BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh, no! Nobody is offended. I was just providing some background for that thread for you.
Trenching through oak roots
- Thread starter Sara
- Start date
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Sara
ArboristSite Lurker
Cool, BlueRidgeMark!
By the way, there's been a little lull in the trench digging around here, because of the holiday. Although the heavy equipment has been parked right at our property line the whole time. So I expect work to resume (on the adjacent property) bright and early in the morning. It's been suggested to me that I watch them pretty closely, because they might get a crew out there that's not aware of the agreement to wait until my husband gets home to dig on our property....
Hey, I'll keep you all posted on how things develop, if you're interested.
Helpful hints and tips continue to be welcome.
Thanks a million!
By the way, there's been a little lull in the trench digging around here, because of the holiday. Although the heavy equipment has been parked right at our property line the whole time. So I expect work to resume (on the adjacent property) bright and early in the morning. It's been suggested to me that I watch them pretty closely, because they might get a crew out there that's not aware of the agreement to wait until my husband gets home to dig on our property....
Hey, I'll keep you all posted on how things develop, if you're interested.
Helpful hints and tips continue to be welcome.
Thanks a million!
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
treeseer said:
You southenerns sure are a strange lot!
Are you in a pessimistic mood or something, they might live and blow over down the track.
Are you saying that they'll trench, then closer to the tree build a some more or something? What a road?
Need some lines drawn on a bigger picture.
Eric, have you expanded the thumbnails? We're talking about structural roots getting cut by this trench, no matter what happens after.Ekka said:
Not pessimism but practicality. Short-term, the trenching will increase risk of toppling. Long-term, the tops will die and leverage will decrease and so will toppling risk. then it will shed branches, and insects and disease finish the job.
Sorry to hear that we are so late in the game. If you own to the centerline, you may want to install a fence to prevent incursion. There's a book on Reducing Infrastructure Damage by tree Roots, and another, Trees and Development. Your consultant should be referring to these.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Oh I see, nice big picture.
So the trench is going between the ditch and the trees.
Be OK if they tunnelled etc.
But a flat out backhoe excavation ... kiss it goodbye.
Shame, really nice looking trees.
Surely the cost of compensation would be more than tunneling?
They could just cross the road go past and cross back too.
Around these parts the works people dont see trees ... they have a unique vision, it's the shortest straighest and quickest route.
I also think that if these trees get saved they should be nominated for protection ... sure would be a shame to have put up the fight to have a future owner cut them down. Over here we can nominate trees for protection.
Hey Treeseer, you do a lot of pruning and are speculating about dressings.
Well I got one for you, do a test, dress some wounds and not others and watch the difference over the years. straight after the cut apply vegemite. It's that good that they invented sliced bread for it! :hmm3grin2orange:
Seriously, try it.
I dont do enough pruning and rarely go back to the same house over and over so it's hard for me to test it.
So the trench is going between the ditch and the trees.
Be OK if they tunnelled etc.
But a flat out backhoe excavation ... kiss it goodbye.
Shame, really nice looking trees.
Surely the cost of compensation would be more than tunneling?
They could just cross the road go past and cross back too.
Around these parts the works people dont see trees ... they have a unique vision, it's the shortest straighest and quickest route.
I also think that if these trees get saved they should be nominated for protection ... sure would be a shame to have put up the fight to have a future owner cut them down. Over here we can nominate trees for protection.
Hey Treeseer, you do a lot of pruning and are speculating about dressings.
Well I got one for you, do a test, dress some wounds and not others and watch the difference over the years. straight after the cut apply vegemite. It's that good that they invented sliced bread for it! :hmm3grin2orange:
Seriously, try it.
I dont do enough pruning and rarely go back to the same house over and over so it's hard for me to test it.
BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
Vegemite? Are you trying to KILL that tree?
:hmm3grin2orange:
:hmm3grin2orange:
Sara
ArboristSite Lurker
Ekka - Yeah, we figure they'll be paving the road for the developer fairly soon. In which case, they'll have to widen it, again putting our trees at risk. So we have our work cut out for us.
Treeseer - Perhaps I'll try to get a hold of those books. I'm not a professional, but I sure am interested in trees. And in our situation, the books might be useful to have lying around.
Meanwhile, I'm waiting to hear from the arborist... and doing some research at Town Hall....
Treeseer - Perhaps I'll try to get a hold of those books. I'm not a professional, but I sure am interested in trees. And in our situation, the books might be useful to have lying around.
Meanwhile, I'm waiting to hear from the arborist... and doing some research at Town Hall....
Books are available at www.isa-arbor.com. your town's staff should have them, so if you buy them maybe they will buy them from you.
Ekka, I only know Vegemite from the Men at Work. not sold here. I experiment with shellac as a sealant but dunno bout soy protein. Sounds like :spam:
Standard town prctice is to run all over current residents to make room for more, then make them pay higher taxes. I am encouraged that you are not one to let that happen to you. Thanks for the ASCA the Arborist reference--I didn't know they had that feature. There's a short list with some good experience on it, so I asked them a question too. I am waiting to see what my ASCA cohorts have to say...
opcorn:
Ekka, I only know Vegemite from the Men at Work. not sold here. I experiment with shellac as a sealant but dunno bout soy protein. Sounds like :spam:
Standard town prctice is to run all over current residents to make room for more, then make them pay higher taxes. I am encouraged that you are not one to let that happen to you. Thanks for the ASCA the Arborist reference--I didn't know they had that feature. There's a short list with some good experience on it, so I asked them a question too. I am waiting to see what my ASCA cohorts have to say...
opcorn:zzrjohn
ArboristSite Member
Sara said:
Those trees are way to nice to damage or possibly lose, hope you win your battle...
If all else fails.........
You could always welcome them Hillbillie style..................
Rockingchair on the porch, 12 Gauge, 500 Cartridges............
...... 
trees4est
ArboristSite Member
I gotta say, moving would probably be better than tunnelling, if they can get far enough away. Some time down the road they might have to repair the lines, and then they would have to dig. Tunnelling is great when it's the only option, though. From the pictures, I'd have to agree with Treeseer about it pretty much dooming the trees, especially the elm. They look like fantastic trees, really would be a shame to lose them if they could reasonably work around them.
The advice has been good, get an appraisal, politely put up a stink, do what you gotta do. Thank goodness you even thought to do something.
The advice has been good, get an appraisal, politely put up a stink, do what you gotta do. Thank goodness you even thought to do something.
Sara
ArboristSite Lurker
treeseer said:
And I am encouraged that there are people out there, online, all over the world, who give freely of their time, experience, caring, humor.
.png "Love :heart:")
This situation is at once heartening and maddening.I suspected there was a trail of shady dealings leading to the events of the last few days. My interview today with the county judge - among other things - has confirmed that.
Tomorrow, I'm seeing a lawyer and hoping the consulting arborist contacts me (they seem to be few and far between around here). Time, energy, money: they hope you don't have enough of it to take them on.
They never count on love (in this case, for our magnificent trees) being a part of that equation, though; and there's an endless supply of that. It can be a great finder of resources. I bet it trips them up.
zzrjohn: My husband's gonna like your way of thinking!
BTW, Ekka - Why does treeseer call you "Mr. non-burger"? Vegemitarianism?
Oh, and our public works people, like yours, are true visionaries; especially when there's a developer behind the scenes kicking back $$$.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
I think the non burger thing comes from the avatar in my sig ... But I'm a ferocious meat eater, steaks, snags, schnitzels, sausages ... everything except SPAM! :biggrinbounce2:
You ought to see what developers do to trees around here, it's a crime but hey, the local law allows it. :hmm3grin2orange:
And what are the "powers" to be doing about it, the organisations that supposedly care for trees and sometimes arborists? A big fat stinking sweet bugger all, in fact, I'm one nut cased video equiped mad man out to kick some ass ... and guess what you'll find?
Grubs within the industry, council and developers all greasing each others hands, a boys club!
I'm so pissed off I am withdrawing from our association here and to hell with the lot of them, there'll be sap on the walls of town hall when I bust a few more grubs ... I'm hunting and the camera doesn't lie.
You ought to see what developers do to trees around here, it's a crime but hey, the local law allows it. :hmm3grin2orange:
And what are the "powers" to be doing about it, the organisations that supposedly care for trees and sometimes arborists? A big fat stinking sweet bugger all, in fact, I'm one nut cased video equiped mad man out to kick some ass ... and guess what you'll find?
Grubs within the industry, council and developers all greasing each others hands, a boys club!
I'm so pissed off I am withdrawing from our association here and to hell with the lot of them, there'll be sap on the walls of town hall when I bust a few more grubs ... I'm hunting and the camera doesn't lie.
Sara, I'm surprised to hear that a judge would talk to you. How did that go?
Below is a report I did for a landowner whose trees were raped by a builder who blatantly broke the rules, but no enforcement happened. The local paper is now looking into it. Names deleted to protect the guilty.
ASSIGNMENT
On May 30, 2006 Mrs. asked me to review town documents regarding the development, and check the accuracy of the claims that the work on that site in regard to the trees followed the town’s requirements and the UDO.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Trees on the property were damaged after a fence was moved, before a fence was installed, and again during a trespass. The cost of curing the damages is $2,970.00. The Town of can assess a penalty of $40,000.00, plus the cost of restoring the damaged trees.
OBSERVATIONS
It is understood that UDO 8.1 may not strictly apply, because the low density does not call for Resource Conservation Areas (RCA’s). I refer below to UDO 8.2, Landscaping…, and especially to the site plan that was approved by the Town Planning Commission and the Town Council. Please refer to the numbers on the attached site plan, to more easily follow along with the listing below.
Western Border
1. Grading was done before the property line was surveyed and flagged. I spoke with surveyor about the exact location of property line bordering the property. Mr. told me that the corner pipes were located, but the property lines were not marked. On the site plan, the Town’s instructions were to “Have your surveyor flag the property line adjacent to buffers and other protection areas, and flag the protection limits.” before grading.
Staff properly recognized the neighbor’s residential property as a protection area. Staff required protection limits to be fenced.
2. Developer removed the fencing along the Annunziata’s western border that was mandated, inspected and approved by Town staff. The protection area was then graded, removing and critically damaging the roots of the neighbor’s trees, including a landmark persimmon tree and a very large pine tree.. The area disturbed is approximately 13’ x 120’, or 1560 square feet.
Northern Border
3. Grading was done before any protection fencing was installed. Fill dirt was applied on an area 14’ x 75’, on the s northern border inside the fence location. Total area disturbed, over 1050 square feet. “Disturbing these areas may result in penalties as much as $20.00 for every square foot of encroachment up to a maximum penalty of $40,000.” UDO 8.2.3 C) 1) 1560 + 1050 = 2610 square feet x $20/square foot = $52,200.00. It seems that JVI could be fined the $40,000.00 maximum financial penalty that the Town of can levy for these violations.
4. The town required that the development’s main road be stopped short of the Annunziata property line. Instead, their excavation went right up to the line, pushing back the fence that divides the properties. It dug out soil four feet deep less than four feet away from a 22” diameter pine tree, causing it to become a hazard to fail For reference, see the information in UDO 8.1.3 D) 4), “Cutting more than 30% affects the health of the tree, and cutting over 40% affects the tree’s stability”2. We observed protruding roots of ten of the ’s tre’s torn off within their Critical Root Zone.
INVENTORY OF NEIGHBOR’S TREES WITH CRITICAL ROOT ZONE DAMAGE
Species Diameter” 4.5’ above grade Distance’ from trunk to cut
Quercus alba, White oak 8 7 TRESPASS--TOTALED
Liquidambar styraciflua, Sweetgum 14 12
Pinus taeda, Loblolly pine ** 22 ** ** 4 ** HAZARDOUS
Liquidambar, Sweetgum 6 4.5
Quercus alba, White oak 6 3.5
Liquidambar, Sweetgum 15 4
Quercus alba, White oak 7 5
Cornus florida, Flowering dogwood 6 3
Nyssa sylvatica, Tupelo 5 1
Quercus rubrum, Red oak 8 5
TOTAL: TEN TREES 97 Diameter Inches
5. On the first tree on the above list, the machinery trespassed by reaching over the line and tearing two primary branches off a white oak tree belonging entirely to the Annunziatas. Because the line was not marked, it is not clear whether the grading company is responsible for the trespass. The two branches comprised more than half of the tree’s total crown, so it could be considered a total loss. To date, no criminal complaint has been filed regarding this trespass.
6. The area to the east of the road is designated as a sewer easement, so staff did not require protection fencing there. Fill dirt was spread over the area. Nothing in the UDO was cited as a reason why this area did not receive any protection. Given the size of the easement, the line could be offset installed in a way that provides for the neighbor’s trees to be preserved.
“SAVE” TREES WITHIN
7. One dying white oak along Road is designated as a “save” tree on the site plan approved by the Town. The protection fence is only 5' away from this 28" dbh tree, and roots have been removed and damaged within 7' of the trunk. There are several sizeable dead branches in the crown and a severe infection on the same side of the trunk as the root damage. This “save” tree is dying due to the developer’s failure to follow the town’s tree preservation guidelines.
The UDO calls for inch-for-inch replacement for “save” trees that are not saved, so it seems that 28” of replacement trees could be planted if this one does not survive. s landscaper agreed to forward a plan to work on improving this tree’s chances, but this work has not commenced.
8. Another large white oak to the north has a tupelo tree right next to it. These trees are also designated “save” trees, but their fencing is also less than 5' away. They have lost roots from grading all around, even though they are also marked for protection on the Town's approved site plan. There is no evidence of care taken for their survival, so their future is uncertain.
9. Two oaks in the middle of the development were not designated on the site plan to be saved, but Mr. stated that he wanted to save them. The grading for the sidewalk tore up the roots of the largest one, so its survival is doubtful. I mention this out of due diligence because if it is left without any action taken to increase its stability, it may be a hazard to workers on the site and future homeowners. The smaller oak may survive, if steps are taken to protect it.
REACTIONS BY : The Town required to submit a tree management plan by a Certified Arborist, to mitigate the damage done after fences were removed. first submitted a plan drawn up by their uncertified landscaper. Then they resubmitted the same plan on the letterhead of an individual whose certification lapsed last year due to failure to keep up with his continuing education requirements. It was only after the neighbor checked these fraudulent credentials that complied with the Town’s instructions by finding an ISA Certified Arborist who would sign off on the plans.
SUMMARY
This is not a comprehensive accounting, but still it is not clear that has acted to follow the purposes set forth in the UDO, or comply with the regulations therein. The Town’s response to the in the months since they were notified of these problems has seemed to focus on finding ways that the UDO does not apply, instead of focusing on the UDO’s Purpose, “to promote and protect the public health, safety, peace, comfort and general welfare of the citizens and residents of and its…ETJ.”
Even if it is true that was not required to delineate RCA’s or to install plant buffers, I believe that should be held responsible for following the UDO and the plans that were agreed to and approved by the Planning Commission and the Town Council. I ask these bodies to make sure that the plans they approve are followed, so development in is not done at the expense of its natural resources, or its citizens’ rights.
This concludes my report. I would be glad to receive corrections of my analysis.
Below is a report I did for a landowner whose trees were raped by a builder who blatantly broke the rules, but no enforcement happened. The local paper is now looking into it. Names deleted to protect the guilty.
ASSIGNMENT
On May 30, 2006 Mrs. asked me to review town documents regarding the development, and check the accuracy of the claims that the work on that site in regard to the trees followed the town’s requirements and the UDO.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Trees on the property were damaged after a fence was moved, before a fence was installed, and again during a trespass. The cost of curing the damages is $2,970.00. The Town of can assess a penalty of $40,000.00, plus the cost of restoring the damaged trees.
OBSERVATIONS
It is understood that UDO 8.1 may not strictly apply, because the low density does not call for Resource Conservation Areas (RCA’s). I refer below to UDO 8.2, Landscaping…, and especially to the site plan that was approved by the Town Planning Commission and the Town Council. Please refer to the numbers on the attached site plan, to more easily follow along with the listing below.
Western Border
1. Grading was done before the property line was surveyed and flagged. I spoke with surveyor about the exact location of property line bordering the property. Mr. told me that the corner pipes were located, but the property lines were not marked. On the site plan, the Town’s instructions were to “Have your surveyor flag the property line adjacent to buffers and other protection areas, and flag the protection limits.” before grading.
Staff properly recognized the neighbor’s residential property as a protection area. Staff required protection limits to be fenced.
2. Developer removed the fencing along the Annunziata’s western border that was mandated, inspected and approved by Town staff. The protection area was then graded, removing and critically damaging the roots of the neighbor’s trees, including a landmark persimmon tree and a very large pine tree.. The area disturbed is approximately 13’ x 120’, or 1560 square feet.
Northern Border
3. Grading was done before any protection fencing was installed. Fill dirt was applied on an area 14’ x 75’, on the s northern border inside the fence location. Total area disturbed, over 1050 square feet. “Disturbing these areas may result in penalties as much as $20.00 for every square foot of encroachment up to a maximum penalty of $40,000.” UDO 8.2.3 C) 1) 1560 + 1050 = 2610 square feet x $20/square foot = $52,200.00. It seems that JVI could be fined the $40,000.00 maximum financial penalty that the Town of can levy for these violations.
4. The town required that the development’s main road be stopped short of the Annunziata property line. Instead, their excavation went right up to the line, pushing back the fence that divides the properties. It dug out soil four feet deep less than four feet away from a 22” diameter pine tree, causing it to become a hazard to fail For reference, see the information in UDO 8.1.3 D) 4), “Cutting more than 30% affects the health of the tree, and cutting over 40% affects the tree’s stability”2. We observed protruding roots of ten of the ’s tre’s torn off within their Critical Root Zone.
INVENTORY OF NEIGHBOR’S TREES WITH CRITICAL ROOT ZONE DAMAGE
Species Diameter” 4.5’ above grade Distance’ from trunk to cut
Quercus alba, White oak 8 7 TRESPASS--TOTALED
Liquidambar styraciflua, Sweetgum 14 12
Pinus taeda, Loblolly pine ** 22 ** ** 4 ** HAZARDOUS
Liquidambar, Sweetgum 6 4.5
Quercus alba, White oak 6 3.5
Liquidambar, Sweetgum 15 4
Quercus alba, White oak 7 5
Cornus florida, Flowering dogwood 6 3
Nyssa sylvatica, Tupelo 5 1
Quercus rubrum, Red oak 8 5
TOTAL: TEN TREES 97 Diameter Inches
5. On the first tree on the above list, the machinery trespassed by reaching over the line and tearing two primary branches off a white oak tree belonging entirely to the Annunziatas. Because the line was not marked, it is not clear whether the grading company is responsible for the trespass. The two branches comprised more than half of the tree’s total crown, so it could be considered a total loss. To date, no criminal complaint has been filed regarding this trespass.
6. The area to the east of the road is designated as a sewer easement, so staff did not require protection fencing there. Fill dirt was spread over the area. Nothing in the UDO was cited as a reason why this area did not receive any protection. Given the size of the easement, the line could be offset installed in a way that provides for the neighbor’s trees to be preserved.
“SAVE” TREES WITHIN
7. One dying white oak along Road is designated as a “save” tree on the site plan approved by the Town. The protection fence is only 5' away from this 28" dbh tree, and roots have been removed and damaged within 7' of the trunk. There are several sizeable dead branches in the crown and a severe infection on the same side of the trunk as the root damage. This “save” tree is dying due to the developer’s failure to follow the town’s tree preservation guidelines.
The UDO calls for inch-for-inch replacement for “save” trees that are not saved, so it seems that 28” of replacement trees could be planted if this one does not survive. s landscaper agreed to forward a plan to work on improving this tree’s chances, but this work has not commenced.
8. Another large white oak to the north has a tupelo tree right next to it. These trees are also designated “save” trees, but their fencing is also less than 5' away. They have lost roots from grading all around, even though they are also marked for protection on the Town's approved site plan. There is no evidence of care taken for their survival, so their future is uncertain.
9. Two oaks in the middle of the development were not designated on the site plan to be saved, but Mr. stated that he wanted to save them. The grading for the sidewalk tore up the roots of the largest one, so its survival is doubtful. I mention this out of due diligence because if it is left without any action taken to increase its stability, it may be a hazard to workers on the site and future homeowners. The smaller oak may survive, if steps are taken to protect it.
REACTIONS BY : The Town required to submit a tree management plan by a Certified Arborist, to mitigate the damage done after fences were removed. first submitted a plan drawn up by their uncertified landscaper. Then they resubmitted the same plan on the letterhead of an individual whose certification lapsed last year due to failure to keep up with his continuing education requirements. It was only after the neighbor checked these fraudulent credentials that complied with the Town’s instructions by finding an ISA Certified Arborist who would sign off on the plans.
SUMMARY
This is not a comprehensive accounting, but still it is not clear that has acted to follow the purposes set forth in the UDO, or comply with the regulations therein. The Town’s response to the in the months since they were notified of these problems has seemed to focus on finding ways that the UDO does not apply, instead of focusing on the UDO’s Purpose, “to promote and protect the public health, safety, peace, comfort and general welfare of the citizens and residents of and its…ETJ.”
Even if it is true that was not required to delineate RCA’s or to install plant buffers, I believe that should be held responsible for following the UDO and the plans that were agreed to and approved by the Planning Commission and the Town Council. I ask these bodies to make sure that the plans they approve are followed, so development in is not done at the expense of its natural resources, or its citizens’ rights.
This concludes my report. I would be glad to receive corrections of my analysis.
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Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
treeseer said:
Very good, and I love the above line.
I bet that raised a few eyebrows.
BlueRidgeMark
Addicted to ArboristSite
rebelman
ArboristSite Operative
Give 'em hell, Sarah! I've noticed an arrogant attitude here about trenching. One thing that is particularly destructive is not backfilling immediately. Often the trench is left wide open for many hours, days, or weeks. It's my understanding that this compounds the problem, because the ragged torn roots are exposed to air. Air kills tree roots.
Sara
ArboristSite Lurker
This is what the corner of our property (to the left of the white fence with the pink tie) looked like Wednesday morning....
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Sara
ArboristSite Lurker
And this is what it looked like Wednesday afternoon, when I got home from seeing the county judge....
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Looks like Hogan's periscope from the water barrel in Stalag 13.
Now where's Schultz? lol
Now where's Schultz? lol
Sara
ArboristSite Lurker
and here's the big picture.
The water main they have to get to is smack dab in the center of the picture, just off our property. The small tree right behind the fence is a red bud that is a little stunted from living in the shadow of the oak. But it puts on pretty growth every spring. At least it used to.
And, yes, the oak does overhang this trench.
I called the general manager about the incursion this morning and, next thing I knew, they had loaded up their toys and gone home. I guess they're leaving the trench open indefinitely. On the one hand, it's a relief to have them gone (however temporarily) after the events of the past week; on the other hand, now I get to stew over that open ditch for the next 2 weeks or so. Suppose I'm trespassing if I go backfill it myself.
