ur opinion pls

[treevet]

Last week got a call from a client I worked 1 time for in Sept. Seems the city, my city is re doing a street that runs right next to the oak I worked on doing what I call "triage" after the hurricane that blew through here. Removed some large snapped limbs over a traffic area for safety, later to come back in leaf and prune the tree.

The tree is a 51" DBH Pin oak (Quercus palustris). They are to put a sidewalk about 8 feet from the base that will go 12" deep and 5' wide. 12 feet from the tree goes a curb that will be excavated 18" and beyond that the road gets excavated 12" or more. They will likely kill this tree. I estimate the CRZ Critical Root Zone at approx. 38 feet.

Mon. morning at 9 am 3 reps from the city are there along with the HO's, some tree advocates, myself as the CA for the tree and a city sponsored CA and another UFB member I called to be a witness.

Upon my making it verbally clear for all to recognize that there was nothing they could do to mitigate the damage they were to put on this oak they began to take the track to impugn the health of this 120' genetic icon.

I was having none of that and all began to get emotional.

When all the smoke cleared it was obvious that we were all there to just show the city accomodated the HO's and tree's side. But in reality what they were doing was covering their a$$ for worries of future law suit.

To the tree's distinct disadvantage, it is dormant and the project is started already at the other end of the street and will be there in 2 weeks.

I announced that if someone was going to build a pool on their property it would be fine to trim the neighbor's trees and even cut roots as long as it didn't (did not) compromise the health of the tree. I asked the public works director, wasn't he concerned with being in this same situation? His reply was "is this really the situation?" with a wry smile.

We have considered going to the newspaper, green advocates, civil groups such as ACLU, etc. Any opinions on the proper moves or is there none and you "cannot fight city hall"?

 

[prentice110]

Ive gone through similar situations like this, although I dont know what to tell you about the one part of question, I can relate to the frustration. A few years back the city annexed a neighborhood. The first thing they did was put in sewers and storm drains. A client of mine had a very large silver maple. It was at least 4' dbh and probably 90' tall. The city cut more than half of the roots of this tree to put the sewer in. They were on a corner lot and the tree was on the corner. within 3 months the tree shown signs of decline and a year later was over a third dead. My company along with 2 others were called in as consulting arborists because the H.O. was going after the city for the cost of the removal. All arborists agreed. Unfortunately the city had "plausible deniability", and got away with murder.

 

[treevet]

Thanks for reply. Wyoming, Ohio, Tree City USA. My home town. Tree loving community. They could just recover the current 120 plus yard section of road with maybe 3 houses involved. Forget about the sidewalks or put an elevated sidewalk over the roots. No impact whatsoever. So they pay this hired ASCA report writer. Don't know what he is gonna say but from what he mentioned to me it will go something like... some deadwood indicating low vitality (not), over mature indicating in a decline (was mentioned), maybe include some hazard issues like co doms (cables) and poor architecture (not), hole in canopy (hurricane) and who knows what else.

Death certificate leaving the city liable for killing (it would perpetuate for a long time with no impact) this tree but owing nothing as its value has been diminished by imagination.

 

[prentice110]

pretty much the same with this one. Funny tho, there wasnt a stick of dead in it before the sewer went in. In another thing I was called in for, the local conservation district was catching heat for clear cutting. There argument was that they were trying to restore prairie land as well as protecting the oaks from the "invasive" buckthorn. Problem was they were using heavy equipment instead of cutting. I think they were using a seppi or another like a hydro ax, any way are argument was that there was no way the operator could see if he was wiping out smaller oaks, and that the mature ones had grown accostom to the wind break. They completely dismissed us and cleared everything around these oaks. Sure enough after the first few wind storms alot of the oaks sustained heavy storm damage.

 

[treevet]

I have easily 100 texts on arboriculture in my library. Many are armed with tree/construction conflict info. But tomorrow morning there should be a package from the ISA containing 2 books on my front porch. One is a BMP on trees and construction damage and the other is the also hot off the press ANSI (Construction injury prevention, etc.) book that will be the choice of individuals that choose the judiciary system. This one will not go to court. The Doctor/HO. has already said so. Also I ordered the vid. on tree root injury ramifications and prevention. (ordered a hat and couple of other things just for fun too).

 

[treevet]

pretty much the same with this one. Funny tho, there wasnt a stick of dead in it before the sewer went in. In another thing I was called in for, the local conservation district was catching heat for clear cutting. There argument was that they were trying to restore prairie land as well as protecting the oaks from the "invasive" buckthorn. Problem was they were using heavy equipment instead of cutting. I think they were using a seppi or another like a hydro ax, any way are argument was that there was no way the operator could see if he was wiping out smaller oaks, and that the mature ones had grown accostom to the wind break. They completely dismissed us and cleared everything around these oaks. Sure enough after the first few wind storms alot of the oaks sustained heavy storm damage.

It is neat the way trees get used to stuff. They have to do it gradually tho.

 

[prentice110]

It is neat the way trees get used to stuff. They have to do it gradually tho.

Oh definitely. It probably took them 40 years or more of them to be surrounded by that kind of wind break to start growing weaker limb wood. I always find there little quirks like that amazing. Its one of the only things that keeps me doing this kind of work. Its also the same reason I love splitting firewood. You never know what your going to find in that log. A callused over cut from half a century ago, a stress fracture that couldve given way at any time on a piece you limb hitched to big the week before. Sometimes even the occasional bullet. By the way, what do you think of THE ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO PRUNING, by Dr. Edward Gilman?

 

[treevet]

I like Gilman's book but where is the research. I prefer Shigo's Tree Pruning, A Worldwide Photo Guide. He did the legwork himself. Both great reference books. Can't know too much.

Speaking of discovering tree things. Couple of months ago we took down a huge storm destroyed oak with a crane over a tennis court. Giant cavity inside. Did the flush and found the tree completely alive INSIDE. Seems the woundwood had rolled on both sides of the opening and instead of ram's horning it continued to grow around the cavity inside the tree. Never seen or heard of that anywhere. My groundy was amazed. He's a CA and smart enough to appreciate it.

 

[BC WetCoast]

Why do they need to excavate 12" for a sidewalk? Seems to me they could ramp over the root zone using structural soil.

You probably have a better chance of getting the sidewalk changed than the curb and gutter. However, the curb and gutter are going to reduce the rooting zone by very little as the roots probably don't go under the road now.

What is the percentage loss in rooting zone due to the sidewalk? curb and gutter?

I don't work with oaks very often, how sensitive are they to root disruption. I know beeches can't tolerate it, but many of the conifer species we work with can tolerate it with some pruning and knowing that some deadwooding will be necessary in the future.

 

[prentice110]

I like Gilman's book but where is the research. I prefer Shigo's Tree Pruning, A Worldwide Photo Guide. He did the legwork himself. Both great reference books. Can't know too much.

Speaking of discovering tree things. Couple of months ago we took down a huge storm destroyed oak with a crane over a tennis court. Giant cavity inside. Did the flush and found the tree completely alive INSIDE. Seems the woundwood had rolled on both sides of the opening and instead of ram's horning it continued to grow around the cavity inside the tree. Never seen or heard of that anywhere. My groundy was amazed. He's a CA and smart enough to appreciate it.

Ive only ever seen that once before, so long ago that I cant remember what kind of tree it was, and was so young I didnt understand the significance, even though 2 20 year vets were pointing it out to me.

 

[prentice110]

I don't work with oaks very often, how sensitive are they to root disruption. I know beeches can't tolerate it, but many of the conifer species we work with can tolerate it with some pruning and knowing that some deadwooding will be necessary in the future.

Oaks hate construction of any kind. Cant take it at all. You can kill an entire grove of them by changing the way a creek runs 500 yards away.

 

[brnchbrkr]

Last week got a call from a client I worked 1 time for in Sept. Seems the city, my city is re doing a street that runs right next to the oak I worked on doing what I call "triage" after the hurricane that blew through here. Removed some large snapped limbs over a traffic area for safety, later to come back in leaf and prune the tree.

The tree is a 51" DBH Pin oak (Quercus palustris). They are to put a sidewalk about 8 feet from the base that will go 12" deep and 5' wide. 12 feet from the tree goes a curb that will be excavated 18" and beyond that the road gets excavated 12" or more. They will likely kill this tree. I estimate the CRZ Critical Root Zone at approx. 38 feet.

Mon. morning at 9 am 3 reps from the city are there along with the HO's, some tree advocates, myself as the CA for the tree and a city sponsored CA and another UFB member I called to be a witness.

Upon my making it verbally clear for all to recognize that there was nothing they could do to mitigate the damage they were to put on this oak they began to take the track to impugn the health of this 120' genetic icon.

I was having none of that and all began to get emotional.

When all the smoke cleared it was obvious that we were all there to just show the city accomodated the HO's and tree's side. But in reality what they were doing was covering their a$$ for worries of future law suit.

To the tree's distinct disadvantage, it is dormant and the project is started already at the other end of the street and will be there in 2 weeks.

I announced that if someone was going to build a pool on their property it would be fine to trim the neighbor's trees and even cut roots as long as it didn't (did not) compromise the health of the tree. I asked the public works director, wasn't he concerned with being in this same situation? His reply was "is this really the situation?" with a wry smile.

We have considered going to the newspaper, green advocates, civil groups such as ACLU, etc. Any opinions on the proper moves or is there none and you "cannot fight city hall"?

Maybe you could be in charge of the excavation of the sidewalk and curb and gutter.

Someone on here, in their web page say they are moving trees without spading, using air or water to remove the soil and leave the roots.

Once you have the zone widened and the right depth, you can see the roots involved and make a decison. Maybe keeping the heavy equipment off an area around the Oak and just use wheel barrows. The city officials might let you supervise this construction to try and keep the pick axe and bob cats, dump trucks off the CRZ. And just use sharp cuts where needed verses sledge hammers....

Pics Plz! ;-)

 

[treevet]

Why do they need to excavate 12" for a sidewalk? Seems to me they could ramp over the root zone using structural soil.

You probably have a better chance of getting the sidewalk changed than the curb and gutter. However, the curb and gutter are going to reduce the rooting zone by very little as the roots probably don't go under the road now.

What is the percentage loss in rooting zone due to the sidewalk? curb and gutter?

I don't work with oaks very often, how sensitive are they to root disruption. I know beeches can't tolerate it, but many of the conifer species we work with can tolerate it with some pruning and knowing that some deadwooding will be necessary in the future.

The sidewalk is going over an embankment and grade on it will be over 6" excavation. I assume more will be needed for base. I would like to see a innovative design to give no injury such as a boardwalk. They just increased the width of our sidewalks to 5 ft.

Lots of roots will be under this dated road on this century plus old oak IMO. There will maybe 30 percent root loss on this overly mature tree I suppose.

This species is up there with beech in sensitivity to grade change.

 

[treevet]

Maybe you could be in charge of the excavation of the sidewalk and curb and gutter.

Someone on here, in their web page say they are moving trees without spading, using air or water to remove the soil and leave the roots.

Once you have the zone widened and the right depth, you can see the roots involved and make a decison. Maybe keeping the heavy equipment off an area around the Oak and just use wheel barrows. The city officials might let you supervise this construction to try and keep the pick axe and bob cats, dump trucks off the CRZ. And just use sharp cuts where needed verses sledge hammers....

Pics Plz! ;-)

I'll come up with some pics. They won't let me be in charge, but I would love to see them air spade the curb to tree span (slight embankment) so they are aware of the root damage they are doing prior to excavation. I am going to suggest that. After that it is all heavy equipment out of necessity. Hopefully some clean cuts will be made but it may not make any difference.

In my long experience with this kind of thing, in a year or 2 you will see Hypoxelon on the trunk and later on the branches and I have never seen an oak recover after this.

 

[Boa07]

This may well be after the fact to the point of being academic but my approach in such situations is to try to bring the decision makers to recognise the value of the asset they are going to damage....despite the year (2009) it is amazing how many officials still fail to understand and internalise the inherent value ($$$s) that established urban trees represent.

I often think that it is less of a case of fighting city hall as it is laying out in the public arena a range of practical alternatives that provide the objectives of city hall whilst protecting what is a very valuable asset. Obviously how you achieve that....being the provider of solutions....varies dramatically job to job, it being your city you might have more allies within the halls than you think?

 

[treevet]

This may well be after the fact to the point of being academic but my approach in such situations is to try to bring the decision makers to recognise the value of the asset they are going to damage....despite the year (2009) it is amazing how many officials still fail to understand and internalise the inherent value ($$$s) that established urban trees represent.

I often think that it is less of a case of fighting city hall as it is laying out in the public arena a range of practical alternatives that provide the objectives of city hall whilst protecting what is a very valuable asset. Obviously how you achieve that....being the provider of solutions....varies dramatically job to job, it being your city you might have more allies within the halls than you think?

Thanks for your input Sean. Believe me I have put forth my feelings in regards to the value of this tree to the community. This is why in an earlier post I noted that their tact had turned to impugning the health, age and condition of this tree.

The city management has a history of subterfuge and I have been involved in other battles in my over 30 years here. No need to elaborate but I could.
In this case the neighbors all said they were not notified of this project and there was no public notice. They found out with the sounds of heavy equipment. It was reassuring to see all the neighbors at the meeting bright and early Monday morning though

As for providing solutions....there are already pipes and building material in the root area of the tree and the huge back digger (?) is less than 50 feet away. They promised to wait for the 2 reports, one of which is being paid for by the city, although both the out of state expert (?) and the city person that brought them there both denied this when I confronted them but later the PW Director told me he brought him in. Need to get their stories straight.

This project is full bore ahead and they are, as I said earlier, only involving the opposition to cover their a$$ in the event of future law suit (I was actually told that).

 

[Boa07]

Hmmm sounds like the available options for you are limited then....not a happy place to be in, but one that I and the fellow Arborist in who's company I work have found ourselves.

In those instances where others decide to ignore our advice our recommendations and our professional assessment we make it crystal clear that they would be well advised to have us on their side...rather than being opposing overseers of the project.

Since I suspect like me you base your position on tree management on established defendable assessments (recognising that we all can get emotive when we are ignored or our advice treated with no respect) there is no problem when we expect city hall to follow the same BMP's that others are expected to adhere to.

When we take a stand it is underpinned by our knowledge and understanding of tree physiology and BMP...as consultants we cannot force others to follow our advice but we can make darn certain that their rejection of our advice is documented on the public record, this is especially important when it comes to trees with local or district significance.

It certainly is very disappointing when other members of our profession do not act with integrity, our display a gross lack of understanding of basic tree biology, let alone the BMP's.

 

[treevet]

 

[treevet]

 

[treevet]