Nickrosis
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I'm thinking about this. My diagram doesn't apply to TreeSpyder's thing directly, but it is important, and I'll explain once I finish my report for school. 
Nickrosis
Nickrosis
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Truck Pull
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Nickrosis
Manned by Boderators
OK, the report is done and looking good. Thank you for the insults...I'm disappointed by the restraint that people on this board possess, or lack I should say.
The issue is pulling trees over with trucks. Until someone can prove it to me <i>quantitatively</i> that they know how much force they are placing on their rope, I will adamantly oppose pulling a tree over with a vehicle.
Please dispute the following points:
1. A truck's pulling power cannot be <i>quantitatively</i> measured by the operator without a gauge on the rope.
2. Using a technique intended to work as a back-up in case of the top breaking would create slack in the rope which the truck would quickly take up and shock.
3. Hinges are not designed to travel a great distance. The wood has been there for potentially hundreds of years, it could crush the side of the hinge closest to the notch, it could break on the side of the backcut - especially if it is thick or "meaty," and it could snap off completely if it moves too far (picture breaking a stick over your leg).
4. A sawyer should be able to fell a tree without a rope, if not, rigging is necessary until the tree is of a size that it can be dropped from the ground.
5. A rope must never be placed under a circumstance in which the wear or stress cannot be <i>quantitatively</i> measured.
6. No action should ever be taken where the rope could break.
7. An otherwise healthy root system may fail if such force is applied.
8. If the top were to break, an equal and opposite reaction would take place, sending it in the opposition direction of fall.
9. The truck could stall or suddenly move forward and no longer be the tool that is so heavily relied upon.
10. Routing a rope through multiple devices increases friction and points of failure.
Am I the only person who does not believe vehicles should be used? I am fully capable of defending my position, but I am open minded and willing to change it. By the same token, I hope that anyone reading this would respect me in the same way I respect them and would demonstrate that in their responses.
Nickrosis
The issue is pulling trees over with trucks. Until someone can prove it to me <i>quantitatively</i> that they know how much force they are placing on their rope, I will adamantly oppose pulling a tree over with a vehicle.
Please dispute the following points:
1. A truck's pulling power cannot be <i>quantitatively</i> measured by the operator without a gauge on the rope.
2. Using a technique intended to work as a back-up in case of the top breaking would create slack in the rope which the truck would quickly take up and shock.
3. Hinges are not designed to travel a great distance. The wood has been there for potentially hundreds of years, it could crush the side of the hinge closest to the notch, it could break on the side of the backcut - especially if it is thick or "meaty," and it could snap off completely if it moves too far (picture breaking a stick over your leg).
4. A sawyer should be able to fell a tree without a rope, if not, rigging is necessary until the tree is of a size that it can be dropped from the ground.
5. A rope must never be placed under a circumstance in which the wear or stress cannot be <i>quantitatively</i> measured.
6. No action should ever be taken where the rope could break.
7. An otherwise healthy root system may fail if such force is applied.
8. If the top were to break, an equal and opposite reaction would take place, sending it in the opposition direction of fall.
9. The truck could stall or suddenly move forward and no longer be the tool that is so heavily relied upon.
10. Routing a rope through multiple devices increases friction and points of failure.
Am I the only person who does not believe vehicles should be used? I am fully capable of defending my position, but I am open minded and willing to change it. By the same token, I hope that anyone reading this would respect me in the same way I respect them and would demonstrate that in their responses.
Nickrosis
Real 'lack of restraint' would have been a smack up side the head.
"I had no choice, I had to hit him"
......... Gene Murdock, quintessential Euc Man and winner of the first Western Chapter, ISA Jamboree, as reported in "Arborist Equipment".
"I had no choice, I had to hit him"
......... Gene Murdock, quintessential Euc Man and winner of the first Western Chapter, ISA Jamboree, as reported in "Arborist Equipment".
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
MM,
Wouldn’t that middle vector be 1000 + 300= 1300 lbs, not 700?
In my thinking the 300# up and down have no effect on the side pull, so 1300# in middle vector is the same force as 1000# initial pull.
Nick,
I appreciate your enthusiasm and hope you enjoy a long, safe and happy career. And everyone is entitled to an opinion and their own way of doing things. And I agree that the vibe of this site has a tendency to come down hard and IMJ this limits the scope of discussion because people don't feel safe to share here.
That said... IMJ your posts have a lot of attitude for talking to men who have been doing this work 5 days a week since before you were born. No disrespect intended.
As far as truck pull goes you can guestimate the amount of pull by seeing what it takes to lift logs of varying weight. Heavier trucks pull more weight. They say a man can pull about equal to his weight. Anybody know what the ratio is for trucks?
When it comes to a choice of spending a day or two rigging vs. overloading a rope (past the 10% SWL), I'll overload the rope(s) every time. Even w/o a truck, a 1500 lb rope come along set with a 3:1 z rig= 4500 lbs. There is however no shock load, which makes a big difference to those fibers, as do the knots used.
It's practical, safer, and cheaper to replace the ropes. Also remember other professions use a 20% SWL.
IMJ It is critical that the feller and driver have good (visual) communication and hopefully a lot of experience working together. A local company totaled a new Volvo a few years ago, when the driver hesitated in the middle of the pull long enough for the hinge to fail, sending the tree down sideways. Ouch!!!
Glad to have this forum & God Bless All,
Daniel
Wouldn’t that middle vector be 1000 + 300= 1300 lbs, not 700?
In my thinking the 300# up and down have no effect on the side pull, so 1300# in middle vector is the same force as 1000# initial pull.
Nick,
I appreciate your enthusiasm and hope you enjoy a long, safe and happy career. And everyone is entitled to an opinion and their own way of doing things. And I agree that the vibe of this site has a tendency to come down hard and IMJ this limits the scope of discussion because people don't feel safe to share here.
That said... IMJ your posts have a lot of attitude for talking to men who have been doing this work 5 days a week since before you were born. No disrespect intended.
As far as truck pull goes you can guestimate the amount of pull by seeing what it takes to lift logs of varying weight. Heavier trucks pull more weight. They say a man can pull about equal to his weight. Anybody know what the ratio is for trucks?
When it comes to a choice of spending a day or two rigging vs. overloading a rope (past the 10% SWL), I'll overload the rope(s) every time. Even w/o a truck, a 1500 lb rope come along set with a 3:1 z rig= 4500 lbs. There is however no shock load, which makes a big difference to those fibers, as do the knots used.
It's practical, safer, and cheaper to replace the ropes. Also remember other professions use a 20% SWL.
IMJ It is critical that the feller and driver have good (visual) communication and hopefully a lot of experience working together. A local company totaled a new Volvo a few years ago, when the driver hesitated in the middle of the pull long enough for the hinge to fail, sending the tree down sideways. Ouch!!!
Glad to have this forum & God Bless All,
Daniel
Kneejerk Bombas
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Murphy4trees writes:
"your posts have a lot of attitude for talking to men who have been doing this work 5 days a week since before you were born. "
The fact that someone has done something for years, has NO reflection on whether or not he has be doing it CORRECTLY for years!
Just to make my point, I know guys that get totally drunk everyday, then drive home. They have been doing it for years.
On the subject of the thread, I'm with Nick 100%.
Sure, you can pull trees over with trucks, but it ain't safe, fast maybe, but not safe.
Suppose there was a tree leaning over something very valuable, say your fishing boat, with all your old Playboys and your beer cooler in it.
You have two tree companies come to estamte removing the tree. One guy says he will throw a rope in it and jerk on the tree with his dump truck, while his buddy makes a cut.
The second guy says they will remove some limbs on the heavy side, support the tree in two directions with guy ropes, and put tension on a third rope with a GRCS device. Then do a proper notch, and pull the tree in a slow, controlled manner.
Now, who you going to hire?
Regarding the drawing, you may be correct. The resultant angle of pull changes, but the force increases, I think. Anyone else?
"your posts have a lot of attitude for talking to men who have been doing this work 5 days a week since before you were born. "
The fact that someone has done something for years, has NO reflection on whether or not he has be doing it CORRECTLY for years!
Just to make my point, I know guys that get totally drunk everyday, then drive home. They have been doing it for years.
On the subject of the thread, I'm with Nick 100%.
Sure, you can pull trees over with trucks, but it ain't safe, fast maybe, but not safe.
Suppose there was a tree leaning over something very valuable, say your fishing boat, with all your old Playboys and your beer cooler in it.
You have two tree companies come to estamte removing the tree. One guy says he will throw a rope in it and jerk on the tree with his dump truck, while his buddy makes a cut.
The second guy says they will remove some limbs on the heavy side, support the tree in two directions with guy ropes, and put tension on a third rope with a GRCS device. Then do a proper notch, and pull the tree in a slow, controlled manner.
Now, who you going to hire?
Regarding the drawing, you may be correct. The resultant angle of pull changes, but the force increases, I think. Anyone else?
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Mike,
What about using your truck to move the boat? especially if you left your GRCS back at the shop.
D
What about using your truck to move the boat? especially if you left your GRCS back at the shop.
D
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Ok, It's a $US15,000 bronze flamingo your wife inherited on a marble pedistal well anchored into the soil.
Shock loads degrade the life of a rope rapidly, if you are going to do this, are you keeping a diary and retiring the line after X number of over loads?
My feeling about trucks is that there are too many confounding variables, you can loose traction then have it jump up and jerk you.
There is no way in our buisness that we can do anything but make educated guesses as to what we are doing that is a given.
As for you small minded, petty people who have been sending Mr. Crawford nast emails. It is a good thing he did not tell me who you were or I would give yall a direct peice of what little mind I have left.
This is a place of OPEN discussion! Ribbing is one thing but we are here to share our experiances and learn from one another.
Whether it is Nick, Matt or any other younger memner of the group, if you think a responce is based in youthfull ingorance then use the oportunity to educate, and inform.
So act your MF age supid!
Shock loads degrade the life of a rope rapidly, if you are going to do this, are you keeping a diary and retiring the line after X number of over loads?
My feeling about trucks is that there are too many confounding variables, you can loose traction then have it jump up and jerk you.
There is no way in our buisness that we can do anything but make educated guesses as to what we are doing that is a given.
As for you small minded, petty people who have been sending Mr. Crawford nast emails. It is a good thing he did not tell me who you were or I would give yall a direct peice of what little mind I have left.
This is a place of OPEN discussion! Ribbing is one thing but we are here to share our experiances and learn from one another.
Whether it is Nick, Matt or any other younger memner of the group, if you think a responce is based in youthfull ingorance then use the oportunity to educate, and inform.
So act your MF age supid!
Tim Walsh
ArboristSite Member
Interesting thread. It seems that most of the group is in violent agreement with each other.
Nick, keep up the good work. If you aren't making any mistakes, you aren't living. It is very easy to attack the mistakes that others make, but remember, if someone is trying to knock you off of the top of the hill, that should tell you something.
Most of us come to these threads to learn and to share what we have learned. As has happened before, and will most likely happen again, ego's and attitudes interfere with the learning process.
I have received a barrage of insults and personal attacks on some discussion groups before. The best part is the reason why, I had asked a question based on one of Dr. Shigo's comments.
We can disagree, but there is no reason to be unprofessional about it. If someone makes a mistake here, it is not a big deal, especially if we can all learn from it. Better to make it here than in the field, remember death is forever.
I am disappointed that people are intimidated by Nick's age. Age doesn't guarantee wisdom. If you read more than one of Nick's posts you know that he isn't just some kid. Nick is very professional, he studies, he trains, he asks lots of questions, is extremely observant and very passionate about our profession. (By the way he pointed out and corrected a few mistakes that Dr. Shigo has made).
I would be honored to have Nick on my team any day.
Nick keep it up, we need you out there. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
TMW
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
-Albert Einstein
Nick, keep up the good work. If you aren't making any mistakes, you aren't living. It is very easy to attack the mistakes that others make, but remember, if someone is trying to knock you off of the top of the hill, that should tell you something.
Most of us come to these threads to learn and to share what we have learned. As has happened before, and will most likely happen again, ego's and attitudes interfere with the learning process.
I have received a barrage of insults and personal attacks on some discussion groups before. The best part is the reason why, I had asked a question based on one of Dr. Shigo's comments.
We can disagree, but there is no reason to be unprofessional about it. If someone makes a mistake here, it is not a big deal, especially if we can all learn from it. Better to make it here than in the field, remember death is forever.
I am disappointed that people are intimidated by Nick's age. Age doesn't guarantee wisdom. If you read more than one of Nick's posts you know that he isn't just some kid. Nick is very professional, he studies, he trains, he asks lots of questions, is extremely observant and very passionate about our profession. (By the way he pointed out and corrected a few mistakes that Dr. Shigo has made).
I would be honored to have Nick on my team any day.
Nick keep it up, we need you out there. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
TMW
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
-Albert Einstein
Kneejerk Bombas
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How come no one sends me nasty emails?
Lord knows I deserve them!
If not a flamingo, perhaps it's a permenent shrine, built into the ground, honoring Elvis. Decorated with all kinds of knickknacks collected from hundreds of trips to Graceland, all aranged in the shape of one of his sideburns.
Lord knows I deserve them!
If not a flamingo, perhaps it's a permenent shrine, built into the ground, honoring Elvis. Decorated with all kinds of knickknacks collected from hundreds of trips to Graceland, all aranged in the shape of one of his sideburns.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Or one of those "Madonna in a bathtub" shrines you see all over the southside of Milw.
Dave
ArboristSite Guru
In RI that's referred to as "Mary on the half shell", I suppose if you live nowhere near seafood it's probably not as funny.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I think having a seafood tradition would help
man i miss the fresh shrimp down in NC. The stuff they pass for Jumbo up hear is old bait!
man i miss the fresh shrimp down in NC. The stuff they pass for Jumbo up hear is old bait!
Gentleman let this table be round.
We are all used to being warriors against the odds in the field; commanding cooperation of giants -the largest living organisms to wander our earth. Wee seem to be a breed that locks horns with the bull, and thru conniving and determination of body, mind and soul; just don't give up before it does, ushering its nose to the ground with control and grace. As wee ants stand before these matchstix! (One of my favorites Murph!)
There aren't many like us, if you can't wave or nod passing another crew on the road a block from the job; and end up up side down in the air; Who ya gonna call? i'm sorry to say, that i know exacly what Nick is talking about; and long before now.
All that aggresive energy, can be used in its place not hear. Here ye, can tip visors and toss these things around. Fold in things and views, see if they work for you.
Which is kinda how we use the truck, a gentle giant. We just brace the tree, walk the backcut down to a point of failure; and roll forward a few feet. If it doesn't go easily, remove a lil more fibre, then usher it down. We don't bounce on the rope with the truck, or nail it to the floor. If you have a high leverage of pull, gently take the slack out of 120' of line, and pull forward 3-5feet, you really got something on it, unless it really has a lot of leverage against you. Of course that depends on the elasticity of the line, as to how far forward you go with so long a line. i just like pulling them into an open face earlier with one or two more rows of fibre on my side.
i look at metering force all day; i look at rigging as making gravity powered machines, as i cut down into a hinge, i empower that machine, by metering how much gravity can pull on it as long as i can, once again we don't slam or bounce the rope here either. We set the load slowly down into the bracing of the line, and let it take it away. So i guess, i am always trying to read and calcualte the rope, all day; and this seems almost the same to me as the pull, only reversed.
We have taken out a lot of pines over lawns, drives and walks in succesion like this. With very soft landings. Like JP said the cutter can untie the clove easily if it is right at the base, on the back side. The next tree to pull can be being hitched to the truck as that line is being taken out by the cutter, the crew pulls it free.
i think if i can do that safely and competantly without any airtime; that that can be the safest and also most productive route. Not every situation lends itself to that.
If you are dealing with an older oak, you can punch the horizontal center of the hinge to eliminate the stiffest, oldest part of the hinge, and leave just the outside more younger, more flexible wood fibres to perform the bending of the hinge. This will also maximize the board feet, by less splintering of the widest end of the log. But, with this center pivot of the hinge gone, the pulling leverage of the outside corners of the hinge to adjust for side lean seems to be lessened. This is best done in good wood only, as you are eliminating some of the healthy fibre already that could be helping the machine of the hinge; which you might need all you can get in situations of rot/decay.
Peace.
We are all used to being warriors against the odds in the field; commanding cooperation of giants -the largest living organisms to wander our earth. Wee seem to be a breed that locks horns with the bull, and thru conniving and determination of body, mind and soul; just don't give up before it does, ushering its nose to the ground with control and grace. As wee ants stand before these matchstix! (One of my favorites Murph!)
There aren't many like us, if you can't wave or nod passing another crew on the road a block from the job; and end up up side down in the air; Who ya gonna call? i'm sorry to say, that i know exacly what Nick is talking about; and long before now.
All that aggresive energy, can be used in its place not hear. Here ye, can tip visors and toss these things around. Fold in things and views, see if they work for you.
Which is kinda how we use the truck, a gentle giant. We just brace the tree, walk the backcut down to a point of failure; and roll forward a few feet. If it doesn't go easily, remove a lil more fibre, then usher it down. We don't bounce on the rope with the truck, or nail it to the floor. If you have a high leverage of pull, gently take the slack out of 120' of line, and pull forward 3-5feet, you really got something on it, unless it really has a lot of leverage against you. Of course that depends on the elasticity of the line, as to how far forward you go with so long a line. i just like pulling them into an open face earlier with one or two more rows of fibre on my side.
i look at metering force all day; i look at rigging as making gravity powered machines, as i cut down into a hinge, i empower that machine, by metering how much gravity can pull on it as long as i can, once again we don't slam or bounce the rope here either. We set the load slowly down into the bracing of the line, and let it take it away. So i guess, i am always trying to read and calcualte the rope, all day; and this seems almost the same to me as the pull, only reversed.
We have taken out a lot of pines over lawns, drives and walks in succesion like this. With very soft landings. Like JP said the cutter can untie the clove easily if it is right at the base, on the back side. The next tree to pull can be being hitched to the truck as that line is being taken out by the cutter, the crew pulls it free.
i think if i can do that safely and competantly without any airtime; that that can be the safest and also most productive route. Not every situation lends itself to that.
If you are dealing with an older oak, you can punch the horizontal center of the hinge to eliminate the stiffest, oldest part of the hinge, and leave just the outside more younger, more flexible wood fibres to perform the bending of the hinge. This will also maximize the board feet, by less splintering of the widest end of the log. But, with this center pivot of the hinge gone, the pulling leverage of the outside corners of the hinge to adjust for side lean seems to be lessened. This is best done in good wood only, as you are eliminating some of the healthy fibre already that could be helping the machine of the hinge; which you might need all you can get in situations of rot/decay.
Peace.
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Kneejerk Bombas
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Treespyder,
You managed to prattle on for a good page without addressing any of Nick's points, not that I don't enjoy your prattle.
You did point out:
*You have leverage.
Invalid arguement, because a rope can be thrown into a tree even if you are using the proper tools.
*No air time is safer.
Invalid arguement, because a rope can be thrown into a tree even if you are using the proper tools.
*You've done it with success on some pines.
So what.
*You can punch out the hinge.
I disagree that that makes the hinge work better, but if it does, it is still another invalid arguemnet.
If I read you correctly you, "walk the backcut down to a point of failure; and roll forward a few feet. "
Why not tension the line some so when you cut in, the tree starts to move? That way you don't need to worry about the possibility of the truck stalling, the driver not responding, or whatever. Then you are also tesioning the line with the saw off so you can hear and see how the tree responds to the tension.
I see using a truck as a "Johnny Homeowner" technique like standing on a ladder to cut a branch off. Sure, you can do it, sometimes even safely, maybe even faster, but it is not something that can be done day after day, without having a problem, eventually.
You managed to prattle on for a good page without addressing any of Nick's points, not that I don't enjoy your prattle.
You did point out:
*You have leverage.
Invalid arguement, because a rope can be thrown into a tree even if you are using the proper tools.
*No air time is safer.
Invalid arguement, because a rope can be thrown into a tree even if you are using the proper tools.
*You've done it with success on some pines.
So what.
*You can punch out the hinge.
I disagree that that makes the hinge work better, but if it does, it is still another invalid arguemnet.
If I read you correctly you, "walk the backcut down to a point of failure; and roll forward a few feet. "
Why not tension the line some so when you cut in, the tree starts to move? That way you don't need to worry about the possibility of the truck stalling, the driver not responding, or whatever. Then you are also tesioning the line with the saw off so you can hear and see how the tree responds to the tension.
I see using a truck as a "Johnny Homeowner" technique like standing on a ladder to cut a branch off. Sure, you can do it, sometimes even safely, maybe even faster, but it is not something that can be done day after day, without having a problem, eventually.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
IMJ (in my judgment) or IMO (opinion) is a statement of ownership. It means this is what I think; these are my thoughts, etc. That creates a distinction from a statement of fact, leaving room for others whom think differently. Making statements of fact such as this is the "right” or "correct" way can be very divisive. People have to line up on one side or the other. They either agree or disagree.
IMJ there are no absolute right or correct ways to do tree work. There are far too many variables and the science, technique and technology are constantly changing. What was considered proper practice yesterday is improper today. Everyone has their own way of doing things. So I AM glad to have this opportunity to learn and share with all of you. This site is great!!!
As far as truck pull goes. I’d take my chances with the truck on the flamingo... the Elvis shrine I might have to rig.
Yesterday I asked an old tree man, Peter, "What do you think about pulling trees over with trucks?" This guy is a master of common sense. His response “It’s unreliable". He's the one that told me about that Volvo incident. "It was a big truck, but the tree was bigger". He wanted to put a retainer line in the tree, but the foreman said no. A hard lesson.
God bless All,
Daniel
IMJ there are no absolute right or correct ways to do tree work. There are far too many variables and the science, technique and technology are constantly changing. What was considered proper practice yesterday is improper today. Everyone has their own way of doing things. So I AM glad to have this opportunity to learn and share with all of you. This site is great!!!
As far as truck pull goes. I’d take my chances with the truck on the flamingo... the Elvis shrine I might have to rig.
Yesterday I asked an old tree man, Peter, "What do you think about pulling trees over with trucks?" This guy is a master of common sense. His response “It’s unreliable". He's the one that told me about that Volvo incident. "It was a big truck, but the tree was bigger". He wanted to put a retainer line in the tree, but the foreman said no. A hard lesson.
God bless All,
Daniel
Machines are not reliable enough all the time. I often use block and tackle to drop tall trees where they are supposed to land. Single block as anchor and double in the tree at least 2/3 up. Tailline off at an angle to get proper vector. 4:1 on blocks ( times the height equals the tourq on the hinge) in foot pounds.Use the angle between the anchor and tail line to keep the tree from drifting to far left or right. So long as you have tension on the tailline the tree will fall between anchor and tailline. Yes I do use a truck once in awhile, not often.
Yes, after thirty years I can cut the trees to fall where I want them, could do that after two years of intense practice. I don't object to the use of block and tackle as a safety factor, if you have to place the tree inbetween lots of things use it.
Used it last week to drop a 67' pine which had to lean out away from the house 28' to clear the gutters and roof then swing back to land under the overhanging roof so as not to put the tree in the street and powerlines. High winds are the biggest worry for me. If I look out and the flag is strait out it is too windy to be in the trees today, but not too windy to cut trees with lots of clear landing zone.
Yes, after thirty years I can cut the trees to fall where I want them, could do that after two years of intense practice. I don't object to the use of block and tackle as a safety factor, if you have to place the tree inbetween lots of things use it.
Used it last week to drop a 67' pine which had to lean out away from the house 28' to clear the gutters and roof then swing back to land under the overhanging roof so as not to put the tree in the street and powerlines. High winds are the biggest worry for me. If I look out and the flag is strait out it is too windy to be in the trees today, but not too windy to cut trees with lots of clear landing zone.
Stumper
One Man Band
Interesting thread! Man , the emotions got wrought up on this one! I have seen some tremendously stupid things done with ropes, chains, and trucks. I also have saved a great deal of time and risk by judiciously using one. The key is knowing what can be done and what cannot. Perhaps more importantly what can safely and reasonably be done. I try to avoid ANY situation in which I tread on the edge of failure.
Nick, I respectfully disagree with your forestry buddies analysis of rope use in felling trees. I have felled thousands of trees. I understand directional felling techniques and have pulled stunts like laying down markers ,driving stakes etc. Whenever a tree of substantial size is within reach of anything which could be damaged it gets a rope placed in it. Cheap insurance! It doesn't matter that I know I can lay it down safely. Ever have a freak 65mph gust of wind come from the wrong direction just as the tree is about to hinge over? Aaaaahhhhh the peace of mind provided by rope! I generally work alone. A dynamic line(100% nylon) pretensioned by B&T or truck provides a few feet of "take up" when making a felling cut. The tree will move slightly opening the cut while there is plenty of "meat" left in the hinge. Depending on the situation the cut can be deepened letting the tree continue into a fall or the wedge can be set and the Lone Tree Man can shut off the saw and tail onto the rope. All of this gets done safely day after day because of experience. The way to get the experience to do this sort of thing is to do it when it isn't necessary. If you experiment when there aren't going to be serious consequences if you miscaculate you have the oportunity to learn the techniques and the capabilities of your equipment. One rule remains inviolate for me: NEVER JERK Steady pressure produces predictable results. Aerial work has its place but it is by no means a zero risk method of removal. The best way is the safest way and sometimes that means using rope and mechanical advantage(0r even a wheeled machine_
Nick, I respectfully disagree with your forestry buddies analysis of rope use in felling trees. I have felled thousands of trees. I understand directional felling techniques and have pulled stunts like laying down markers ,driving stakes etc. Whenever a tree of substantial size is within reach of anything which could be damaged it gets a rope placed in it. Cheap insurance! It doesn't matter that I know I can lay it down safely. Ever have a freak 65mph gust of wind come from the wrong direction just as the tree is about to hinge over? Aaaaahhhhh the peace of mind provided by rope! I generally work alone. A dynamic line(100% nylon) pretensioned by B&T or truck provides a few feet of "take up" when making a felling cut. The tree will move slightly opening the cut while there is plenty of "meat" left in the hinge. Depending on the situation the cut can be deepened letting the tree continue into a fall or the wedge can be set and the Lone Tree Man can shut off the saw and tail onto the rope. All of this gets done safely day after day because of experience. The way to get the experience to do this sort of thing is to do it when it isn't necessary. If you experiment when there aren't going to be serious consequences if you miscaculate you have the oportunity to learn the techniques and the capabilities of your equipment. One rule remains inviolate for me: NEVER JERK Steady pressure produces predictable results. Aerial work has its place but it is by no means a zero risk method of removal. The best way is the safest way and sometimes that means using rope and mechanical advantage(0r even a wheeled machine_
i must admit, i have to respect all the 'backwash' here, and am even more careful with this! There was a time we didn't do it because of a lot of the objections presented here. But grew beyond that, by constantly using everything around us to aid in each day's puzzle; with that truck staring at us!
Know how much you need it, and only tap that much from the gentle giant (truck). If a line has 7% stretch, and you stretch 4' pull on 120' of line; you're probably kinda safe........
The surprise or shifting wind scenario is realistic, as is pulling with a thicker hinge for slower, more directional felling, and human error on other calculations. A tree leaning to 2 o'clock of the same size and weight will fall with a meatier hinge on its own, so you can use a meatier hinge for straight verticals safely. The meatier the hinge, the more the back fibres of the hinge have to flex, this is where a horizontal center punch, can help to eliminate the stiffer, non-flexing, oldest wood- to leave only the younger more flexable fibres on the outside. I beleive Eric Sorenson came up with it in Sweden to maximize harvested wood by eliminating these stiffer fibres, and not letting them fracture up inside the valuable spar at its most valuable/largest end. It does eliminate fibre, so there must be plenty of healthy fibre left to make it safe. Also, effect of side holding wood for balancing the top is dropped as it doesn't have the center wood to leverage through.
We don't pull hard with the truck, but it is there in case! We don't bend the top over with the rope because it is not bowlined in, it is just in a superior leverage (less truck) position, that is also stronger by its bracing/lacing at the top. We also wedge from the back for the last tilt into the tightened line.
We only use it gently guys; like JP handling a 2 day olde baby!
Always practice anything new in non-critical applications many times.
Know how much you need it, and only tap that much from the gentle giant (truck). If a line has 7% stretch, and you stretch 4' pull on 120' of line; you're probably kinda safe........
The surprise or shifting wind scenario is realistic, as is pulling with a thicker hinge for slower, more directional felling, and human error on other calculations. A tree leaning to 2 o'clock of the same size and weight will fall with a meatier hinge on its own, so you can use a meatier hinge for straight verticals safely. The meatier the hinge, the more the back fibres of the hinge have to flex, this is where a horizontal center punch, can help to eliminate the stiffer, non-flexing, oldest wood- to leave only the younger more flexable fibres on the outside. I beleive Eric Sorenson came up with it in Sweden to maximize harvested wood by eliminating these stiffer fibres, and not letting them fracture up inside the valuable spar at its most valuable/largest end. It does eliminate fibre, so there must be plenty of healthy fibre left to make it safe. Also, effect of side holding wood for balancing the top is dropped as it doesn't have the center wood to leverage through.
We don't pull hard with the truck, but it is there in case! We don't bend the top over with the rope because it is not bowlined in, it is just in a superior leverage (less truck) position, that is also stronger by its bracing/lacing at the top. We also wedge from the back for the last tilt into the tightened line.
We only use it gently guys; like JP handling a 2 day olde baby!
Always practice anything new in non-critical applications many times.
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
>>We only use it gently guys; like JP handling a 2 day olde baby!
Look, he fits in one hand!
Look, he fits in one hand!
Stumper
One Man Band
By the way, Geofore and others have mentioned the unreliability of truck and machines in general, There is nothing to say you can't use multiple ropes. Has anyone else out there guyed a tree so that it couldn't drift off line and pulled with another rope? The rigging is more complex since angles have to be such that the guylines will still permit the tree to fall where desired. Just one more thing rattling around in the bottom of the bag-of-tricks.
