, much less trust to hold your weight.

I have to wonder how the customer was served, though. If they wanted the tree slaughtered, and I couldn't talk them out of it, then I would have just slaughtered the tree. At least then they would have gotten their money's worth.

It looks to me like you work VERY hard to not really do what the customer wanted, while not doing the tree much good, either. I guess the customer & the tree both benefited from not having somebody else butcher the tree?

 

[Nailsbeats]

That's why you just do what they want if you can't tell them different. That way at least one party benefits. Sorry, I don't turn down work unless the customer is shady. The trees, well, they're always shady.