What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate

[Steve NW WI]

Speak for yourself, Spidey. Cutting wood makes me thirstier. I'm good-n-ready for a cold one or 12 after a day of cutting wood. Tastes better in front of a fire, too. Indoors or out, depending on season.

 

[Chris-PA]

Forgot to put that savings in terms Spidey will understand. That 4 cords a year, $1200, is the equivalent of 65 cases of Bud a year, more if you buy it on sale.

Wait - you mean if I use an EPA stove and cut less wood I have to drink Bud? Man, those EPA guys really are cruel!

- but real beer please!

 

[oldspark]

I've never advocated that... ever‼
Read my post at the top of this page... I clearly spell-it-out.

I get ya now , your PM explained it well, just a newbie here and still learning the ropes.

 

[oldspark]

I have nothing against the EPA stoves as long as you know what you are getting and understand what they are and what they aint.
Different parts of the country can have a lot to do with it also (warmer vs cold)

 

[naturelover]

I'll tell ya, the Englander 30 cranks out the heat, way more than my old 520 ever thought about, even on a load of coal.

Part of that is that it is a bigger firebox, but still, I can be on the secondaries and have stovetop temps cruising at 700* for at least a few hours on not so good wood.

It'll really shine when I get some good dry oak on there.

And there's the rub. DRY wood. Why most people return the stoves complaining they ain't throwing out any heat, because their "fuel" is substandard, not the stove.


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[Cerran]

the dirty little secret about EPA stoves is this- they tout 30% less wood consumption than a conventional old stove. the only way to get that, is with 30% less primary DRAFT. so basically they are smoldering the fire down lower and attempting to burn that smoke to clean up emissions, while recovering BTU's from the smoke, to get the stove to put out a comparable BTU rating to an old conventional stove that's wide open using more draft. one thing about old stoves, they may have ate a lot of wood, but they also put out a lot of HEAT. I'm skeptical about how well these new stoves heat a home, with equal firebox size to an old stove. Because if they use 30% less wood, there's only one way to do that, and that's with 30% less draft.

That is completely untrue and incorrect. A properly designed two-stage combustion stove is able to capture more of the heat and put it into the room in a more efficient manner. It has very little to do with the amount of draft assuming that there is enough draft to properly operate the stove. You seem to equate draft with the amount of air the stove is using and this simply isn't true.

It has a lot to do with the flue temperatures and how the combustion takes place. A staged combustion system (Primary, secondary) that is properly designed will put out the same heat but with far fewer emissions in part because of the lower velocities through multiple stages of combustion but also because of the longer contact of heat transfer surfaces and lower overall flue temperatures.

Newer stoves require 30% less wood because they are putting less unburnt hydrocarbons out of the stove pipe and are generally running lower flue temperatures. Obviously this won't be the case 100% of the time but under most instances it will be.

 

[oldspark]

Newer stoves require 30% less wood because they are putting less unburnt hydrocarbons out of the stove pipe and are generally running lower flue temperatures. Obviously this won't be the case 100% of the time but under most instances it will be

I know you stated generally lower flue temps but I have seen quite a few people report higher flue temps, mine are through the roof compared to the old stove, I only have 18 feet of chimney but it seems to be more then the Summits wants.
Not sure about the 30% less wood either, its a smaller stove and its straining its milk to keep up so eats a lot of wood, I might be putting the heat up the stack though. Damper is in the plan now.

 

[flotek]

[quote="naturelover, post: 4648582, member: ]

And there's the rub. DRY wood. Why most people return the stoves complaining they ain't throwing out any heat, because their "fuel" is substandard, not the stove.


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Exactly !

 

[Whitespider]

...I have seen quite a few people report higher flue temps, mine are through the roof compared to the old stove...

Yeah... my flue pipe ran noticeably higher with the EPA box also. In fact, I ran the blower using a snap switch mounted on a bracket about 4 inches away from the pipe... and there was plenty of heat to engage it. I don't use a thermometer so I don't know the exact number; but I can hold my hand damn close the the pipe on the current DAKA smoke dragon (within and inch or two), I often needed to turn my face away from the pipe on the EPA box. On the previous smoke dragon (before the EPA box) I could actually lay my hand on the pipe above the flue damper. When I tried using the flue damper with the EPA box the shaft got so hot it sagged and the spring lost all tension. That's a lot of heat exiting the flue... a lot‼
*

 

[Cerran]

I know you stated generally lower flue temps but I have seen quite a few people report higher flue temps, mine are through the roof compared to the old stove, I only have 18 feet of chimney but it seems to be more then the Summits wants.
Not sure about the 30% less wood either, its a smaller stove and its straining its milk to keep up so eats a lot of wood, I might be putting the heat up the stack though. Damper is in the plan now.

It all depends on the setup but from my experience when you move from a non-EPA to a Re-burn or Catalytic stove of similar sized firebox, generally speaking both flue temperatures and emissions (particularly visible emissions) are lower.

If you undersize the stove and run it very hard, you're going to get elevated flue temperatures because of the high velocities and low residence time in the primary/secondary combustion zones.

 

[Whitespider]

Oh crap... I can't believe I missed a golden opportunity....

You are going to have to speak up son, so I can hear you above the roaring fire in my Jotul Firelight 600CB.

LMFAO‼
That's a "roaring" fire?? Heck man, that's barely above a medium smolder‼
I carry a cigar lighter that puts out more "fire" than that‼
LMFAO‼

 

[flotek]

Yeah... my flue pipe ran noticeably higher with the EPA box also. In fact, I ran the blower using a snap switch mounted on a bracket about 4 inches away from the pipe... and there was plenty of heat to engage it. I don't use a thermometer so I don't know the exact number; but I can hold my hand damn close the the pipe on the current DAKA smoke dragon (within and inch or two), I often needed to turn my face away from the pipe on the EPA box. On the previous smoke dragon (before the EPA box) I could actually lay my hand on the pipe above the flue damper. When I tried using the flue damper with the EPA box the shaft got so hot it sagged and the spring lost all tension. That's a lot of heat exiting the flue... a lot‼
*

Sounds like perhaps you had too much draft on the EPA unit if it was going that hot or maybe air was coming in from some source like a leaky gasket or something . Maybe just maybe your assumptions on the one EPA unit you are basing your experiences on was running improperly and not what most users experience On there's

 

[oldspark]

If you undersize the stove and run it very hard, you're going to get elevated flue temperatures because of the high velocities and low residence time in the primary/secondary combustion zones

They are high all the time, small fire big fire any type a fire you can put in the stove, like I said I need to try a damper with the new chimney.

 

[naturelover]

Depending on the chimney setup, it could be drawing too much air through the stove.

Some people have had to close off some of the unregulated intake air, for instance, placing magnets over some of the air intake holes. Most of these were developed for a 15' or so chimney, if you got a 30' chimney drawing like a freight train, it could be running hotter.

My 17' flue runs cooler with the 30 than with the 520, so much so that I doubt it would even flip the switch on my miracle heat reclaimer, if it were installed.


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[Chris-PA]

They are high all the time, small fire big fire any type a fire you can put in the stove, like I said I need to try a damper with the new chimney.

We're probably back to the old issue of primary and secondary draft control. With my US Stoves Magnolia the single draft control limits both, but with my small Hampton H200 it only limits primary. I would have a hard time keeping control of my Magnolia if it did not limit secondary air too, due to the strong draft of that flue. As it is I can just about put it out no matter how hard it is going.

The smaller H200 is on a shorter flue and has never been a problem.

 

[Cerran]

Oh crap... I can't believe I missed a golden opportunity....



LMFAO‼
That's a "roaring" fire?? Heck man, that's barely above a medium smolder‼
I carry a cigar lighter that puts out more "fire" than that‼
LMFAO‼

Look at the wood inside the stove, it's in the mid to late stages of coaling and most of the volatiles have been driven off. Based on the picture I would say the stove is on the backside of the heat output curve for the loading cycle.

 

[Whitespider]

Sounds like perhaps you had too much draft... maybe... a leaky gasket or something. Maybe... running improperly...

Blaa, blaa, blaa, blaa, blaa, blaa... blaa...
We've been through all that to the point of puking all over the floor. I tried everything suggested... and a couple dozen more.
Why is it so hard for some of y'all to just believe that the modern, high-efficiency units are not always the best choice for all applications and situations‼ Why is it so hard for some of y'all to just believe that the modern, high-efficiency units are not necessarily the best thing since sliced bread for everybody's needs‼

Cerran,
I was bein' a smart-azz man, it was nothing more than a friendly dig.
*

 

[VINIFIREWOOD]

Any of you guys have experience with or seen one of these?


Don't remember where I ran across this on the net a couple years ago. Couldn't seem to find any info on them then other than made in Canada.

 

[Whitespider]

Barrel stove on steroids... I understand they really kick out some serious heat.

 

[oldspark]

Wood fires are beautiful and seeing the stage of the fire is a tremendous aid in running a wood stove efficiently and almost effortlessly.

Yes wood fires are beeeuuuutiful but a stove top thermo and a stack thermo will tell you what you need to know plus my old stove was a lot less finicky then the new one.