Tree Damage From Crop Spraying

[TNTreeHugger]

If "herbicide residues in crops would be quite low," then why is the new growth continually affected weeks after initial contact?

Answer is:

"Unlike 2,4-D, dicamba is highly translocatable, even at low exposure doses (Figure 3). Dicamba applied as one- or two-spray droplets to a given leaflet can easily move to young leaflets developing at main stem nodes above that dicamba-impacted leaflet node. In fact, this translocation ability can lead to dicamba-induced leaflet-cupping injury in upper young leaflets that were not even directly exposed to dicamba spray droplets because the very young leaf primordia at the stem apex were tightly enclosed by older developing leaflets that provided protection from same-day applied spray droplets. This developmental succession of nodal leaf development is why easily translocatable dicamba can induce injury in leaflets located at several successive main stem nodes, and why it is an effective dicot weed-killer at higher doses."
https://cropwatch.unl.edu/2018/understanding-growth-regulator-herbicide-injury

 

[TNTreeHugger]

So, the fact that a tree is putting out new growth is NO indication that the tree is recovering, or even will.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

For comparison...
These are volunteer veggie plants that came up from seed that didn't sprout in last years containers.

When I worked up that flowerbed (lily of the valley), I dumped all the soil from last years containers in there, and I did notice a small seed at that time. Looked like a cantaloupe seed.
I worked that area on March 27 and on April 12 the lily of the valley had grown about 6."
Spraying occurred 10 and 17 days after that, and I don't think the seeds had sprouted yet.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

No cucumber! That's a spaghetti squash!!
Saved the seed from one I bought at Wallyworld.

 

[JTM]

I wouldn’t worry about it. They’ll bounce back.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

I wouldn’t worry about it. They’ll bounce back.

I hope you're right.... but some are looking pretty bad..
Still, waiting on the final report. What it says will set my mood and course of action.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Things keep on getting worse... the violets between end of house and carport, where my container garden was...


On the positive side... I discovered some more volunteer plants that came up where I had cucumbers last year. I'm guessing that's what these are. I watered them well and will keep an eye on them. They look good now, but I can see some discoloration on a few of the leaves. Hopefully it's not enough to kill the plant.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Question:

@ 1:24:34 he's talking about what the plant uses energy for... the auxins are produced in the terminal buds and communicate to the roots to grow more roots...hormones are the vital communication in plants, from top to bottom.
Then @ 1:38:35 he gives this phenomenal explanation of photosynthesis; how the tree carries water from the roots to the leaves via the xylem, how the water molecule is split when it meets the chloroplast, the hydrogen fixes to the co2 and makes glycose and the oxygen is expelled into the atmosphere - the hydrogen in water is what's used for photosynthesis.

Then there's this...

Plants need an energy source to grow. In growing plants, photosynthates (sugars produced by photosynthesis) are produced in leaves by photosynthesis, and are then transported to sites of active growth where sugars are needed to support new tissue growth. During the growing season, the mature leaves and stems produce excess sugars which are transported to storage locations including ground tissue in the roots or bulbs (a type of modified stem). Many plants lose leaves and stop photosynthesizing over the winter. At the start of the growing season, they rely on stored sugars to grown new leaves to begin photosynthesis again.
https://organismalbio.biosci.gatech... release,translocation, or movement of sugar.
So, here's my question: if a synthetic auxin herbicide is absorbed by every leaf on a tree, as in drift, or volatilization and those leaves are distorted and damaged enough to disrupt photosynthesis to the point where glucose production is inadequate to feed the tree and yet, at the same time the growth regulating herbicide is forcing the tree to uncontrollably put out new growth, which is also deformed, and all the trees glucose/energy is being wasted in this process of sending energy to non-productive leaves instead of being transported to the roots, will this not inevitably result in death of the tree?

If there are no healthy mature leaves produced in the summer, and no excess energy is stored in the roots to over-winter, how will there be any new growth come the next growing season??

The size of the tree would make no difference in the result since a larger tree has more leaves causing more damage over a larger area - more points of entry - and a smaller tree would likely just die quicker.

Idk if I'm right, just wanting some feedback.

 

[ATH]

It is all about dose. Does the tree process those synthetic auxins and resume normal operation before or after it dies?

 

[ATH]

Well, not after it dies...but can it resume normal before it does

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Well, not after it does...but can it resume normal before it does

And that's one question I've yet to find the answer to: For how long does the synthetic auxin regulate a trees growth? If it's a synthetic hormone, how would it leave the tree? Natural hormones don't leave the tree, do they?

 

[ATH]

And that's one question I've yet to find the answer to: For how long does the synthetic auxin regulate a trees growth? If it's a synthetic hormone, how would it leave the tree? Natural hormones don't leave the tree, do they?

It would be metabolized. Think, for example alcohol in a human body. It is a poison. The body behaves oddly while it is in the system, but the body eventually metabolizes it and resumes normal operation.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

It would be metabolized. Think, for example alcohol in a human body. It is a poison. The body behaves oddly while it is in the system, but the body eventually metabolizes it and resumes normal operation.

??

The synthetic auxins include the following herbicide families: benzoic acids, phenoxycarboxylic acids, pyridine carboxylic acids, and quinoline carboxylic acids that act similar to that of endogenous plant auxin. Auxin Transport Inhibitors such as diflufenzopyr, however, inhibit the movement of auxinic compounds out of cells. Consequently, when combined with a synthetic auxin herbicide such as dicamba, the dicamba can move into the cells but cannot move back out of the cell, thus maintaining a greater concentration of the auxinic herbicide within the cell. Diflufenzopyr has minor herbicide activity when applied alone but enhances the activity of auxinic herbicides.
https://herbicidesymptoms.ipm.ucanr.edu/MOA/Synthetic_Auxins/
Injury from high concentrations of Auxin Inhibitors may change fruit size, shape, and appearance or cause abortion of fruits. Slight auxin herbicide symptoms, however, may have no effect on fruit maturity. Exposure to high concentrations of auxin herbicides may also delay fruit ripening when plants are severely affected. For example, delayed maturity from exposure to high 2,4-D concentrations may exist in a grapevine for one to three years before normal ripening returns.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Here's an article co-authored by the guy I talked to on the phone...
https://www.tnstate.edu/faculty/ablalock/documents/Interpreting Herbicide Damage in the Nursery1.pdf
I've read this contradicting information more times than I can count -

"If you suspect herbicide damage to ornamental plants or crops, it is important to take immediate action because chemicals are continuously degraded by the environment and metabolized by the plant. "
AND...
"Phenoxy-based herbicides mimic auxin, which are naturally occurring plant growth regulators (PGR) found in plants. At normal levels, plant-derived auxins yield normal plant growth and development. When auxin levels are elevated, for example by treatment with synthetic herbicide derivatives, uncontrolled cellular growth will occur. In essence, spraying a synthetic auxin on a broadleaf plant flood the cells with a PGR mimic causing the plant to “grow itself to death” by exhausting energy resources."

Both statements can't be true.

 

[ATH]

....

Injury from high concentrations of Auxin Inhibitors may change fruit size, shape, and appearance or cause abortion of fruits. Slight auxin herbicide symptoms, however, may have no effect on fruit maturity. Exposure to high concentrations of auxin herbicides may also delay fruit ripening when plants are severely affected. For example, delayed maturity from exposure to high 2,4-D concentrations may exist in a grapevine for one to three years before normal ripening returns.

all about dose

 

[ATH]

Here's an article co-authored by the guy I talked to on the phone...
https://www.tnstate.edu/faculty/ablalock/documents/Interpreting Herbicide Damage in the Nursery1.pdf
I've read this contradicting information more times than I can count -

"If you suspect herbicide damage to ornamental plants or crops, it is important to take immediate action because chemicals are continuously degraded by the environment and metabolized by the plant. "
AND...
"Phenoxy-based herbicides mimic auxin, which are naturally occurring plant growth regulators (PGR) found in plants. At normal levels, plant-derived auxins yield normal plant growth and development. When auxin levels are elevated, for example by treatment with synthetic herbicide derivatives, uncontrolled cellular growth will occur. In essence, spraying a synthetic auxin on a broadleaf plant flood the cells with a PGR mimic causing the plant to “grow itself to death” by exhausting energy resources."

Both statements can't be true.

why not?

1 ppm will have a different impact on the plant than 1000 ppm (I don't know damaging numbers, honestly - but I know those scales are large enough to act differently). If the level of PGR is low enough that the plant can metabolize it or it is otherwise broken down in the environment before it causes too much excessive growth the plant survives. If there is so much PGR on the leave that it continues acting before it is broken down, then the plant dies.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

why not?

1 ppm will have a different impact on the plant than 1000 ppm (I don't know damaging numbers, honestly - but I know those scales are large enough to act differently). If the level of PGR is low enough that the plant can metabolize it or it is otherwise broken down in the environment before it causes too much excessive growth the plant survives. If there is so much PGR on the leave that it continues acting before it is broken down, then the plant dies.

Maybe, maybe not... not if 1 ppm has the potential to cause killing damage. 1,000 ppm would just be over-kill.
And, is that 1 ppm being applied to a single leaf, or ten thousand leaves on a single tree?

Your "1 ppm" made me think of how much fluoride is permitted in municipal water... and I see definite similarities here.
They say, 1 ppm is a safe level for human consumption. However, what is glossed over is, 1 ppm for who and for how long? Is that 1 ppm safe for a five pound infant drinking 16 ounces of water/day, or is that safe for a 250 pound construction worker drinking three gallons/day?
There is also the accumulative effects of that acceptable amount to consider.

I don't want to go off on the fluoride issue, but I think the questions of "acceptable amount" and "accumulative amount" also apply to synthetic auxins in trees.
The growth regulators act at the cellular level and have a detrimental impact on the entire tree, not just the leaves. Don't they?

How is applying these synthetic auxins to a tree any different that genetically modifying a soybean to make it resistant to Round-up... but in reverse?

I found this article... the first paragraph went over my head, but it looks like it might be interesting.
Maybe you can decipher it? I'll read it tomorrow.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4362085/

 

[TNTreeHugger]

Holy hell, they're using 2-4-DP synthetic auxin to ripen fruit quicker.
https://agris.fao.org/agris-search/search.do?recordID=US201300954169
https://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/18144

 

[ATH]

Maybe, maybe not... not if 1 ppm has the potential to cause killing damage. 1,000 ppm would just be over-kill.
And, is that 1 ppm being applied to a single leaf, or ten thousand leaves on a single tree?

Your "1 ppm" made me think of how much fluoride is permitted in municipal water... and I see definite similarities here.
They say, 1 ppm is a safe level for human consumption. However, what is glossed over is, 1 ppm for who and for how long? Is that 1 ppm safe for a five pound infant drinking 16 ounces of water/day, or is that safe for a 250 pound construction worker drinking three gallons/day?
There is also the accumulative effects of that acceptable amount to consider.

I don't want to go off on the fluoride issue, but I think the questions of "acceptable amount" and "accumulative amount" also apply to synthetic auxins in trees.
The growth regulators act at the cellular level and have a detrimental impact on the entire tree, not just the leaves. Don't they?

How is applying these synthetic auxins to a tree any different that genetically modifying a soybean to make it resistant to Round-up... but in reverse?

I found this article... the first paragraph went over my head, but it looks like it might be interesting.
Maybe you can decipher it? I'll read it tomorrow.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4362085/

1ppm on one leaf...if the same amount was applied to ten thousands leaves would become 0.1 ppb

1ppm of floride in water is 1ppm. the 5# infant isn't going to drink the same amount as the 250# construction worker so, in theory, their exposure is similar. EPA looks at how much would they expect somebody to consume and they base their "safe" levels off of that.

Regarding the beans...apparently, you haven't come across articles about dicamba-resistant GMO soybeans, have you? I'm not real excited about those because of - well, this entire thread! Dicamba is going to cause more off target damage than glyphosate ever did. It is going to be via volitilization, so they will say "we can't know whose fault it is" and nothing will change except more dead trees.

 

[TNTreeHugger]

1ppm on one leaf...if the same amount was applied to ten thousands leaves would become 0.1 ppb

1ppm of floride in water is 1ppm. the 5# infant isn't going to drink the same amount as the 250# construction worker so, in theory, their exposure is similar. EPA looks at how much would they expect somebody to consume and they base their "safe" levels off of that.

Regarding the beans...apparently, you haven't come across articles about dicamba-resistant GMO soybeans, have you? I'm not real excited about those because of - well, this entire thread! Dicamba is going to cause more off target damage than glyphosate ever did. It is going to be via volitilization, so they will say "we can't know whose fault it is" and nothing will change except more dead trees.

I think I get your drift on the ppm. But, that still doesn't take into consideration the accumulation of fluoride that never leaves the body.

I don't think we've determined yet if the synthetic auxin ever leaves the tree, have we? Or for how long the tree experiences the effects of the synthetic after application? Like interference with photosynthesis this spring reducing the amount of energy stored for next years new growth preventing the tree from growing enough leaves to generate enough energy to sustain it?

Don't you think that's exactly what eventually kills a tree sprayed with the synthetic auxin - low energy produced year one (no mature leaves to produce it), low stores of energy over the winter, and come the following spring not enough energy to produce enough mature leaves, resulting in a snowball effect of steady starvation and decline to the point of death?

Yes, on the Dicamba-resistant beans, I have read that.