Topping over a house - Video - Feedback requested on how to improve.

[beastmaster]

I some times when catching a small top high up in a skinny tree, will slash cut it so it goes over really slow, I'm talking 6 in. or less. lots of times the top is pointing downward and its still hasn't come loose, and I finish it off with my hand saw.

 

[murphy4trees]

I some times when catching a small top high up in a skinny tree, will slash cut it so it goes over really slow, I'm talking 6 in. or less. lots of times the top is pointing downward and its still hasn't come loose, and I finish it off with my hand saw.

Thatmkaes sense, but not something you can get away with on big tops..

 

[Zale]

Thatmkaes sense, but not something you can get away with on big tops..

What if you have a really big handsaw?

 

[KenJax Tree]

I try to learn little things from all you guys but i will never use any of Murph's advice just watching his videos im surprised he hasnt hurt himself or someone else yet.:msp_scared:

 

[beastmaster]

Thatmkaes sense, but not something you can get away with on big tops..

I hope someone doesn't try this with a big piece, it could really be dangerous. Your in effect peeling it most the time even on small tops. A big piece could really pin you to the tree if it peeled down over your safety, it could also go in any direction. That technic is used only on small tops and when your a little nervous 90 ft up in a skinny wobbly Pine. Not that I ever get nervous 90ft up a skinny wobbly pine. Ha

 

[pinemartin]

By "taller" notch do you mean open face, that is wider... If so that is exactly wrong.. early separation is the way to reduce sway, meaning a narrow humboldt... once the piece starts moving, the more it goes, the more force it's going to put on the stem..[/QUOTE



you are toataly right murph what a dumbass I am, after careful research I can see that the proper way is early separation where you jump the top 8 feet off the side of the stem with a lot of slack in your rigging line so it can shake the hell out of ya when it comes taut. Your method may work good for you over there in skee town but the guy was asking for suggestions on different ways of topping a tree with out getting beat up and that is what I gave him. By the way a ''taller'' notch is a conventional notch that is opened up greater than 45deg. so it has time to close before breaking the holding wood...

 

[NCTREE]

the only time i use skinny notches is when im bombing the top so it lands flat utherwise its a 45er or greater. Use a skinny notch when your catching a top and guarantee your gonna get rocked.

 

[treevet]

If I had morons with alcohol on the jobsite for groundmen like you do, I would leave some stubs under the cut as a lowering device and lower/feed myself and have virtually no swing at all. Done it a million times. If there was an open spot at the base I take up a 15 to 20 foot ;piece and just leter her go when appropriate. No Murphy's laws in effect on my jobs.:msp_smile:

What is up with filming through a slit?

 

[ddhlakebound]

It seems that many here don't fully understand how a stem loads up to start a bull ride.

As a top starts to move from the hinge up, the equal and opposite reaction is in the stem below the notch, being pushed backward from the felling direction as the top moves. When the face closes and hinge breaks, a bent stem (loaded) is going to equalize violently with you on it. A stem which hasn't been fully loaded, or a stem that's been loaded and unloaded as the face closes is going to equalize gently, sometimes barely even noticeable.

Shallow angle notch, good, early release and little stem loading.

45ish degree notch, bad, near maximum stem loading.

60ish degree open face, good, stem has already moved back and forward to near vertical again (unloaded) when the top comes free.

90ish degree open face, bad, stem has moved back then came past vertical to fully loaded again when the top breaks free.

The height and diameter of the stem below the notch are important variables, and equally, the height and mass of the top above the notch. Also the thickness of the hinge and type of wood are critical to whether the top breaks the hinge easily (no extra loading) or with difficulty (pulling the stem towards the top and loading)

The vid Reg posted yesterday in "Whadya do today" is a great example of skilled topping cuts (and lots of them) with minimal stem loading each and every time.

 

[treevet]

while professor ddh and doctor murph may postulate on the significance of the notch me thinks the weight of the piece and the distance it falls before it is engaged by the line and hits the complete bottom of its fall (tip straight down) ...lessened to whatever degree by a lowering device, is what will make a noob rattle around like toad in a blender. If there were no lowering line or lanyard attached to the piece THEN the notch would be a bigger issue.

 

[ddhlakebound]

me thinks the weight of the piece and the distance it falls before it is engaged by the line and hits the complete bottom of its fall (tip straight down) ...lessened to whatever degree by a lowering device, is what will make a noob rattle around like toad in a blender. If there were no lowering line or lanyard attached to the piece THEN the notch would be a bigger issue.

Can't argue with that.....

But I wasn't professing that the notch angle was more important to not getting rag dolled than the mass of the chunk and the rope/rigging system was, only what's going on loading up the stem before the rope is engaged.

 

[treevet]

Can't argue with that.....

But I wasn't professing that the notch angle was more important to not getting rag dolled than the mass of the chunk and the rope/rigging system was, only what's going on loading up the stem before the rope is engaged.

seems like there would have to be awful unlucky timing for the two events to happen in conjunction in a neg way. almost seems like the detachment movement could even luck into dampening the shock load of the piece?

 

[ddhlakebound]

seems like there would have to be awful unlucky timing for the two events to happen in conjunction in a neg way. almost seems like the detachment movement could even luck into dampening the shock load of the piece?

Yes, I agree that the breakaway can magnify or dampen the coming shock, depending on the location and direction of movement of the spar when the hinge snaps.

This fella takes a big top on a leaner and loads the stem big time.....If he'd have tried to catch it this one would have been an epic rag doll.

Tree Removal -- Hang on! - YouTube

Everybody has seen this one, but I don't know whether to say he's awful unlucky, or just got screwed by his groundie dropping it ten feet then stopping it quick. But his pre loading the stem, and the timing of the big shock magnified forces pretty well on this one.

tree cutting gone wrong - YouTube

I was looking for the one where the guy gets launched from the limb when the rigging line breaks like he was shot from a giant slingshot....anybody got a link?

 

[no tree to big]

Yes, I agree that the breakaway can magnify or dampen the coming shock, depending on the location and direction of movement of the spar when the hinge snaps.

This fella takes a big top on a leaner and loads the stem big time.....If he'd have tried to catch it this one would have been an epic rag doll.

Tree Removal -- Hang on! - YouTube

Everybody has seen this one, but I don't know whether to say he's awful unlucky, or just got screwed by his groundie dropping it ten feet then stopping it quick. But his pre loading the stem, and the timing of the big shock magnified forces pretty well on this one.

tree cutting gone wrong - YouTube

I was looking for the one where the guy gets launched from the limb when the rigging line breaks like he was shot from a giant slingshot....anybody got a link?

first one I think woulda gone a bit better if he was using the appropriate size saw for the cut maybe something 50cc opposed to the probably 192t he was using... also cutting a big top on a leaner is totally different then taking a big top on a vertical tree it reacts much different

ya forgot to post the one of AA getting rag dolled Pine Tree in Powerlines - YouTube

 

[Scrat]

All I can Say to AA'S video is WOW and WOW and WOW steel core lanyard, metal extension thingy, one hand Cowboy to the max...not sure but I think I heard him yell 'Yipee Kyyy Yayyy' when he blew that top out, and face shield and ear muff....WOW

 

[murphy4trees]

while professor ddh and doctor murph may postulate on the significance of the notch me thinks the weight of the piece and the distance it falls before it is engaged by the line and hits the complete bottom of its fall (tip straight down) ...lessened to whatever degree by a lowering device, is what will make a noob rattle around like toad in a blender. If there were no lowering line or lanyard attached to the piece THEN the notch would be a bigger issue.

That is pretty obvious that the weight of the piece is going to make a lot of difference... Distance it falls also important, but probably not as important as the amount of stretch in the line, and the amount of line in the system. Fall factor is more important than mass!

 

[murphy4trees]

tree cutting gone wrong - YouTube
It would be nice if we all had great groundies running the lines at all times.. since we don't, a little ride should be expected.. in both the above vid and the AA vid, the ride wasn't as much of a problem as the body positioning.. If they had been braced and ready for the ride, it wouldn't have been a big deal.. Get rid of those stubs.. you don't want to take one the face or balls..

 

[beastmaster]

I seem to always get to work with inexperienced groundies. Often times I have to use plan B on a take down, cause plan A takes a sharp ropeman. I like having another climber down on my ropes, they can anticipate more or less what I am doing. That being said, has anyone any experience with Dynasorb rigging line? I am going to get a 5/8 line of it just for those situations when I'm working with a green crew.
When I was first learning this trade I skidded a big top out of a pine growing throu a deck, the foremen kept telling me lower, lower. when that top started sliding down the tree bent like a fishing pole.,the tree would straighten up then bend again as the top bounced it's way down. That was the scariest thing that ever happened to me in a tree. Getting rag dolled catching a piece is just painful and embarrassing not so much scary, plus it over kind of fast.

 

[QuadL-matty]

like sombody said earlier go work for a reputable company under an experienced climber and the knowledge will come. tree work takes time to become good at it. everybody started from the ground and went up. also nobody seems to mentioning the v-notch.....could be something there........

 

[JanThorCro]

Another thought

In the video of AA getting rag dolled in the Pine Tree, I happened to watch it about 10 times. It seemed to me that the guy on the Pull Line (NOT the lowering line), continued to pull on the Pull Line LONG after the tree top had begun to lever over into a falling motion.

Looks like the lowering rope finally got tight when the piece was 8' away from the tree. Is it normal for the piece being lowered to get that far away from the spar?

In doing this didn't he pull that mass of weight further from the tree and increase the force of the tree top swinging back at the tree like a battering ram./?

Am I reading this right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKjL3XTrv44&list=UUaaT_qAfDa8u2flhJ7rV6Ig&index=5&feature=plcp