What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate

[sunfish]

Jotul stopped making Cat stoves about 20 years ago.

That long ago?

 

[Locust Cutter]

Bryan, that is the craziest thing I think I've ever read! Wow!

I guess I should clarify, the siding was attached to the stringers, which were then screwed to the studs with only air between them and the sheet rock, but it's all relative.

I did speak with my local Jotul dealer today. They want $1900 for the Black Bear. Now that I've got Mike's saw on the way have both German and Swedish engineering covered, I think it may be time to pick up some Norwegian ingenuity, (and a larger checking acct...).

 

[Locust Cutter]

3 hr burn time. ? Dang no wonder your looking at other options . I could toss some logs and cardboard boxes in my firepit in the backyard and get that . Concerning the heat swings : this is why when its mild you learn to use wood to your advantage . I like to use hemlock slabs ( we have slot of Amish sawmills around here ) so I don't get the house overheated . They take the chill off but don't build up a coal bed . Operator error can usually account for too heavy a coal bed . Its avoidable ..They usually come by reloading to frequently then guys don't realize how to burn them off . You just rake them all toward the very front of the stove and toss a small thin slab on top then open your air intake to wide open and leave it for next few hours and enjoy the heat from those coals.proper technique on running these new stoves it goes a long way and avoids the concerns you have

I should clarify, I don't expect 72 degrees +/- 3, but a bit more even or consistent heat cycle than every 1-2 hours with a large arc throughout the cycle. A more gradual arc, no removal of live coals and bit and another hour or two and I'd be happy as a pig in slop.

 

[sunfish]

I bought a Jotul F3CB in 1994 and they had made the switch to high tech secondary combustion at that time. I heard the high temps in the cats had caused some warping problems.

Good to know, thanks.

I almost bought a F3CB, but got the larger F118CB instead. I think the 3 would be a better fit for our house. Or maybe the F400?

 

[Eric Modell]

I bought a Jotul F3CB in 1994 and they had made the switch to high tech secondary combustion at that time. I heard the high temps in the cats had caused some warping problems.

I have been afraid of cast Iron stoves for warping problems. I Guess you have to be careful not to over fire them, but the Jotuls must be one of the better stoves on the market.

 

[Locust Cutter]

That was part of the reason I went with the P.E. was the fact that it was a steel firebox, (which heats a bit faster) wrapped in an old-fashioned cast-iron liner. I have noticed that outside temp seems to affect the coaling. The warmer it is, the less it coals, which to me is counter-intuitive as cooler air is more dense and better for combustion than warmer air, all else being equal. as long as it's above 20F I don't have near the coaling problem. It's only during snaps like this, that it really bites. I think the cast iron stove do a bit better with the temp swings than the steel stoves do, as they heat and cool faster than cast.

 

[Locust Cutter]

It is nice when I can charge to do a tree removal and then either burn that wood, or sell it, depending on the species and quality... I like making money twice, legally for essentially the same job.

 

[Eric Modell]

OK is spider and me the only ones with stove grates? My new to me old Riteway furnace has grates, but make more coals then any other stove I have ever burned. One would think that the air coming up through the gates would not create the coals. The coals are not a problem because the ash door can be opened and they produce crazy high temperatures. The fire box is huge so there is no way the coal build up impedes the addition of a fresh load. I certainly can not say this stove is efficient, but it will put out the BTUS.

 

[Locust Cutter]

Some are designed with grates in mind and others aren't. I'm sure some knows the scientific reasoning behind this, but I don't and won't try to bs you.

 

[Whitespider]

Lots of stoves have grates... not all stoves feed the combustion air under that grate.
Sometimes the grate is there only to facilitate the use of an ash drawer.
If the air isn't feed under the grate it isn't part of the "combustion system"... it's just part of the "ash removal" system.

In the case of my DAKA furnace... any and all air coming into the firebox is fed under the grate.
The box I had before the Spectrum was the same way... under the grate.
Dads old cast stove... under the grate.
When I use to build barrel stoves I would use a fireplace rack for a grate and place the combustion air intake lower than the rack (that's the purpose of a fireplace rack... to get air under the fire so it burns better/hotter/cleaner).

But, when you add a glass door and secondary burn... well... you're screwed‼
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[Whitespider]

The grate is there for more than ash removal.

No it ain't... if you get some combustion benefit from it that's a plus... but that ain't the design intent.
But believe whatever you choose.
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[Locust Cutter]

I will say that if the ash pan opening is covered up too much, or the drawer is full, it substantially hampers the burn, both temp and efficiency-wise. The door doesn't leak per-sea, but there is enough gap around the edges to allow a bit of airflow past them. I have to keep it dug out, or it coals up much worse. My other option as opposed to hauling the coals out once there isn't an active, visible-flame fire is to open the ash door a bit and burn the coals down that way, but I'm sure that goes against manf's recommendations.

 

[Steve NW WI]

Now, Del, you know Spidey was on Jotul's design team, otherwise he wouldn't go around making BLANKET STATEMENTS like that. He HAS to have firsthand knowledge.

 

[Eric Modell]

Both my Jotuls have grates and ash pans.
I've got a Riteway Model 37 with wood and coal grates sitting in the shop.

What Riteway do you have?

I have the little one in the old dairy barn, It is burnt out. We used it or years with a internal hot water tank. The new to us is the larger larger model, the only number I can see is B6. The new one must have 7 or 8 cu ft fire box,

 

[sunfish]

I like to go big on free standing wood stove suggestions. For one, they take longer, larger wood. Second, you can let the house get cooler while you are gone and when you get home fire up that big stove and let 'er rip! I'm into super seasoning wood and always have been. Two years or longer and even large pieces light up and burn well. We've been burning nothing but pine this year in our F600cb and the splits are 23inches X about six inches, seasoned two years. All of our firewood is from trees I charge people to remove in out tree business.

I agree with everything except "go big". 1200 sq feet of well insulated house here. No way in hell I could run a F600CB!

 

[sunfish]

Well I didn't mean that big!



.

If our house were larger, I'd not even consider replacing the 118CB. Fantastic stove!
I think a Jotul F400CB is the next one. The 118CB I have now will work real nice in the shop.

 

[Whitespider]

I can see a difference… Even though air in not fed from under the grate the grate still affects combustion. ... The grate is there for more than ash removal. … main air enters the firebox right near grate level, it looks like some of the heavy cool input air drops through the grate and comes up under the burning logs.

Now, Del, you know Spidey was on Jotul's design team, otherwise he wouldn't go around making BLANKET STATEMENTS like that. He HAS to have firsthand knowledge.

OK… I wasn't on the design team, and I retract the “BLANKET STATEMENT”.
But let’s take a couple minutes to analyze what Del_ is saying.

No doubt some air gets under the fire during the flame stage… not just because it’s heavier/cooler, also because the fire creates a draft. Really though, air under the grate ain’t needed during the flame stage… there’s plenty of air gaps at the ends and between the logs. It’s been my experience that air fed under the grate is needed (or beneficial) during the coaling stage. So what happens when the fire collapses into coals and covers the grate?? No matter how hard I think about it I can’t see air being pulled down through a bed of coals without some sort of mechanical aid… it goes against everything I know about physics. So now we have to ask the question (or at least I do)… why would someone design a grate system to allow air under the fire when it ain’t really needed, and not allow air under when most needed (or at least significantly reduce it)?? Well… to me… the obvious answer is because the design intent was not to feed air under the fire. Let’s call it the Whitespider Grate Theory and see if we can find any evidence to support it.

My … furnace has grates, but make more coals then any other stove I have ever burned. …not a problem because the ash door can be opened and they produce crazy high temperatures.

My other option as opposed to hauling the coals out once there isn't an active, visible-flame fire is to open the ash door a bit and burn the coals down that way…

So even though there is a grate (without air fed under it), the box builds too many coals…
Opening the ash door feeds air under the grate, burns the coals at a higher rate, and produces “crazy high temperatures”… which falls right in line with the Whitespider Grate Theory.

Well… theory ain’t fact… and a couple quotes don’t make it fact either… but… I can tell you this…

When I open the feed door on my furnace with a bed of coals on the grate I have to close the air intake gate or my eyebrows will disappear in a flash, closing that gate significantly reduces heat near instantly (even with the door wide open and dumping massive amounts of air into the box). Adding wood to the firebox on a relatively clean grate makes zero difference if the intake gate is open or closed, as long as the feed door is open… which is exactly how the (no grate) Spectrum worked. I don’t do it that way, but my wife sometimes likes to sit and watch until the fire gets too hot to leave the door open any longer (yeah, she’s a firebug).
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[Whitespider]

No doubt Jotul has no idea this is happening and just got lucky.

Yup... no doubt.
And I'm also bettin' they don't get near as lucky when the stove is used north of the Mason-Dixon... but that's just a bet.
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[Whitespider]

Now that there was just flat mean‼
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[unclemoustache]

Well, 6 pages of great info and lots of discussion, but I'm not sure the question has been answered. Spidey keeps talking about conditions and proper usage, while others talk about technology.
For those of us who don't know as much about either, we don't really know what to think, and some of us with fewer brain cells prefer to leave the discussion to the engineers and simply want to know what watch to buy - not the different methods of watch design and construction.

I've been following this thread closely since I have the same question so I'll repeat the OP:

In a large drafty house with little insulation (quit moaning about the importance of insulation! That's beyond my means for now and in the forseeable future), what stove type would be recommended for a guy who doesn't always have perfectly seasoned wood? What features should we look for and/or avoid? Cat? Secondary Burn? Large fire box? Glass door? Grate? Top loader? Cast iron? Steel? Soapstone? etc??