ur opinion pls
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treevet
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treevet
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Just on the road side of the railroad tie is the outer sidewalk excavation maybe 10 to 12 " deep. At the curb is the new curb and 18"excavation and the road excavation. Today they did the pipe you see on the side down the middle of the road. Had to be at least an 18" excavation.
I calculated the CRZ to reach past the front of the neighbor's house across the street and half of that, the kill area, reaches almost across the road on the neighbor's side.
According to city mgt. they have to put in a sidewalk and it cannot be put across the street due to drains and other utilities underground.
I calculated the CRZ to reach past the front of the neighbor's house across the street and half of that, the kill area, reaches almost across the road on the neighbor's side.
According to city mgt. they have to put in a sidewalk and it cannot be put across the street due to drains and other utilities underground.
dave in one city pw said based on a CA's report that they had to kill 6 of 8 big live oaks due to sewer work due to CRZ issues. a colleague proposed to go in with an air tool and find out where the roots were and selectively prune them per need. now all 8 trees will stay.
re sidewalk alternatives do you not have the infrastructure book?
if the asca report writer observes nothing but constraints and makes no note of strengths then they are not objective or competent--tell them to look at their own SPP.
ANSI is your friend--note the SHALLs in there and push for them; they are due diligence for the city and they should be followed.
re sidewalk alternatives do you not have the infrastructure book?
if the asca report writer observes nothing but constraints and makes no note of strengths then they are not objective or competent--tell them to look at their own SPP.
ANSI is your friend--note the SHALLs in there and push for them; they are due diligence for the city and they should be followed.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
No Guy, Don't have the infrastructure book but a fellow UFB member has it and he has been working on sidewalk alternatives for months. Now is his time to shine, I hope.
The ANSI and BMP combo should be here today. This is a brand new offering. Thanks for your input. I plan to use your advice. As for the ASCA arborist, I hope he is objective but I am not optimistic because of what he said, his attitude, and the way he was whispering to the city PW Director and a cohort (the city paid recent passed CA who brought him in).
This whole thing has a bad odor to it. They wanted to yank the tree from the start. First the city rep said the tree was dying (not) and then a CA that just passed the test weeks ago and works for the city came and told the HO the tree was in a decline (not). The tree, again, is dormant and this could possibly be part of the reason for the timing of the project.
This is one of the lower property value parts of town and I think this is also to the HO's disadvantage.
The ANSI and BMP combo should be here today. This is a brand new offering. Thanks for your input. I plan to use your advice. As for the ASCA arborist, I hope he is objective but I am not optimistic because of what he said, his attitude, and the way he was whispering to the city PW Director and a cohort (the city paid recent passed CA who brought him in).
This whole thing has a bad odor to it. They wanted to yank the tree from the start. First the city rep said the tree was dying (not) and then a CA that just passed the test weeks ago and works for the city came and told the HO the tree was in a decline (not). The tree, again, is dormant and this could possibly be part of the reason for the timing of the project.
This is one of the lower property value parts of town and I think this is also to the HO's disadvantage.
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Dave, if the HO is motivated, can he call his town council rep?
tree vitality as you know can be assessed via wound closure, twig extension, bud presence and plumpness, etc.
what's that plant at the baseof the tree? it should come out.
are those 4x4's bordering the lawn? they should come out.
lacking an air tool, excavating can be done with a pick, to locate big roots.
the gutter will be the big root killer--it is not really needed and other road edging near the tree should be used.
"Oaks hate construction of any kind. Cant take it at all."
Umm at best this is an overgeneralization. white oaks tolerate disturbance much better than reds, imo.
tree vitality as you know can be assessed via wound closure, twig extension, bud presence and plumpness, etc.
what's that plant at the baseof the tree? it should come out.
are those 4x4's bordering the lawn? they should come out.
lacking an air tool, excavating can be done with a pick, to locate big roots.
the gutter will be the big root killer--it is not really needed and other road edging near the tree should be used.
"Oaks hate construction of any kind. Cant take it at all."
Umm at best this is an overgeneralization. white oaks tolerate disturbance much better than reds, imo.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
I received a call from HO today and she said that after the general announcement the PW Director made saying they would wait 2 weeks or more to receive the 2 Arb's reports and discuss them and possibly go to council about it for a decision.....the huge digger machine in the picture came by today and tore out a lot of the bank and all the bushes you mentioned Guy (honeysuckle) without any notification. Also tore out a mature lilac bush in optimum health that was OUTSIDE their easement and on HO's property.
HO asked the op why he tore it out and the response was, oops I guess I made a mistake. Sounds like bullying IMO. I had no time today but will go by and check this out tomorrow.
City council, after EAB involvement I have had with them recently, likely will be a city hall advocate in just about any matter.
IMO this plant Quercus palustris, Pin oak is the most sensitive to construction of any oak and in the top tier of trees in this area in general along with such as beech and walnut, etc. I did extensive work in new developments in my early years and do not need to read a book to discover this although it is also in books.
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ok we agree that members of the red oak group do not handle root loss well.
re the lilac and the oak too the HO may be entitled to compensation via an appraisal. isn't ohio a double-value state for appraised trees hurt during trespass, which is also against the law.
HO needed an appraisal report some time ago it seems. Procrastination hurts their case, but they still have rights.
re the lilac and the oak too the HO may be entitled to compensation via an appraisal. isn't ohio a double-value state for appraised trees hurt during trespass, which is also against the law.
HO needed an appraisal report some time ago it seems. Procrastination hurts their case, but they still have rights.
Slvrmple72
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Do everything that you can to save that tree! I wish you the best in your endeavors!-Kevin
treevet
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Ohio is a treble/triple award state I believe. This lady/doctor needs to find a lawyer that will take the case on a percentage I think. Just imagine if a HO was to build a driveway that cut major roots on a city park tree and damaged it irreparably? Imagine the indignance? The repercussions? We are nearing the end of an ordnance in the UFB that is meant just for that scenario.
Question Guy...have you encountered any legal matters involving tree damage with the tree owner versus the city instead of the opposite? If so what was the outcome. Have you been involved? Seems the city would have developed laws to protect themselves in just this kind of matter as it is not an out of the realm of reality situation. Actually seems it would be quite commonplace. Can one law trump another. The city has to protect its rights to its space in the event of this occurrence developing from something that was kosher in the beginning. The tree GROWS into violating a neighbor's space. Trespassing so to speak while hiding (underground).
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
thanks, but it is interesting to see 2 arbs, one a new CA and one an old vet like me and an ASCA who probably see themselves as tree lovers, but when a paycheck is involved.....presto, need more be said. I am making some assumptions here, and have not seen the report, but base what I am saying on conversations on Monday AM.
"Tie a Yellow Ribbon 'Round the Old Oak Tree"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NCZ4l8FCFc
"Tie a Yellow Ribbon 'Round the Old Oak Tree"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_ribbon
With homeoners permission, the Oak Tree needs to stand out to the publics eye a little more.
:monkey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NCZ4l8FCFc
"Tie a Yellow Ribbon 'Round the Old Oak Tree"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_ribbon
With homeoners permission, the Oak Tree needs to stand out to the publics eye a little more.
:monkey:
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
it is in a remote part of town with little travel. the yellow ribbon is a good idea though.
What we have been doing in our Urban Forestry Board is yearly awarding ten "Tree of the Year's". This gets public interest in voting and appreciating these trees (awarded on Arbor Day along with presentation at City Council Meeting) and the town's trees in general. But it also makes it less likely a HO will remove a tree with the permanent plaque and designation of "Tree of the Year" on it if they want to add on or build a garage.
Too bad this one had not got one yet and now is too late.
What we have been doing in our Urban Forestry Board is yearly awarding ten "Tree of the Year's". This gets public interest in voting and appreciating these trees (awarded on Arbor Day along with presentation at City Council Meeting) and the town's trees in general. But it also makes it less likely a HO will remove a tree with the permanent plaque and designation of "Tree of the Year" on it if they want to add on or build a garage.
Too bad this one had not got one yet and now is too late.
BlackenedTimber
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a few things:
The big digger machine is referred to as an "excavator" and it looks like, to me, from looking at the machine from the rear that it is of volvo manufacture (might be wrong...) This will help you when talking to the city and contractors, as they will be more likely to believe you know what your talking about, trees or otherwise, if you are using the correct terminology. not trying to be a snob, trying to help.
also, having worked in all over the country, including ohio, in the energy and utilities industry, there is no way that they utilities on the opposite side of the street will be impinged by the placement of a sidewalk. The underground utilities would have been placed at a minimum of 36 inches below grade for frost protection, but often this is extended to 42 to 48 inches below grade. The placement of the concrete of the sidewalk would be no more than 6 inches thick, unless the town wants to pay for lots of unnecessary concrete. Airport runways are only 14 inches thick, and they handle alot more than foot traffic.
The drains and gutters will be another problem altogether. It looks like, from your pics and description that the drains are to be installed parallel to the road, right next to your prized Oak. depending on the depth of the excavation at that point (my guess is between 1 and 3 feet depending on the lay of the land) you may be able to to convince the city to use the 8 (or 12?) inch duct (pipe) on either side of the CRZ, and then transition to several 2 inch HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne- semi-rigid black plastic ducting) ducts through the CRZ, which using gentle hand excavation, you can identify the major roots in the designated excavation area, and actually splay out and intertwine the 2" ducts THROUGH the roots of your tree, without having to make any cuts to the root system. On the far side of the CRZ, you would bring the 2 inch HDPE ducts back into the 8 (or 12?) inch duct with an adapter (your city PW department should be able to procure the stuff I'm talking about with relative ease) so that the city maintains the required volume of water flow for their drainage system, and your CRZ is relatively uncompromised.
to be clear: use 8 or 12 inch pipe on either side of the tree, using an adapter, transition to several 2" pipes (flexible 2" HDPE or similar) to work the drain system through the roots of the oak, and when passed the CRZ, bring the 2" pipes back into the 8 or 12" pipe on the other side. The city gets their project, and the tree should remain healthy.
I have used this technique, the splaying of small ducts, to move entire duct banks (48 qty 4" ducts) up and over river flumes, drainage, and existing utilities, with as little as 12 inches of cover to the road surface. It will work if you can sell the city on this idea.
You can stay on as a consultant to the project, to either facilitate or monitor the gentle hand excavation and identification of the major roots within the CRZ that stand in the path of the drainage project, to position the ducts through the root structure, and ensure that the backfilling and site remediation in the CRZ is done with the best interest of the Oak.
If the city doesn't warm up to the idea of moving the sidewalk to the other side the street, try and sell them on a wooden, elevated "boardwalk" style sidewalk over the CRZ, as someone had mentioned in an earlier post. If anything, it might bring some quaint charm to an otherwise ignored part of town, as you had mentioned.
I know from working with these people on a daily basis (in places like DC, Boston, New York, Tampa/St. Pete, etc...) that the pencil pushers and shiny white hardhat types can be hell to deal with. Try and be polite and professional, but firm. Try and help them help you. They get their project, and you can help save a tree.
Best of luck and good wishes.
The big digger machine is referred to as an "excavator" and it looks like, to me, from looking at the machine from the rear that it is of volvo manufacture (might be wrong...) This will help you when talking to the city and contractors, as they will be more likely to believe you know what your talking about, trees or otherwise, if you are using the correct terminology. not trying to be a snob, trying to help.
also, having worked in all over the country, including ohio, in the energy and utilities industry, there is no way that they utilities on the opposite side of the street will be impinged by the placement of a sidewalk. The underground utilities would have been placed at a minimum of 36 inches below grade for frost protection, but often this is extended to 42 to 48 inches below grade. The placement of the concrete of the sidewalk would be no more than 6 inches thick, unless the town wants to pay for lots of unnecessary concrete. Airport runways are only 14 inches thick, and they handle alot more than foot traffic.
The drains and gutters will be another problem altogether. It looks like, from your pics and description that the drains are to be installed parallel to the road, right next to your prized Oak. depending on the depth of the excavation at that point (my guess is between 1 and 3 feet depending on the lay of the land) you may be able to to convince the city to use the 8 (or 12?) inch duct (pipe) on either side of the CRZ, and then transition to several 2 inch HDPE (High Density Polyethelyne- semi-rigid black plastic ducting) ducts through the CRZ, which using gentle hand excavation, you can identify the major roots in the designated excavation area, and actually splay out and intertwine the 2" ducts THROUGH the roots of your tree, without having to make any cuts to the root system. On the far side of the CRZ, you would bring the 2 inch HDPE ducts back into the 8 (or 12?) inch duct with an adapter (your city PW department should be able to procure the stuff I'm talking about with relative ease) so that the city maintains the required volume of water flow for their drainage system, and your CRZ is relatively uncompromised.
to be clear: use 8 or 12 inch pipe on either side of the tree, using an adapter, transition to several 2" pipes (flexible 2" HDPE or similar) to work the drain system through the roots of the oak, and when passed the CRZ, bring the 2" pipes back into the 8 or 12" pipe on the other side. The city gets their project, and the tree should remain healthy.
I have used this technique, the splaying of small ducts, to move entire duct banks (48 qty 4" ducts) up and over river flumes, drainage, and existing utilities, with as little as 12 inches of cover to the road surface. It will work if you can sell the city on this idea.
You can stay on as a consultant to the project, to either facilitate or monitor the gentle hand excavation and identification of the major roots within the CRZ that stand in the path of the drainage project, to position the ducts through the root structure, and ensure that the backfilling and site remediation in the CRZ is done with the best interest of the Oak.
If the city doesn't warm up to the idea of moving the sidewalk to the other side the street, try and sell them on a wooden, elevated "boardwalk" style sidewalk over the CRZ, as someone had mentioned in an earlier post. If anything, it might bring some quaint charm to an otherwise ignored part of town, as you had mentioned.
I know from working with these people on a daily basis (in places like DC, Boston, New York, Tampa/St. Pete, etc...) that the pencil pushers and shiny white hardhat types can be hell to deal with. Try and be polite and professional, but firm. Try and help them help you. They get their project, and you can help save a tree.
Best of luck and good wishes.
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Thanks so much for such an elaborate and detailed response. I am not going to be the onsite monitor as I have a business to run and I am doing whatever gets done purely as a donation. I see this tree as one that is of great benefit to the area and the risk level is acceptable to the HO.
The interruption of status quo which has served this specimen quite well over the decades will be the excavation and severing of major buttress roots.
The one other issue at hand here is will this set precedence? This town is know for large mature trees but we have lost many mostly to abiotic issues.
The public cannot act in a way to injure the city's trees (new ordnance just written). On the other hand does the city have the right to damage the public's trees.
If this is the case then there are many more candidates I have seen around town and some already flagged for sidewalk installation it seems. Future trees will be subject to the decision made here on this little street as well.
PS. I have directed the homeowner to this thread to benefit from the discussion.
The interruption of status quo which has served this specimen quite well over the decades will be the excavation and severing of major buttress roots.
The one other issue at hand here is will this set precedence? This town is know for large mature trees but we have lost many mostly to abiotic issues.
The public cannot act in a way to injure the city's trees (new ordnance just written). On the other hand does the city have the right to damage the public's trees.
If this is the case then there are many more candidates I have seen around town and some already flagged for sidewalk installation it seems. Future trees will be subject to the decision made here on this little street as well.
PS. I have directed the homeowner to this thread to benefit from the discussion.
BlackenedTimber
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Thank you for the kind response.
It really sucks that city doesn't care about the tree and will proceed without consideration.
It sounds like this is going to be a losing battle for the Home Owner, and that disheartens me.
Keep us abreast of any progress in the situation.
T
It really sucks that city doesn't care about the tree and will proceed without consideration.
It sounds like this is going to be a losing battle for the Home Owner, and that disheartens me.
Keep us abreast of any progress in the situation.
T
treevet
Addicted to ArboristSite
Will do and thanks again. Your response is there for consideration by the home owner and any of her agents. Or theirs for that matter.
pinoakHO
New Member
Threats to my Pin Oak
It is my tree that "Treevet" is referring to. I joined the site so I could respond.
In spite of the fact that the Director of Public Works for the city involved, and the supervisor of the construction crew, agreed on the 13th that there would be no impact on or invasion of the roots of the tree, on the
16th they had a track-excavator operator go in and start digging into the tree roots to remove a honeysuckle. We were supposed to have a three week window in order to get some plans made on how to save the tree, not 3 days.
As a homeowner (and a taxpayer) I don't know how I protect myself from this kind of behavior. The city claims I don't have to be consulted, and I have no rights in the matter, because the new curb and new sidewalk are going in the right-of-way belonging to the city. I have written to the Forestry Board for the city, but have heard that the city has found a way of side-stepping the board.
If anyone has some suggestions about how to deal with this situation, the time is now, before that track-excavator comes back next week and does more damage. Treevet and I, pinoakHO would love to hear from you.
It is my tree that "Treevet" is referring to. I joined the site so I could respond.
In spite of the fact that the Director of Public Works for the city involved, and the supervisor of the construction crew, agreed on the 13th that there would be no impact on or invasion of the roots of the tree, on the
16th they had a track-excavator operator go in and start digging into the tree roots to remove a honeysuckle. We were supposed to have a three week window in order to get some plans made on how to save the tree, not 3 days.
As a homeowner (and a taxpayer) I don't know how I protect myself from this kind of behavior. The city claims I don't have to be consulted, and I have no rights in the matter, because the new curb and new sidewalk are going in the right-of-way belonging to the city. I have written to the Forestry Board for the city, but have heard that the city has found a way of side-stepping the board.
If anyone has some suggestions about how to deal with this situation, the time is now, before that track-excavator comes back next week and does more damage. Treevet and I, pinoakHO would love to hear from you.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
The tree is 51" DBH, according to Construction Damage Assessments: Trees and Sites by Dr. Kim D. Coder, University of Georgia October 1996, that means it has a Structural Root Zone (SRZ) of 12' and that's measured from the centre of the trunk not the edge of the tree. Whilst the tree may have a 63' entire root protection zone the structural root zone is closer in.
There's two root zones, terminology varies but basically it goes like this.
TPZ (Tree Protection Zone), CRZ (Critical Root Zone), RPZ (Root Protection Zone) all mean the same thing. It's the area further out where the finer feeder and hairy root system is. It's those smaller finer roots that gather the resources for tree survival, they usually dominate the top 30cm of soil and travel far further than the drip line of the tree. Adequate area has to be provided and cared for ... for those roots to sustain the tree. According to Dr K Coder 1996 the distance of this is 63' however the existing road and house would have had quite a serious impact upon the oaks root system in those directions.
The other root zone is called SRZ (Structural Root Zone), SCRD (Structural Critical Rooting Distance) which is closer in. The SRZ is closer to the trunk, this is where the larger sized structural support roots are. Encroaching into the SRZ puts the tree at risk of catastrophic failure. In most tree upheavals regardless of the size of the tree the soil ball (root plate) that goes over with the tree is generally within 2.5m of the outside of the trunk.
More information with diagrams here and laymans language here.
Tree Protection Zones - TPZ - On Development Sites
The root zone on the road side of the tree is already restricted and their works are inside of the SRZ of tree... but I'm not sure where the 8' measurement came from, the edge of the tree or centre of the trunk, either way I suppose there's encroachment and an elevated risk of catastrophic failure in the future. The remaining roots are also somewhat restricted with a house, so it's reasonably fair to say that currently the tree is not receiving optimal entitlement, therefore any further reduction to root zones will only assist decline. Compensatory efforts to replace lost root area takes time and space, years in fact. Even if you did all you could straight away the loss for this sized tree in that location would be tremendous, and the failure risk would go through the roof.
If they did away with the footpath, substituted paving or permeable rubber sidewalks then there'd be a chance with just the road gutter 12' away.
This is a lesson to be learned for all, and I have beat this drum for years. Whenever you plant a tree consider it's size and root area, in effect that tree is commandeering the lawful landowners rights of use (city) ... likewise when a large city tree or even your neighbours tree restricts your plans of what you can do on your land. Try this with any other building and it wouldn't be permitted but planting of trees is unregulated.
Would the city have the right to make the tree owner pay for costs of alternate construction to save the tree? Possibly.
There's two root zones, terminology varies but basically it goes like this.
TPZ (Tree Protection Zone), CRZ (Critical Root Zone), RPZ (Root Protection Zone) all mean the same thing. It's the area further out where the finer feeder and hairy root system is. It's those smaller finer roots that gather the resources for tree survival, they usually dominate the top 30cm of soil and travel far further than the drip line of the tree. Adequate area has to be provided and cared for ... for those roots to sustain the tree. According to Dr K Coder 1996 the distance of this is 63' however the existing road and house would have had quite a serious impact upon the oaks root system in those directions.
The other root zone is called SRZ (Structural Root Zone), SCRD (Structural Critical Rooting Distance) which is closer in. The SRZ is closer to the trunk, this is where the larger sized structural support roots are. Encroaching into the SRZ puts the tree at risk of catastrophic failure. In most tree upheavals regardless of the size of the tree the soil ball (root plate) that goes over with the tree is generally within 2.5m of the outside of the trunk.
More information with diagrams here and laymans language here.
Tree Protection Zones - TPZ - On Development Sites
The root zone on the road side of the tree is already restricted and their works are inside of the SRZ of tree... but I'm not sure where the 8' measurement came from, the edge of the tree or centre of the trunk, either way I suppose there's encroachment and an elevated risk of catastrophic failure in the future. The remaining roots are also somewhat restricted with a house, so it's reasonably fair to say that currently the tree is not receiving optimal entitlement, therefore any further reduction to root zones will only assist decline. Compensatory efforts to replace lost root area takes time and space, years in fact. Even if you did all you could straight away the loss for this sized tree in that location would be tremendous, and the failure risk would go through the roof.
If they did away with the footpath, substituted paving or permeable rubber sidewalks then there'd be a chance with just the road gutter 12' away.
This is a lesson to be learned for all, and I have beat this drum for years. Whenever you plant a tree consider it's size and root area, in effect that tree is commandeering the lawful landowners rights of use (city) ... likewise when a large city tree or even your neighbours tree restricts your plans of what you can do on your land. Try this with any other building and it wouldn't be permitted but planting of trees is unregulated.
Would the city have the right to make the tree owner pay for costs of alternate construction to save the tree? Possibly.
