TOPPED MAPLES !!!! and willow

[pdqdl]

I don't turn down work either.

On the other hand, I seem to be lucky. So far, I've never topped a tree. I don't even know the proper methods for producing a "hat rack", although I can guess.

 

[Nailsbeats]

We differ on this point.

It's a damn shame to do that to a tree, money or no money!

That's fine Treeco, I hope we can still be friends. I don't like it either, but it's not my property and I respect that.

The whole situation is 2 sided (proper vs property owner), many think it can be cut and dried/ black and white, but it's not. I look at a tree and think of what I would do, then here what the customer wants, and then am told what to do from my boss. So all I can have are my opinions, and sometimes you are told to shove them.

Believe it or not, I do my best to persuade for doing it right, ( I have a pretty good handle on what "proper" is) but I'm not gonna walk away like a child when I don't get my way. I know that 90% of treeguys out there know exactly where I'm comming from.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Nice John, I think the exact same way. Middle ground my man, you have to find middle ground.

 

[jomoco]

I'm a cantankerous old school SOB who has turned down lots of work based on the customers attitude alone, much less whether he wished to follow my recommendations as an arborist.

Personally I prefer commercial work any day of the week because they take my advice seriously based on past experience and word of mouth.

Residential work is alot like playing russian roulette in my opinion.

When in doubt just walk away.

jomoco

 

[Nailsbeats]

Of course we can still be friends!

Oh good TreeCo, cause you are my last one, lol. No, really...................

 

[BCMA]

Holy Guacamole, Man! :jawdrop: You pontificate here at every turn, yet your hymnal is from the last millennium? Time to move to that pew in the back. O and the best definition of a reduction cut is in Gilman's Pruning Guide...don't tell me you missed that one too...

[/QUOTE]

Ya, I know. I could not refer to Gilman because I have the book out on loan.

So far, I'm liking this thread. Treeseer & BCMA at each other throats? Who would have thought it possible?

We're not at each other throats, we're just doing this for entertainment!

Anywho, I think blind adherence to dogma is nearly as bad as proud ignorance when it comes to professionalism.

Agree. There are too many variables in nature to be dogmatic. We always need to be willing to change.

Would you believe that I had a crew out a couple of weeks ago "topping trees?" Yep, you heard correctly. It is a tool in my toolbox that I need to bring out occationally- very seldom. But, I do have this tool (topping, heading) and there are a few situations that it is called for. A couple of examples is vista pruning, storm damage repair, and a few cases of hazard reduction.

Nails...I still like ya!

 

[Nailsbeats]

Nails...I still like ya![/QUOTE]

Yeah, but I think a friendship has to work both ways! lol. I couldn't resist the setup, it was perfect.

I'll take that as an admission of guilt too! lol.

 

[treeseer]

But, I do have this tool (topping, heading) and there are a few situations that it is called for.

O man, here we go again. Topping (using internodal cuts without regard for tree health or structure) does NOT = heading (reduction to a bud or small lateral)! Buy and read ANSI 2008, please! The attached 2003 piece quotes the 2001 version; even back then heading was sometimes OK while topping never is.

No I am not at your throat, but I'll aim elsewhere if you confuse those two pruning methods again!! :bang:

Okay i'll be nice now.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Everybody quiet now.......MDS is lurking.........he'll tell us how to do it.

 

[BCMA]

That's fine Treeco, I hope we can still be friends. I don't like it either, but it's not my property and I respect that.

The whole situation is 2 sided (proper vs property owner), many think it can be cut and dried/ black and white, but it's not. I look at a tree and think of what I would do, then here what the customer wants, and then am told what to do from my boss. So all I can have are my opinions, and sometimes you are told to shove them.

Believe it or not, I do my best to persuade for doing it right, ( I have a pretty good handle on what "proper" is) but I'm not gonna walk away like a child when I don't get my way. I know that 90% of treeguys out there know exactly where I'm comming from.

Consider this...it's not so much the property I'm concerned with, it's my reputation as a professional arborist. I do not want to be associated with "hack jobs." There have been very few jobs I have lost due to my unwillingness to do something "wrong". I can think of one job I simple refused to do because of what they wanted done. It was the removal of a specimen tree that was based on faulty information. The tree still stands.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Consider this...it's not so much the property I'm concerned with, it's my reputation as a professional arborist. I do not want to be associated with "hack jobs." There have been very few jobs I have lost due to my unwillingness to do something "wrong". I can think of one job I simple refused to do because of what they wanted done. It was the removal of a specimen tree that was based on faulty information. The tree still stands.

Consider this, I work for someone, it's not my call or reputation. Another thing, how do you get a bad rep when clients go around town raving about your work and how you treated them. We have the best rep around, which is why we have work, we can do it anyway you want it.

BTW, you kind of caught me off guard, not like MDS, I see him comming a mile away.

 

[rbtree]

Consider this...it's not so much the property I'm concerned with, it's my reputation as a professional arborist. I do not want to be associated with "hack jobs." There have been very few jobs I have lost due to my unwillingness to do something "wrong". I can think of one job I simple refused to do because of what they wanted done. It was the removal of a specimen tree that was based on faulty information. The tree still stands.

Exactly. I've also had a few of those, where nothing ending up being done, based on my recommendations.

IMO, it should be our responsibility to be stewards for the trees as much as possible. We can do this by attempting to educate the customer as to what should be done and why. I've had great success with this.

Just last night, I met with an 82 yr old queen of a lady, on her birthday. She's the mom of a skiing friend, who had referred her to me after our local co with the horrible reputation had door knocked. They had the audacity to say that a healthy 110 foot douglas fir was dangerous, could fall, and needed $1000 worth of thinning and then would be safe and wouldn't fall over. AS if!!They call their work "centering' and "balancing", in reality they send their guys up on gaffs, instructed to gut everything they can reach with a chain saw---which, of course, is lions tailing and makes branches more likely to fail as they continue to grow at the tips, and does nothing to reduce windthrow chances. Then, they also said a young 50 foot western redcedar (which was exhibiting normal flagging) was also dangerous and needed $1000 thinning.

This disreputable company is the only one that I will continue to tell the truth about, to anyone, including them themselves.

So, i did sell a $650 prune on the fir, mostly a bit of thinning, lightening, and end weight reduction on the long heavy limbs. It is right next to the garage. And nothing on the cedar, since she didn't care about wanting more light to the garden.

 

[BCMA]

O man, here we go again. Topping (using internodal cuts without regard for tree health or structure) does NOT = heading (reduction to a bud or small lateral)! Buy and read ANSI 2008, please! The attached 2003 piece quotes the 2001 version; even back then heading was sometimes OK while topping never is.

No I am not at your throat, but I'll aim elsewhere if you confuse those two pruning methods again!! :bang:

Okay i'll be nice now.

Okay, you're right. I concede. "Topping" was used as a loose incorrect term. The trees were "headed" back to a branch union. Small diameter reproduction ponderosa pine as thick as dog hair. The stand was thinned to reduce competition, and headed to a branch union to maintain a three million dollar view. The other option was to "basal prune" the whole stand of trees and expose the highway.

 

[tree MDS]

Everybody quiet now.......MDS is lurking.........he'll tell us how to do it.

Stop baiting me nails. I dont really care what other people do, just me and my little biz, dig it?

If and when I have to prune I try and take pride in my work, its in my blood
and I cant really help it.

No I wont hatrack if they want it, thats just me. Call some of the other
crackheads around here is what I feel like saying, lol.

Peace nails, and long live the facecord, lol.

 

[BCMA]

Exactly. I've also had a few of those, where nothing ending up being done, based on my recommendations.

IMO, it should be our responsibility to be stewards for the trees as much as possible. We can do this by attempting to educate the customer as to what should be done and why. I've had great success with this.

Just last night, I met with an 82 yr old queen of a lady, on her birthday. She's the mom of a skiing friend, who had referred her to me after our local co with the horrible reputation had door knocked. They had the audacity to say that a healthy 110 foot douglas fir was dangerous, could fall, and needed $1000 worth of thinning and then would be safe and wouldn't fall over. AS if!!They call their work "centering' and "balancing", in reality they send their guys up on gaffs, instructed to gut everything they can reach with a chain saw---which, of course, is lions tailing and makes branches more likely to fail as they continue to grow at the tips, and does nothing to reduce windthrow chances. Then, they also said a young 50 foot western redcedar (which was exhibiting normal flagging) was also dangerous and needed $1000 thinning.

This disreputable company is the only one that I will continue to tell the truth about, to anyone, including them themselves.

So, i did sell a $650 prune on the fir, mostly a bit of thinning, lightening, and end weight reduction on the long heavy limbs. It is right next to the garage. And nothing on the cedar, since she didn't care about wanting more light to the garden.

Evergreen, right???

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Another thing, how do you get a bad rep when clients go around town raving about your work and how you treated them. We have the best rep around, which is why we have work, we can do it anyway you want it.

BTW, you kind of caught me off guard, not like MDS, I see him coming a mile away.

It may be the difference in being in a Podunk backwater of a village imitating a city, and being in a high end exurban area where there is a population of informed consumers.

I give your Dad (ol'mange) credit for an initial attempt at not taking any money "I'd leave it alone".

My first reaction is to talk them into a standard prune, maybe a tad on the heavy side, explaining how topping cuts will create decay in the long term. How adventitious sprouts grow fast and may have a tendency to break off in high winds. How the maintenance cycle is shorter and messier yadda, yadda, yadda

Then I will try to get a drop crotch and lateral reduction, so there is some structure left in the tree.

My last suggestion, on smaller trees, is to basal cut and allow natural regeneration.

I've walked from jobs that were not good for the tree or the client in the long term, and I have added disclaimers to agreements stating that this is what they wanted, it added more risk then it mitigated and that they were responsible for any yada, yadda, yadda, yadda

It does depend on if I am needing the money and if they cannot afford a full removal and cannot sleep with tree over the house.

 

[Nailsbeats]

Stop baiting me nails. I dont really care what other people do, just me and my little biz, dig it?

If and when I have to prune I try and take pride in my work, its in my blood
and I cant really help it.

No I wont hatrack if they want it, thats just me. Call some of the other
crackheads around here is what I feel like saying, lol.

Peace nails, and long live the facecord, lol.

Right on. It's in my blood to do things right/perfect, just that it isn't my call. It sucks at times but that's life for now.

 

[tree MDS]

Right on. It's in my blood to do things right/perfect, just that it isn't my call. It sucks at times but that's life for now.

Thing is It'll always be that way if you dont take steps to become a non
hatracker buddy. Again, not that I really care.

Prunning to me seems like the art of doing less often times, smaller cuts,
fighting to climb over sprouts rather than just stripping the tree out etc.
I actually busted out the handsnips on some big trees this year, it was
horrible actually, lol.

 

[Nailsbeats]

It may be the difference in being in a Podunk backwater of a village imitating a city, and being in a high end exurban area where there is a population of informed consumers.

I give your Dad (ol'mange) credit for an initial attempt at not taking any money "I'd leave it alone".

My first reaction is to talk them into a standard prune, maybe a tad on the heavy side, explaining how topping cuts will create decay in the long term. How adventitious sprouts grow fast and may have a tendency to break off in high winds. How the maintenance cycle is shorter and messier yadda, yadda, yadda

Then I will try to get a drop crotch and lateral reduction, so there is some structure left in the tree.

My last suggestion, on smaller trees, is to basal cut and allow natural regeneration.

I've walked from jobs that were not good for the tree or the client in the long term, and I have added disclaimers to agreements stating that this is what they wanted, it added more risk then it mitigated and that they were responsible for any yada, yadda, yadda, yadda

It does depend on if I am needing the money and if they cannot afford a full removal and cannot sleep with tree over the house.

Yes you are right, it's all small town around here. Most people aren't running golf courses in their front yards. And also right about my Dad, he tells them the truth never tries to "sell" anything. We run on word of mouth so people call us. Mostly hardcore self reliant people, that want what they want.

You have to understand the folks around here. Most people in town are people that sold their farms and moved in for retirement. Big city people don't last around here, because their big city ideas and money doesn't fit in. Everybody knows everybody and it's relationships that matter. Close knit, where property's are handed down from generation to generation.

 

[tree MDS]

Yes you are right, it's all small town around here. Most people aren't running golf courses in their front yards. And also right about my Dad, he tells them the truth never tries to "sell" anything. We run on word of mouth so people call us. Mostly hardcore self reliant people, that want what they want.

You have to understand the folks around here. Most people in town are people that sold their farms and moved in for retirement. Big city people don't last around here, because their big city ideas and money doesn't fit in. Everybody knows everybody and it's relationships that matter. Close knit, where property's are handed down from generation to generation.

Whats that? Podunk, lol.