undermined tree(s)
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murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
Brillaint respone Guy....
Hey..
you either believe what Lxt wrote and reported about the damage or you don't... If you don't then just say "I don't have enough facts to make an accurate recommendation"... If you do believe it then argue your case based on what was presented...
You ask me to mellow out, BUT there are consequences here to your resommendations... an intricate web of lives involved in ways we cannot understand...
Hey..
you either believe what Lxt wrote and reported about the damage or you don't... If you don't then just say "I don't have enough facts to make an accurate recommendation"... If you do believe it then argue your case based on what was presented...
You ask me to mellow out, BUT there are consequences here to your resommendations... an intricate web of lives involved in ways we cannot understand...
Murph, I thank you for the advice!
you can see that some of the dirt(not alot) was pushed up on the root flare area, I should have taken pic`s 1-2 months ago then you could of seen how much more was exposed, I am assuming thats when they were considering doing some thing with the hazard they created!
after talking with them following their digging adventure, they in a short time filled in & tapered away from the trunk to the yard what you now see!
Murph much like you I dont just say "take it down" if there is a reason not to, but when in the field viewing something like this I always pretty much recommend removal.........a company looks like a fool saving a tree only to return a few years later to remove what now is stone dead! or worse to remove it off of property after it failed!
heres what I have done, sent home owner a letter advising of hazard, gave them a bid on work discussed prior to this event & let them know I will do the(1) tree removal for FREE
failure to grant me permission to remove the hazard or to have it addressed & resolved will result in the following action:
Excavator insurance will be contacted ( already had to file a claim against them for backing dump truck into utility pole & breaking conduit for my underground electric service) & secondary claim filed!
I will contact again my HO policy holder & ask them to pursue claim of creating a hazard, actually PA crime codes has a section stating that anyone who willfully engages in an act/action that would or could possibly cause damage to ones property, person or other they are guilty of: this depends on dollar amount of damages over $5000 is a felony!
I may even have to file a complaint with the local authorities in regard to this matter, to safe gaurd myself!
I even put in the letter to neighbors I would if need be help in the trees in the rear of the property as they grading in a way that many cherries/locusts & maples now have a severe lean toward their house, I told them for a fee lower than my competition I would do this; trying to make harmony here!!
we will see & I`ll let ya know!!
Thanks
LXT..................
you can see that some of the dirt(not alot) was pushed up on the root flare area, I should have taken pic`s 1-2 months ago then you could of seen how much more was exposed, I am assuming thats when they were considering doing some thing with the hazard they created!
after talking with them following their digging adventure, they in a short time filled in & tapered away from the trunk to the yard what you now see!
Murph much like you I dont just say "take it down" if there is a reason not to, but when in the field viewing something like this I always pretty much recommend removal.........a company looks like a fool saving a tree only to return a few years later to remove what now is stone dead! or worse to remove it off of property after it failed!
heres what I have done, sent home owner a letter advising of hazard, gave them a bid on work discussed prior to this event & let them know I will do the(1) tree removal for FREE
failure to grant me permission to remove the hazard or to have it addressed & resolved will result in the following action:
Excavator insurance will be contacted ( already had to file a claim against them for backing dump truck into utility pole & breaking conduit for my underground electric service) & secondary claim filed!
I will contact again my HO policy holder & ask them to pursue claim of creating a hazard, actually PA crime codes has a section stating that anyone who willfully engages in an act/action that would or could possibly cause damage to ones property, person or other they are guilty of: this depends on dollar amount of damages over $5000 is a felony!
I may even have to file a complaint with the local authorities in regard to this matter, to safe gaurd myself!
I even put in the letter to neighbors I would if need be help in the trees in the rear of the property as they grading in a way that many cherries/locusts & maples now have a severe lean toward their house, I told them for a fee lower than my competition I would do this; trying to make harmony here!!
we will see & I`ll let ya know!!
Thanks
LXT..................
Here is my prediction:
Neighbor will let you cut down the tree for free, then ##### in small ways about how it was done. No appreciation for your tolerance or "fairness" will be expressed in any way.
Then they will hold a grudge against you for the next 20 years, always remembering what a prick you were to make them loose that $10,000 shade tree, seeking petty ways to get even.
Neighbor will let you cut down the tree for free, then ##### in small ways about how it was done. No appreciation for your tolerance or "fairness" will be expressed in any way.
Then they will hold a grudge against you for the next 20 years, always remembering what a prick you were to make them loose that $10,000 shade tree, seeking petty ways to get even.
So what you are saying is...drop it on their house while making it look like an accident of nature!! $10,000 shade tree....holy jumpin meriah! that will be better than me sueing them for preventable damages intentionally and maliciously caused by them thus resulting in me owning their house & dropping trees through it just for the sake of seeing what would it would look like...LOL!
Honestly, Im not worried about any grudges...if anyone including them was in my position I imagine the same would be done! I if anything am trying to avoid a bad situation.
LXT..................
I don't guess I would drop it on their house, either. Accidentally or otherwise; mostly because that just isn't the sort of thing I would do.
But that wouldn't keep me from wishing I had.
But that wouldn't keep me from wishing I had.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
more fomr gilman
Lxt...
Just in case you have any thoughts of remorse for cutting that tree.... and for all those that want to learn something here...
Here is another quote from Gilman's sight.. which talks about how important the distance away from the trunk that roots are cut... NO MORE THAN 5X TRUNK DIAMETER...from the pics it looks as though the machine came within 1x DBH..
from http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/rootpruneguidelines.html
"How close to the trunk can roots be cut?
Well, the answer appears to depend on who you ask. For mature trees, some experts recommend not cutting roots closer than 6 to 8 inches from the trunk for each inch in trunk diameter. That means stay at least 10 feet away from a 20 inch tree! Others are more realistic and state that we should root prune no closer to the trunk than a distance equal to 3 times the trunk diameter, preferably 5 times the trunk diameter. Which ever rule-of-thumb you decide to use, do so knowing that pruning roots on trees can result in trees falling over or dying. While root pruned large trees on well drained soil may not fall over because of deeper sinker roots under the trunk, they can and have. There are fewer deep roots holding the tree up on poorly drained and compacted soils.
And from another page:
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/rootpruneguidelines.html
"Trenching and digging in the soil near trees can cut roots, and this can damage the tree resulting in tree decline or the tree falling over. This can cause liability and safety concerns. Root pruning is more injurious to old mature trees than it is for younger more vigorous trees. Cutting roots greater than about one inch diameter during trenching and digging can mean problems for the tree. In some cases roots of one to three inches diameter represent the major structural roots holding the tree upright.
The impact from pruning roots depends on several factors (see table below). Damage typically increases with more cuts, bigger cuts, and cuts made closer to the trunk. Root pruning, trenching, and other construction activities close to the trunk result in more injury on shallow, compacted soils or on soils that drain poorly than on well drained soils. This is due to the shallow roots common on sites with shallow soils or high water table. Trees that are leaning are poor candidates for root pruning. Prune roots only with sharp tools to avoid tearing behind the cuts."
In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, Guy has decided to back off his position and sit this one out!
Thank you Guy... (and I really mean that for all that you have done for the industry and for me individually)
Lxt...
Just in case you have any thoughts of remorse for cutting that tree.... and for all those that want to learn something here...
Here is another quote from Gilman's sight.. which talks about how important the distance away from the trunk that roots are cut... NO MORE THAN 5X TRUNK DIAMETER...from the pics it looks as though the machine came within 1x DBH..
from http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/rootpruneguidelines.html
"How close to the trunk can roots be cut?
Well, the answer appears to depend on who you ask. For mature trees, some experts recommend not cutting roots closer than 6 to 8 inches from the trunk for each inch in trunk diameter. That means stay at least 10 feet away from a 20 inch tree! Others are more realistic and state that we should root prune no closer to the trunk than a distance equal to 3 times the trunk diameter, preferably 5 times the trunk diameter. Which ever rule-of-thumb you decide to use, do so knowing that pruning roots on trees can result in trees falling over or dying. While root pruned large trees on well drained soil may not fall over because of deeper sinker roots under the trunk, they can and have. There are fewer deep roots holding the tree up on poorly drained and compacted soils.
And from another page:
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/woody/rootpruneguidelines.html
"Trenching and digging in the soil near trees can cut roots, and this can damage the tree resulting in tree decline or the tree falling over. This can cause liability and safety concerns. Root pruning is more injurious to old mature trees than it is for younger more vigorous trees. Cutting roots greater than about one inch diameter during trenching and digging can mean problems for the tree. In some cases roots of one to three inches diameter represent the major structural roots holding the tree upright.
The impact from pruning roots depends on several factors (see table below). Damage typically increases with more cuts, bigger cuts, and cuts made closer to the trunk. Root pruning, trenching, and other construction activities close to the trunk result in more injury on shallow, compacted soils or on soils that drain poorly than on well drained soils. This is due to the shallow roots common on sites with shallow soils or high water table. Trees that are leaning are poor candidates for root pruning. Prune roots only with sharp tools to avoid tearing behind the cuts."
In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, Guy has decided to back off his position and sit this one out!
Thank you Guy... (and I really mean that for all that you have done for the industry and for me individually)
squad143
Tree Guy
I'm not a lawyer, but it sounds like youre doing the right thing by documenting everything. I would not touch the tree (root pruning or crown reduction) as I feel that I could be brought into "Fault" if the tree should die or fall on someone's house. Your best to talk to a professional (lawyer)that knows the laws in your area.
Also check with the city to make sure buddy's building permits are up to date.
#1, untill I get written permission from these people that is exactly my thought, I do any type of preventative work of my own accord...then I may be to blame to! Nope, Ill document & do it all legal like, file the complaint, etc..
LXT...............
Point of clarity--there is no debate possible where evidence is so sorely lacking and emotion
is so overwhelming.O and you are still confusing Gilman's words on trenching vs. scraping.
murphy4trees
Addicted to ArboristSite
WTF Guy,
Take another look at the photos
Evidence is anything but lacking... and certainly nor sorely lacking...
The man said his neighbor removed 2'+ of earth right up to the root flare... And then the neighbor came in after digging and backfilled along the edge of the "trench" to smooth over the change in grade. That is the "evidence"... Are you disputing that? That would be calling Lxt a liar, which is rediculous. It is clear in the photos that 2' is about the change in grade and that the excavation was done well inside the suggestd clearance of 3-5x diameter of tree (even not taking into account the backfilling). Are you trying to argue that 2' is scraping as opposed to trenching? Perhaps you'd like to define the terms "scraping" and "trenching" for us. Do you want me to email those photos to Gilman so we all can see what he thinks?
And as far as emotions go... I don't have much emotion one way or the other about wether the trees should be removed or not... I think they should be removed, and that is only a thought... not an emotion... My only emotion here is bewilderment... (if that qualifies as an emotion).. that you would continue in your line of reasoning...
No confusion there Murph: he is just working off a different set of values than the rest of us are. He likes trees a bit more and quite a bit differently than most of the rest of us.
But that is not new news; we have seen this all before in other threads. It takes all types to make the happy collection of nuts we have at AS, so I just figure everybody has to put up with me, just like I put up with them.
But that is not new news; we have seen this all before in other threads. It takes all types to make the happy collection of nuts we have at AS, so I just figure everybody has to put up with me, just like I put up with them.
Seer, I understand your love of trees, however after 20+ years in this biz & seeing tree(s) fail after having less damage done to them from similar work its my position that they need addressed now!
I think we all agree no course of action is wrong! if no course of action is taken then who is liable? 1-2-5-10 years from now doesnt matter!! the decline & hazard were prematurely brought on by excavation all the while being mindful that if failure should happen...it will come my way!
I wouldnt have wanted to take this tree down, believe me! it provides wonderful shade.....Now it provides a hazard!
I wish I would have taken pictures earlier so the extent of the damage could be seen more clearly, I can rest assure you they easily removed 2ft of earth. even if I followed your advice/suggestions there will not be enough soil at the right level for the root system to re-take if it would re-take at all, you & Murph`s knowledge in this area is much better than mine so I may be wrong!
LXT.............
I think we all agree no course of action is wrong! if no course of action is taken then who is liable? 1-2-5-10 years from now doesnt matter!! the decline & hazard were prematurely brought on by excavation all the while being mindful that if failure should happen...it will come my way!
I wouldnt have wanted to take this tree down, believe me! it provides wonderful shade.....Now it provides a hazard!
I wish I would have taken pictures earlier so the extent of the damage could be seen more clearly, I can rest assure you they easily removed 2ft of earth. even if I followed your advice/suggestions there will not be enough soil at the right level for the root system to re-take if it would re-take at all, you & Murph`s knowledge in this area is much better than mine so I may be wrong!
LXT.............
Tree is hurt but not hazardous
lxt you may be less liable if you prune the part over your land than if you don't (and know you should have)
What % roots are lost--30%? 40%? Attached is a tree that lost 90%, and will grow fine next year (just about to be installed by my weekend crew). Yes, it is young, an advantage, but lxt's maple has a bigger advantage, having roots growing in the earth right now! If you did something to help the remaining roots grow that would do good for the tree.
Further kvetching
online and getting murph's Irish up (but i luv ya dan you know i do) will not help retain that tree's contributions to your property. Have you even mulched your own part of the root system? Sheesh! Lots of alibis for doing nothing.
I'm outta here!
lxt you may be less liable if you prune the part over your land than if you don't (and know you should have)
What % roots are lost--30%? 40%? Attached is a tree that lost 90%, and will grow fine next year (just about to be installed by my weekend crew). Yes, it is young, an advantage, but lxt's maple has a bigger advantage, having roots growing in the earth right now! If you did something to help the remaining roots grow that would do good for the tree.
Further kvetching
online and getting murph's Irish up (but i luv ya dan you know i do) will not help retain that tree's contributions to your property. Have you even mulched your own part of the root system? Sheesh! Lots of alibis for doing nothing.I'm outta here!
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SOooo if I prune the tree & it lives I did the right thing, but if I prune the tree & it still dies(which it will) then I will be partly to blame...YES?
I totally disagree with your unfounded reasoning, every thing I read from the study guide & the brochure handouts from the ISA, along with internet advice from professors of arboriculture/horticulture say different.
A good friend of mine works at the Penn state co-op & Lab, Ive got advice off him before, he looked at it & his diagnosis is......tree will show decline within 2yrs & suffer defoliation probably more toward neighbors side...thus the "life" side of the tree will be the weighted side...MY SIDE! so guess what that means?
with in 5yrs tree will probably be totally defoliateddue to, ph balance of the soil has been disturbed, compaction in evident along with possible hydraulic & diesel fuel leaks throughout, trees have sustained upper bark damage, limbs torn off & otherwise have been beaten up by machinery!! NOT too mention the digging up & tearing out of 1/2 the root system!
The point you are missing GUY is: they dont care! they are not going to do anything, they hope by doing nothing it will be OK! (said in a yelling fashion).
I am not going to touch anything by way of pruning, mulching or other!!!! I am going to record the facts, complain & should there be a failure causing damage to my property.....& nothing was done in the mean time..........Ill own their newly constructed home!!
less liable??? I dont think the Law or insurance companies will see it that way!! more like.......Contributed to the failure!
mulched my side? theres 8 inches of snow on the ground...you think this tree will heal over the dormant season? & how much more energy will it use come spring? alibis......NO! commonsense would be the better term!
sheesh, I need a hammer to get through!! let you all know what happens, when it happens, excavators insurance is being made aware!!
LXT...............
I totally disagree with your unfounded reasoning, every thing I read from the study guide & the brochure handouts from the ISA, along with internet advice from professors of arboriculture/horticulture say different.
A good friend of mine works at the Penn state co-op & Lab, Ive got advice off him before, he looked at it & his diagnosis is......tree will show decline within 2yrs & suffer defoliation probably more toward neighbors side...thus the "life" side of the tree will be the weighted side...MY SIDE! so guess what that means?
with in 5yrs tree will probably be totally defoliateddue to, ph balance of the soil has been disturbed, compaction in evident along with possible hydraulic & diesel fuel leaks throughout, trees have sustained upper bark damage, limbs torn off & otherwise have been beaten up by machinery!! NOT too mention the digging up & tearing out of 1/2 the root system!
The point you are missing GUY is: they dont care! they are not going to do anything, they hope by doing nothing it will be OK! (said in a yelling fashion).
I am not going to touch anything by way of pruning, mulching or other!!!! I am going to record the facts, complain & should there be a failure causing damage to my property.....& nothing was done in the mean time..........Ill own their newly constructed home!!
less liable??? I dont think the Law or insurance companies will see it that way!! more like.......Contributed to the failure!
mulched my side? theres 8 inches of snow on the ground...you think this tree will heal over the dormant season? & how much more energy will it use come spring? alibis......NO! commonsense would be the better term!
sheesh, I need a hammer to get through!! let you all know what happens, when it happens, excavators insurance is being made aware!!
LXT...............
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