Truck Pull

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After ignoring questions previously asked, Treespyder wrote this snip:

"When i inspected stump for lessons on next cut (always do that, even in tree!), i would find a leathery stripe of bark line holding on one side and not the other, off balancing the pull right at the end. So, even there it seemed that the younger wood was more flexible. "

The lesson I would get from this is that fibers on the outside of the log are able to peel down, not that they have any different strength or flexability. The fibers on the inside of the log can't hang on and peel down, they are surrounded by other fibers.

Bark on the other hand may have different characteristics, but that has nothing to do with whether or not punching out the center of the hinge makes it stronger.
 
WOW!

i'm sew sorry, as i wove on web and not everything got printed. But eye saw fit to answer all questions methodically. Actually, in depth, squeezing these things out from myself and assembling them to answer the diffrent queries that might result. Trying to trim back as i became self concious as to length, repetition, politeness while being comprehensive. But, a-lass; after all that the power flashed from a storm; and it was gone! So, revisiting all that and making previous post was all that i had the time and spirit for at the time. Also i was leaving room for other responses! i do that sometimes, back off to see if someone else would like to speak, sometimes waiting a few daze...........

We don't pull everything down with a truck, sometimes don't do it for months, sometimes a few times a week. We just don't rule it out. Sometimes it is the quicker set up, less fatigue way to pull, needs no anchor, it is mobile power, present on job etc. It also has a wealth of power in reserve, quickly accessible in a pinch if right at the wrong time that mystery wind did catch ya wrong, or other miss-calcualtion.

i usually use 5/8" line on truck pulls, and go gently. We generally drive forward, with a man at 90 degrees to the drop watching me (i generally nod when the tree starts 'breathing' some), and top, while directing driver. Sometimes another man watching all, but specifically watching truck's path, so driver can specifically watch the previous man's command. Pre-stretching the line, set brake and brace tree, can take more time and effort manually, prior to even backcutting any.

i think with the more power available you can bring down larger, more off balance things safer, with less air time. Basically by invoking a superior hinge to usher the drop. Even in climbing, sometimes i will have the guys pull down on the end of a horizontal rigged limb, pulling the limb into the facecut with more hinge, some times getting 180degress of hinging almost horizontally. We do it the same way as a takedown, by pulling on the end of the lever, so the hinge folds earlier, with more fibre, giving more support and braking through the arc the hinge ushers. This gives some control over direction and speed, as long as the hinge hangs on.

So, having a wide face to allow a wider sweep, and a hinge that can achieve that too, can impact the ground less, with the most directional control; in the air, or on the ground. Sometimes to compound this, we use 3' tall tight stacks of brush at the calculated initial contact points. Sometimes, knotching the top of the first leading levers on the removal, then slightly undercutting them. The idea is not to make them dangerous, but to have them fold at so much force, dissipating it. This keeps them from being loaded springs trapped under tons of force, digging into the ground, absorbs a lot of shock; while maintaining their pull in the favorably in the felling direction! Sometimes if we want the head to roll left, we can set it so that an even fork hits the ground first, and the right leg ends up being the longer of the 2 after folding, serving to the left, of course a block or face dutchman can help some here too.

With more positive hinge control, we can also lessen shock by not laying into the lean as much, whereby, that would be feeding directly into gravity. So, less impact i think on the same drop! Even without a truck as the pulling force, we do try to maximize the leveraged pull, and the hinging to reap all these benefits. With more pull, we can get more hinge control, sometimes to reach this, we use the truck.

Sometimes i will bring a driver to the sideview of the tree and show him we are dropping this straight up and down stick, it is 20' lever. If we are pulling with 50#, that would put 1 ton of force at the hinge on a balanced load. It will go over! But we want to bring it over earlier, with a thicker hinge for slower fall. So he can put together a 3/1 while i quiz him on it, then bust hemaroids with 2 other guys, as i take my time to cut the tree, or he can use the 'mule' to pull it. If he wants to do that, and he pulls too hard, he will hand pull all future trees over by hand; with 2 other cussing guys........ So the only way he can screw up is to go too hard! Really, just setting the line and pulling (bow stringing) sideways can be quite powerful too.

We don't really try to bend the top, that kinda got started with discussion of bowlining a ring to the top, or lacing line over it to snake down back of tree. Insamuch that you could bend with either hitching setup, but, the bowline would continue pulling on the same point, while on a flexing top there would be more forgiveness and strength in the other method. But, we do look for movement at the back of the backcut,and the top of the tree, for earliest percievable motions of each during cutting, as they are strategically the most leveraged points of each to witness this readily.

Whether in a self torquing rig in the tree, or lacing the line over and down the back spine of the tree, i think the pull goes to the knot/first hitch. That means that, just like a line going over your head, down your back and tied to your ankles, would push your head down and try to pull you forward from the ankles flippinng, so does the same force act on a tree! Though it might not be able to flip a tree or limb around, it is a diffrent pull than a line pulling you under your armpits forward! i think that bend in the rig, or top of the tree, wants to 'dump' its bucket as it straightens out, and this is more apparent with an acute angle; ie closer to the tree. i think this delivers somehow additional urging and force, but don't know how to examine, test and prove it, beyond observation. i think that the more acute the angle, the more pronounced that is, like in the example of standing closer to the tree, with line high; another one would be as the line snakes over the top over a rear leaning flared point. This seems to be like cocked back to me (more acute angle?), and the the line seems to want to open out and be straight more.

The bark strips that came off with these pines i spoke of, seemed most notably strong and leathery above all else to my forensic observation, that is why i offered it. In the centerpunch hinge, we might be weakening it some, but we are after flexability of younger fibre. i watched an Eric Sorenson film produced by Stihl so many times about how the center fibres where stiffer, that i beleived these 2 experts. i think it is more pronounced in some trees. When pushing flexability and depending on hinging it to the max, i consider that imagery that they offered, for it seemed to fit with some of my experience. This included the leathery, younger strips of pine; philosophy examples of flexable saplings making it through storms, where stiffer trees didn't etc.

Hope i answered 'em all that time..................
 
Dr. Shigo on Fiber Strength

I faxed this to Dr. Shigo on June 17th.

Dr. Shigo,

Recently, I attended your student workshop at the Sugar Shack, and I was also with the students from Stevens Point, WI when we visited you in March. My dad, Perry Crawford, and I greatly appreciated the time you set aside for us with your workshop.
Now, I have a question that came up in an online discussion at ArboristSite.com. Someone I know from Florida has been passionately promoting the use of trucks to pull over trees that are leaning in the opposite direction. He believes he knows how much force he is using with the truck, and he believes that by punching out the center of his hinge and making it thicker, he can control the fall of the tree.

He punches out the center and makes a thicker hinge because he considers the heartwood to be less flexible, so he cuts out that by plunge cutting with his chain saw. The sapwood he thickens because he considers that more flexible. What do you think? Is heartwood less flexible or weaker? Why? Because of its age, or the anti-decay agents it contains? This is something that I’ve been pondering for a while and figured you would be the one to ask!
____________________________________________________

Today, I received a response from Dr. Shigo. He said, and I'm quoting it entirely,

"Heartwood - It would be impossible to answer because every tree species is different, and some people still call discolored wood, heartwood. Heartwood in white oaks would be less flexible than the very thin sapwood. Heartwood does contain extractives that would make it less flexible."
____________________________________________________

I think I posed the question clearly enough, but that is what I asked and that is what he responded with.

Nickrosis

P.S....Trooper, This is not a dating service, although Darin just said he likes matchmaking.
 
Whoops.. pic is too big for the screen. What to do? Hope you all can maximize and see it well enough.
So the deal here is that the leaning tree has uprooted, and is resting on a 2" branch in adjascent ivy coverred oak. Block is set in far oak, with ladder. I could have rigged line with MA and pulled it by hand, but that would have been slow. And preventing any possibility of damaging fence would require a retainer line set back in woods. To me that was a serious safety issue as it was tick season and a walk through the woods scares me.
So I put the porta wrap on the hitch of a 150 Pickup (automatic)and gently pulled away, taking tree into woods. I seriously doubt that it took more than the 770 lbs. SWL to pull that tree over and IMJ the truck was the safest, fastest, and easiest way to go.
There were no good trees around to lower from...
What would you have done?
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
Daniel,
I`ve taken trees like this one using a rope fastened to the base of one like you have but instead of a block I use a rope winch on the bottom of the tree and winch the removal tree just snug.
Cut a wide open face notch and leave a healthy hinge when starting the back cut.
Start the back cut, winch, wedge and back cut but don`t cut all the way through to where the hinge breaks, just winch it over.
The notch should close and the tree will remain attatched to the trunk unless it is too far gone.
 
When i started this thread, i was looking for that better pull to force a bigger, meatier hinge by pulling the tree into the face earlier in backcut than normally. Others have pointed out to me (and made me remeber long ago b4 taming this) about how easily some excited person can pull too hard with cataastrophic results; i still do it from time to time, but with even more caution.

i think this pull too, could be better with truck, in so much that, i could see more chance of failure in an already compromised situation with the slower methodology of wedging and winching. That the inertia of continuous flowing motion could keep the tree on track better with the right timing.
 
Using a truck just opens up a bunch of things that could go wrong, but to each his own.
It almost looks like addding another rope would allow you to guide the tree right down through the fence. By adding another rope you could control the tree such that you wouldn't need to pull at any certain speed.
When I start rigging a tree, and I'm thinking that it has to be pulled really fast to prevent disaster, I stop and use a different tactic. Things can happen to screw up the plan, for example, just when it's time to pull, the neighbor walks right behind the truck to see what's going on, the truck stalls, the wheel spins...
 
i kinda agree, i tend to try to minimize force and speed on most things, even pulling on a hinge at the right time is purposefully challenge the hinge more so tree tips with more hinge and comes down slower, not to really use the racing truck to pull throungh the radius of the tree pivoting on the hinge quickly and scared.

i advocate walking out the 'track' for sound ground, making sure noone can interfere, getting line taut and easing more pressure on hinge at right moment to easily bring more force on it than by other means, so then truck eases forward 4-6' or what ever, than might be able to stop if job is done and truck is clear; as tree steers down slowly on thicker hinge. i steer at the stump like Oxman spoke of in tilted triangle hinge {http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4861} , though i guess you're not supposed to. But, in good wood. with a perfectly clean, uninterupted wide facee, commited moving tree on a healthy hinge feel good about it.

Then we went to dutchmans in that same thread Ox started, where he uses rushing force of tree to steer through forcing the faces of the hinge come together more violently, then using that maximized force to steer the tree by one lower face side of the hinge being higher than the other. Actually, that is more powerful (and riskier, he must be really doing this a lot to confidentally control it)) than the triangle we talked about, but i belive he combines the 2 to compound them! The tilt in the triangle he pro-poses, i think makes load stall, force build, then rush at once, usherring that impact into maximizing the force of the 2 facecuts slamming together throwing it from the high step to the low one, the thin end of the triangle hinge releasing earlier thaan the thick one and allowing this..

So, just as there, sometimes IMAO the inertia of force can be used to steer on a certain track. In the pic to me it looks like it might stall pivoting to face, and is not this massive thing that is already moving, so i thought of increasing that quotient as imediate reaction to seeing it. Smaller diameter, less hinge area, maybe rot. i think important to get it moving and it moving real good, so it doesn't get dis-track-(ted).

i see what MM means; but just have to argue to keep him on his toes! Mostly i try to rule out as much massive force as possible, but i never rule out looking at that flip side to see, if this is that 1 time it is called for. Hence, not totally ruling out truck that is sitting there in my face all the time, as portable power and anchor, as i toss the puzzle of what is best and all its permutations and risks.
 
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Murph, The pic doesn't necessarily show everything but I have a couple of ??. Why did you rig your pulley so high in the 'redirect' tree?(I try to rig as low as possible in order to avoid leverage against what I want to hold without failure.) Also, was it impractical to rig higher into the tree you were pulling? Finally, rather than take the fence down etc, did you consider roping the top to the tre it was leaning against and working it by blocking from the butt?( A tricky op that I prefer to avoid but workable in some situations.) I'm not trying to sound too critical-I know there are things I can't see. Just want to get a good analysis.:)
 
nice polite non attacking style.

i assume line is high to make over fence during pull, i was thinking it should have been guy wired back for support, hitch for guy over redirect pulley for max. anchoring along 'bar' between anchoring of roots and guy.

Like your mechanical analasys.
 
I also use a truck to pull with when it seems the best option. We employ all the cautious procedures so well explained by the spidey man.

Kevin,

What rope winch do you use? I have the simpson Capstan winch, 034 Super powered. it would have done that tree pretty handily.
 
Ok more details. My customer owns to the fence. Woods are neighbor's. Leaner was soooo long dead that there was no trusting anything about it. It was resting on a 2" branch which was barely holding. I wasn't going anywhere near that tree if I could avoid it and certaibnly not with a chainsaw. Lowering couldn't be trusted because the tree could just fall apart from any small shock. I Set the pull line using a 24' ladder set in adjascent oak. Reached over ever so gingerly to tie off. That was the scariest part of the job. The roots were not holding.
from a practical stanpoint, pulling tree into woods saved a lot of time and trouble cause there was no clean-up. My customer was retentive about her grass.
So to me the choice was set a retainer line and rig using MA or set up block and pull with truck. Now a retainer line and MA system would have required exposure to disease carrying ticks in those woods. That may not scare you if you haven't been sick... but it scares me 'cause I have. PLus the truck was just easier and faster and in this case there was little chance of overloading past SWL.... even if someone punched the gas, which of course I didn't. The tree just didn't have the wieght or strength to resist the pull.
That said... A rope winch would have been the ticket. A nice little toy I Am sure. I always question if spending the money on such items is worth it 'til I buy, and then after a few weeks I wonder how I ever survived without it.
God Bless All,
Daniel
 
I`m using the "armstrong winch" (Maasdam Rope Puller).

16071.jpg
 
Can-do,

No more power, is my opinion. but it spreads out the load a bit better. Must have a solid crotch for it to go through. other benefit is not having to isolate the pull line, helpful when the line is set from the ground.
 
Maasdam power puller i believe it is!

Can do that was : {http://www.arboristsite.com//showthread.php?s=&threadid=4074} And yes IMAO, if that spar had a pulley at the top and you pulled straight down, then there would be 2x pull on top, the most leveraged position for pull. It also braces from the back, the more line on the back=the more ruber band to prestretch. Now from that 2x pull, you have to subtract your efficiency losses of friction on wood (rather than pulley) aaand the angles of pull not being pair-allel unless you are going to stand at the base and pull!)

No 2/1 is perfect, so you always werk to minimize the losses.
 
Re: Dr. Shigo on Fiber Strength

Originally posted by Nickrosis
I faxed this to Dr. Shigo on June 17th.

Dr. Shigo,

....... Someone I know from Florida has been passionately promoting that by punching out the center of his hinge and making it thicker, he can control the fall of the tree.

He punches out the center and makes a thicker hinge because he considers the heartwood to be less flexible, so he cuts out that by plunge cutting with his chain saw. The sapwood he thickens because he considers that more flexible. What do you think? Is heartwood less flexible or weaker? Why? Because of its age, or the anti-decay agents it contains? This is something that I’ve been pondering for a while and figured you would be the one to ask!
____________________________________________________

Today, I received a response from Dr. Shigo. He said, and I'm quoting it entirely,

"Heartwood - It would be impossible to answer because every tree species is different, and some people still call discolored wood, heartwood. Heartwood in white oaks would be less flexible than the very thin sapwood. Heartwood does contain extractives that would make it less flexible."
____________________________________________________

I think I posed the question clearly enough, but that is what I asked and that is what he responded with.

Nickrosis


i've continued to center punch the face of some trees without hard leans to either side of the fall. Especially darkened, drier, older 'looking' wood in face inspection (for rot, crossing face cuts etc.) previous to back cut, and continue to see more flexible fiber results on the outside bands of fiber preserved in the hinge i think (hard to reset again and do in same conditions differently). i belienve this can give a greater radius, of more controlled felling. Also, more flexible fiber would not tend to compress up as much and force more intense loading of the rear fibers? Preserving more strength in hinge by more working fibers/ less arching stff fibers over stiff fibers!.

Then force as much leverage to move hinge as possible , and cut slow (so that force of leveraged pull makes slow powerful hinge instead of weak/ fast one, for there is that trade off here too....!).

Not for every occasion, not for hard leans to the side IMLHO (undermines built up hinge pressure against side leans i think).

Orrrrrrr something like that!
:alien:
 
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