unions

[Samlock]

That's a good point, you always need villains to defend you against the other crooks.

The American union tradition comes from the South European syndicalist tradition. North European tradition is called a corporative tradition. Those two are two different worlds. Syndicalist organisations have a tendency to become antisocial, even destructive. That's a lesson in history. In fact, Italian style Cosa Nostra or American Hell's Angels are syndicalist organisations at it's purest form. That's the price you just have to pay for not being slaved. We, here, just have to put up our own crooks, the trade union bosses, who transform in few years from feller to suit, driving around capitol street on their fancy cars and having expensive dinners with the top politicians and executives....

By the way, years ago I found among the left papers of my late grandfather his I.W.W. card. He lived his years from 2 to 28 in the USA, returned to the old country in 1935. It didn't really surprise me he used to be a member of IWW, as a Finnish immigrant and all. But it was just in that very moment I realized what he was talking about his life as a young man in America. He told me was wandering around the continent as a "Hoopo" (that means a "fool" in Finnish language). As a child I remember I wondered what made him so confused in America. Well, he had a habit to end up sleeping in a ditch on his way back home from the village, so I deducted there must have been a bar in America as well... But as I found his old union card it came to me he must have referred to a "Hobo", but he pronounced it in Finglish he spoke across the pond.

 

[2muchgrass]

That's a good point, you always need villains to defend you against the other crooks.

The American union tradition comes from the South European syndicalist tradition. North European tradition is called a corporative tradition. Those two are two different worlds. Syndicalist organisations have a tendency to become antisocial, even destructive. That's a lesson in history. In fact, Italian style Cosa Nostra or American Hell's Angels are syndicalist organisations at it's purest form. That's the price you just have to pay for not being slaved. We, here, just have to put up our own crooks, the trade union bosses, who transform in few years from feller to suit, driving around capitol street on their fancy cars and having expensive dinners with the top politicians and executives....

By the way, years ago I found among the left papers of my late grandfather his I.W.W. card. He lived his years from 2 to 28 in the USA, returned to the old country in 1935. It didn't really surprise me he used to be a member of IWW, as a Finnish immigrant and all. But it was just in that very moment I realized what he was talking about his life as a young man in America. He told me was wandering around the continent as a "Hoopo" (that means a "fool" in Finnish language). As a child I remember I wondered what made him so confused in America. Well, he had a habit to end up sleeping in a ditch on his way back home from the village, so I deducted there must have been a bar in America as well... But as I found his old union card it came to me he must have referred to a "Hobo", but he pronounced it in Finglish he spoke across the pond.

I have no illusions about union leadership and their integrity or nobility. They are there to line their own pockets and get as much as they can while they can, of this I am certain. When a union bankrupts a company, it does it to set an example to other businesses and they don't give a furry rat's behind about the collateral damage to the membership. I have very mixed feelings about that tactic but I guess I can afford to as it never happened to me. Had I been a victim of the tactic, I'm certain my feelings would be a little less mixed.
I worked for a major chemical company for about ten years when the Steelworkers attempted to unionize us. Historically, we had received COLAs just one or two points behind the national average. Everyone was happy.
We watched profits skyrocket one year and the top executives receive astronomical bonuses while we once again got the one point behind the average COLA.
When the union started the drive, our next COLA was 3 points above the average, medical coverage got a substantial improvement and for the first time that I could recall we got a Christmas bonus. The union gave up, packed their bags and left.
Yeah, you guessed it. Next year we got exactly a $.01 raise. A whole penny.
Please, don't tell me we don't need the crooks. I'd much rather have a crook behind me than a politician on my side. I know where a crook is coming from. You know the difference between a catfish and a politician? One is a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other is a fish.

 

[madhatte]

OK, I just had some of my beliefs shaken up a bit. Watch the video, read the story, and then let's talk about 3 things: 1) Who let this happen? 2) How widespread is this? 3) Would the unions have responded the same if the student workers had been from Mexico rather than Europe and Africa?

Found the story quite by accident. Figured this was an appropriate place to post it. We may need to move this thread to Politics, though, as it's a pretty loaded subject.

 

[2muchgrass]

OK, I just had some of my beliefs shaken up a bit. Watch the video, read the story, and then let's talk about 3 things: 1) Who let this happen? 2) How widespread is this? 3) Would the unions have responded the same if the student workers had been from Mexico rather than Europe and Africa?

Found the story quite by accident. Figured this was an appropriate place to post it. We may need to move this thread to Politics, though, as it's a pretty loaded subject.

McDonalds does it (or did) every year with Eastern European students. The group I met were from Poland. At the time, I was on disability and was driving a cab. I drove them all over hell and creation finding them a cheaper place to live and helped them get jobs at regular wages. The pre-arranged landlord was charging them $950 a month EACH for rent and had 8 to 10 students in his two bedroom condo.
Communication was difficult and they were pretty suspicious of me at first. When finally I left them pretty well situated, they were pretty teary eyed that a total stranger would go out of his way, day after day, until they were properly squared away and were actually able to save money.
A situation like that has to have been done with the cooperation of officials at the Federal level.
I don't know how widespread it is but we already know two companies that do it.
You know, the workers don't have to be living here for them to do it. Is it any less wrong if the work place and workers are in Uzbekistan while the company is headquartered in New York? How about auto parts being made in Mexico? I have no idea how they are treated.
I believe it is widespread as all get out. It's what I've been saying. If they think they can get away with it, they will. Unions won't let them get away with it (unless of course the proper palms are crossed with enough silver).

 

[Gologit]

That's a good point, you always need villains to defend you against the other crooks.

The American union tradition comes from the South European syndicalist tradition. North European tradition is called a corporative tradition. Those two are two different worlds. Syndicalist organisations have a tendency to become antisocial, even destructive. That's a lesson in history. In fact, Italian style Cosa Nostra or American Hell's Angels are syndicalist organisations at it's purest form. That's the price you just have to pay for not being slaved. We, here, just have to put up our own crooks, the trade union bosses, who transform in few years from feller to suit, driving around capitol street on their fancy cars and having expensive dinners with the top politicians and executives....

By the way, years ago I found among the left papers of my late grandfather his I.W.W. card. He lived his years from 2 to 28 in the USA, returned to the old country in 1935. It didn't really surprise me he used to be a member of IWW, as a Finnish immigrant and all. But it was just in that very moment I realized what he was talking about his life as a young man in America. He told me was wandering around the continent as a "Hoopo" (that means a "fool" in Finnish language). As a child I remember I wondered what made him so confused in America. Well, he had a habit to end up sleeping in a ditch on his way back home from the village, so I deducted there must have been a bar in America as well... But as I found his old union card it came to me he must have referred to a "Hobo", but he pronounced it in Finglish he spoke across the pond.

Great post. I had some relatives who were Wobblies, too. They were proud of it.
The Left Coast timber industry has a long history of labor strife. The unions in those days changed a lot of things for the better for the working man. Now? Not so much. They seem to have lost touch with the needs of the rank and file.
Over the years I've worked for three different companies that were union. They're all out of business now. I have to believe that one of the reasons for their demise was the union. Ridiculous work rules and a very unrealistic wage structure coupled with a sagging economy that the unions refused to recognize resulted in the companies shutting their doors and the workers being left to fend for themselves. But, even while unemployed, the workers were still encouraged to pay their union dues.

 

[one.man.band]

opinions vary as seen in all the previous posts.

most if not all folks in a union are middle class. the middle class took the hit in the mortgage crisis, losing homes. then wound up usings savings to try to save their homes. finally losing there jobs altogether. middle class pays most of taxes, more so than the rich, while the poorer folk get taken care of.

now it seems that the working man is blamed for creating all the problems. we want to make a decent wage to keep our home, send a kid to college, and maybe someday......if we can ever afford it, retire.

took a union job over 22 years ago. pay was just over 1/2 of wage compared to non-union folks doing same job. did this not to be rich, but to provide for family: with job security, health benefits and a reasonable pension. watched as folks who had higher positions retired through the years, and when they did their job position retired with them. now the job was not available for anyone. watched, how every five years during contract time, there was no money for raises, and/or employer share of health insurance. stuck with it for job security. saw the waste in hiring temporary non-union workers standing right next to me, making almost twice my wage, because there were not enough permanent employees left for the workload. again i stuck withwith it for job security.

those temporary worker's pay rates were higher because they did not contribute towards a pension, received no health insurance, dental or eyecare. company said they were cheaper in the long run.

its all akin to a humongous hardware chain moving into a city. all the local hardware stores that actually employed folks who knew and could give advise, eventually shut down. they could not compete with paying taxes on inventory while the warehouse style stores get away with paying none on their in-store stock. once all the local hardware stores are gone.....then the single warehouse store can charge whatever they want for goods with no competition.

thats what is happening to the union middle class.

if there are no unions....say goodbye to something called the weekend; healthcare benefits; pension; etc. no competition. when there are 50 people competing for a single job, does anyone think that that job will have good pay? .......when the company will hire one of those 50 who is willing to work for peanuts.

wonder why there are no jobs available.

my 2 cents.

 

[ihookem]

"But even while unemployed workers were encouraged to pay union dues." Been there, and refused to pay my union dues when layed off. They yanked my insurance card after they already gave me the card assuring me I have 3 months left. Got the letter Dec. 24, 2004 stating I no longer have insurance with them and any claim made after Nov. 30, 2004 will not be covered. So If I had a heart attack I would not have insurance. NICE. That was the end of my carpenters union Local 344 . I'm sure they will have some lame excuse when I start to claim my pension too. Got real tired of them telling me I better vote for AL Gore too. I am even more disturbed at the union THUGS that raided the port last week, vandalizing and taking security guards hostage. And don't even get me started the way the teachers union acted this spring here in Wisconsin. I have nothing good to say about unions. If america could get back half the jobs the unions killed we would have more work than we need and demand for "good hard workers" would would raise wages to what unions are paying anyway. I know as for me I when I went self employed I made a little less per hr. but had twice the hrs. so I raised my wages 8 bucks an hr and was making same per hr as union, and way more hrs. Just my experience.
Now 3 of the 4 union shops I worked for are gone. The last one is doing very well however.