What is the best style stove, EPA, CAT, down drafter, one with a grate

[Oxford]

Just out of curiosity, would your stovace be installed in the selfsame building about which you wrote the words below?

So anyway, I'll move it out in the shop (which is really and old, drafty, two-stall, detached garage). I've had a couple of barrel stoves in there (nothing now) and the chimney is sort'a a cobble-job... uninsulated pipe running out a window and 10-foot up the back wall. Draft has always been a problem at cold start-up, and not overly great when running... maybe this EPA stove will like that better. Don't worry, if it don't run right I won't be blaming the stove; I know I have "poor" draft in there and nothing has run all that great... but maybe, just maybe, if these stoves really are design to run on the lowest possible draft conditions (as that article says) it might just love my shop with its short, cold chimney.
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Must be a different building, since I know you'd never try to get out from under any of your Pronouncements from On High.

 

[Whitespider]

Just out of curiosity, would your stovace be installed in the selfsame building...

Yup... same building.
Ran a new double wall pipe straight up off the stove and through the roof... 16 foot total, 3 foot above the peak, not a single elbow in it, even put one of those fancy rain caps on it.
Ain't no stove draft problem now... sucks all the smoke out without so much as a wisp in the building... even on cold start-up and the stove door open.
Sealed up the gaps around the doors, caulked the windows, even hung heavy quilts on the north side... ain't no drafty building now, cigarette smoke floats straight up.
Damn stove fills up with coals and quits heating, faster than it did in the house.... don't make one bit difference where I set the draft, still fills with coals and quits heating.
Seemed to work OK(?) in October when it was 40's and 50's out... but after that not so much.
I got so frustrated over New Years that I put my sheet metal back on, attached a blower to the sheet metal, and ripped the fire brick back out... at least now I can extract a little heat from the coal bed (just like in the house).
I'll have a barrel stove back in there next fall... I'm all done... even when it's 30° and sunny outside the best I can do is 50°, maybe 55° in the shop before I need to start shoveling out live coals (and it's a small two-stall garage).
Plannin' on cuttin' that stove up and using the steel to build the barrel stove stand, door, baffle, and whatnot... flat friggin' done with it.
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[NSMaple1]

What make/model of stove is that anyway?

 

[Whitespider]

Pacific Energy Spectrum

 

[flotek]

Not trying to fan the flames butOut of curiosity what is this modification you refer to ? You did what with a blower and sheet metal. ?this wason a newer pacific epa stove ?

 

[Whitespider]

flotek,
My brother's father-in-law gave me the stove... I forget exactly, but I'm sure it was something less than 10 years old.
And it's damn good thing I didn't pay good money for it or I'd be spending most of my time in Banned Camp for sure... can you imagine how vocal I'd be??

When I originally installed the box in my house I wanted to use it as a furnace, rather than a stand-alone stove. I'd built furnaces from stove fireboxes before (that's what the previous was, used it for 15 years that way) and figured it would be a slam dunk. I removed all the fancy porcelain coated sheet metal from the stove and replaced them with an air jacket, with blower, and piped it into the ducting. It didn't work As soon as the fire collapsed into a bed of coals it blew cold air, and adding more wood just increased the size of the coal bed. The thing just wouldn't make heat for more than a couple hours... and the coals would never burn down. I was shoveling bucket loads of un-burned coals out and dumping them, and ended up using more firewood last winter than I ever had. We went 'round 'n' 'round on this site about what was wrong, who was wrong, etc. Everythnig you can imagine was blamed, and I tried dozens of different things (many were sure it was my chimney set-up). So far I hadn't made any changes to the firebox proper... but in the end I took out the fire brick (from the sides) so they wouldn't insulated the heat from the firebox walls, and therefore the air jacket. That helped a little, not much, and I fought that thing all last year. It was chilly in my house more than it was warm... and I was continuously screwin' around with it trying to keep it heating.

Now fast-forward to this fall. I un-did all my mods, put the thing back to the way it came off the sales floor. Installed it in my shop per the manual, proper chimney, all that. It won't heat during cold weather, it just makes deep beds of non-heating coals... and the shop (garage) ain't big. So over New Years I went back to what was working best in the house (and that ain't great)... reinstalled the air jacket and blower, removed the fire brick. At least I can get a little heat from the coal bed that way. It is flat the worst, most ridiculous, wood burning appliance I've ever had... I've heated with barrel stoves that gave more heat and used less wood. Maybe all the glass door, secondary burn, air coming in over the top stoves aren't that way... but I'll never know, 'cause I'll never have another.

Then I read in these threads about raking coals to the front (or wherever), placing splits just so, adjusting the draft control several times over a burn cycle, burning coals down, and lord knows what else...
And I think to myself... you have to be friggin' kiddin' me...
I don't give a crap how clean and efficient they (supposedly) burn... that flat blows‼ I've never, ever had to do that crap... occasionally adjust the flue damper slightly for weather conditions, but that's it‼ And with the unit I'm using now I don't even have to do that... I just open the door, toss the wood in however it lands, and slam the door. Heck, if it uses a bit more wood so-be-it... it's friggin' worth it‼ Makin' firewood is enough work, burnin' it should be the easy part

Anyway... there's your answer.
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[Oxford]

Not to be disagreeable, but I don't recall you ever actually doing the one thing that was nearly universally recommended: installing a barometric damper to ensure correct stack draft at the stove. Something about them costing eighty dollars, and then I believe a member here offered to hook you up for much less than that and rather than put your money where your mouth is and risk being shown up, you refused his offer. In fact, I don't believe you ever even measured stack draft, in spite of the fact that you yourself stipulated that the chimney in your house had a strong enough draft even with no fire to suck a piece of paper from the basement out the stack. You don't know what your draft is in the shop, and all your bellowin' and bloviatin' and obfuscatin' and denyin' you said things that you said doesn't change that one simple and critically important fact.

In fact, I don't recall you ever making any attempt to install the stove properly according to the manufacturer's instructions- or to know anything about the stove at all other than what you thought it should do- prior to heavily modifying and installing it. The stove may or may not be perfect, but it's hard for me to believe that how you installed and ran it is even in the same ballpark that the installation specifications called out. Even now, I would be willing to make a large wager that your draft isn't even close to correct, and it appears that the manufacturer made it pretty plain that draft was critical.

As I believe I said at the time, you keep saying you know it's not the stove, and then you blame the stove. You got the stove as a gift from someone who had used it successfully in their own home and who likely thought they were giving you a good thing. When you say that stove doesn't work, it seems to me that you're saying that they were lying about it working, and that's weak. That one stove didn't work in your hacked-up application when operated by someone who has apparently never said to himself "Wait a second, maybe I don't know what I'm doing here" and any conclusion, positive or negative, based on that experimental result would be very suspect in my world.

 

[naturelover]

Is that only a 2 cu ft firebox?

That seems to be asking a lot of that size stove to heat your drafty house, or that drafty garage.

You would have been much better served with at least a 3 cu ft box.

I've got the two stall, detached, drafty, windowed garage with 12' ceilings, and it takes brute force to heat it from a dead cold. The 30 does it, but I don't think a 2 cu ft box would have ever heated it.


Sent from my iPhone 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Cerran]

flotek,
My brother's father-in-law gave me the stove... I forget exactly, but I'm sure it was something less than 10 years old.
And it's damn good thing I didn't pay good money for it or I'd be spending most of my time in Banned Camp for sure... can you imagine how vocal I'd be??

When I originally installed the box in my house I wanted to use it as a furnace, rather than a stand-alone stove. I'd built furnaces from stove fireboxes before (that's what the previous was, used it for 15 years that way) and figured it would be a slam dunk. I removed all the fancy porcelain coated sheet metal from the stove and replaced them with an air jacket, with blower, and piped it into the ducting. It didn't work As soon as the fire collapsed into a bed of coals it blew cold air, and adding more wood just increased the size of the coal bed. The thing just wouldn't make heat for more than a couple hours... and the coals would never burn down. I was shoveling bucket loads of un-burned coals out and dumping them, and ended up using more firewood last winter than I ever had. We went 'round 'n' 'round on this site about what was wrong, who was wrong, etc. Everythnig you can imagine was blamed, and I tried dozens of different things (many were sure it was my chimney set-up). So far I hadn't made any changes to the firebox proper... but in the end I took out the fire brick (from the sides) so they wouldn't insulated the heat from the firebox walls, and therefore the air jacket. That helped a little, not much, and I fought that thing all last year. It was chilly in my house more than it was warm... and I was continuously screwin' around with it trying to keep it heating.

Now fast-forward to this fall. I un-did all my mods, put the thing back to the way it came off the sales floor. Installed it in my shop per the manual, proper chimney, all that. It won't heat during cold weather, it just makes deep beds of non-heating coals... and the shop (garage) ain't big. So over New Years I went back to what was working best in the house (and that ain't great)... reinstalled the air jacket and blower, removed the fire brick. At least I can get a little heat from the coal bed that way. It is flat the worst, most ridiculous, wood burning appliance I've ever had... I've heated with barrel stoves that gave more heat and used less wood. Maybe all the glass door, secondary burn, air coming in over the top stoves aren't that way... but I'll never know, 'cause I'll never have another.

Then I read in these threads about raking coals to the front (or wherever), placing splits just so, adjusting the draft control several times over a burn cycle, burning coals down, and lord knows what else...
And I think to myself... you have to be friggin' kiddin' me...
I don't give a crap how clean and efficient they (supposedly) burn... that flat blows‼ I've never, ever had to do that crap... occasionally adjust the flue damper slightly for weather conditions, but that's it‼ And with the unit I'm using now I don't even have to do that... I just open the door, toss the wood in however it lands, and slam the door. Heck, if it uses a bit more wood so-be-it... it's friggin' worth it‼ Makin' firewood is enough work, burnin' it should be the easy part

Anyway... there's your answer.
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How do you load the stove? Front to back or sideways?

What kind of wood are you using?

It sounds to me like something isn't set up right or something is plugged.

FYI complaining about having to spend another 2 minutes properly prepping a stove for a load cycle doesn't make much sense.

 

[Whitespider]

BU!!$H!T Oxford, total friggin bu!!$h!t ‼
This is what the manual says about the chimney and draft... and there ain't draft specification, so there ain't nothin' to measure‼
It states nothing about a draft specification, or damper of any sort

Chimney and Connector
Connect to a listed chimney or a chimney suitable for use
with solid fuel that is lined and in good condition and
meets local building codes. The chimney flue size should
be the same as the stove outlet for optimal performance.
Reducing or increasing the flue size may adversely affect
stove performance. Chimney flue exit is to be 3 feet (1 m.)
above roof and two feet (0.6 m.) above highest projection
within 10 feet (3 m.). The installation must meet all local
codes. Do not connect this unit to a chimney flue serving
another appliance. Minimum system height is 15 feet (4.6
m.) (measured from base of appliance).

Proper Draft
1. Draft is the force which moves air from the appliance
up through the chimney. The amount of draft in your
chimney depends on the length of the chimney, local
geography, nearby obstructions and other factors.
2. Too much draft may cause excessive temperatures
in the appliance. An uncontrollable burn or a glowing
red stove part or chimney indicates excessive draft.
3. Inadequate draft may cause backpuffing into the room
and plugging of the chimney. Smoke leaking into the
room through appliance and chimney connector joints
indicates inadequate draft.

I installed it (in the shop) exactly as the manual states‼
And I'm having none of the issues described in the draft section...

• Excessive Temperatures - Well that certainly ain't happening.
• Uncontrollable Burn - No problem there, I can close the draft down to where the secondary combustion will nearly shut down (and so does the heat).
• Glowing Red Stove Part or Chimney - Not a friggin' chance.
• Backpuffing - Nope.
• Smoke Leaking Into the Room - Nope.

naturelover,
Yeah, bigger may be more better... but my previous box wasn't any bigger... a little deeper, narrower and the same height.
But the problem ain't getting enough heat, it makes a ton of heat when the secondary is active... for an hour or maybe two.
The problem is no friggin' heat when the secondary shuts down... I mean near friggin' none‼ (Except what little exits the glass door as radiation.) And it won't burn the friggin' coals down, so ya' can't add wood without throwin' those coals out.


This is all the same crap we went through last winter, same crap... and it ain't worth going through it again.
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[Whitespider]

That's also total BULL Del_,
I never mentioned "modern" or "high efficiency" in my last couple posts... neither did I relate my box to any other box, certainly not all of 'em. I simply said I will never own another... nothing more.
As far as misapplication or improper installation... are you friggin' dense?? Did you read my last couple posts??
I installed it in the shop, exactly per manufacturer's directions, and tried using it exactly as it came from the showroom floor.
I can't do any more than that... I ain't the one in denial here.
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[NSMaple1]

I've got a question.

It isn't meant to take any sides in this Battle-Royale going on here, but might be quite relevant to the original thread topic.

Out of curiosity, I googled Spideys stove, and the specs that I found for it for output say:

Heat Output Cord Wood (BTU)72,000 BTU
Heat Output EPA (BTU)36,600 BTU

That's quite a variance, once is double the other. So excuse my ignorance - but what do those figures mean and why do the vary by so much? Does it mean that measuring the 'EPA way' is only done using half a load of fuel? Measured heat output should be measured heat output - do all 'EPA' stoves list output that way?

 

[Whitespider]

You have zero friggin' idea what you're talkin' about Del_.
Where in the hell does it say in the manual that it's "designed to heat a small insulated house" and not a "drafty open shop"??
Besides, I already explained, it ain't a "drafty open shop", it's a small two-stall garage (I use for a shop), not much bigger than my friggin' living room for cripes sake‼
It's a heater man... it either heats or it don't.
When I wanted some heat out there the last couple years I used one of those little propane heaters that run off a couple 1 lb cylinder... it heated better, and I could get a couple days use (or more) on a couple cylinders running it on the medium setting (9000 BTU). Just 18,000 BTU's max setting, rated for 400²ft... and that was before I fixed the drafts‼ (My garage/shop is 20×24, 480²ft).
I gave that heater to my son for his shop this fall when I installed the stove... I should'a gave him the damn stove and kept the heater.

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That's a damn good question NSMaple1,
As of yet no one has come up with a good explanation... I consider both numbers to be total BS.
Doubtful either number is derived from actually measuring the "output"... just guessin', but likely some math formula based on the "potential" heating value of wood verses the amount of heat exiting the chimney... in other words, total BS.
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[oldspark]

I've got a question.

It isn't meant to take any sides in this Battle-Royale going on here, but might be quite relevant to the original thread topic.

Out of curiosity, I googled Spideys stove, and the specs that I found for it for output say:

Heat Output Cord Wood (BTU)72,000 BTU
Heat Output EPA (BTU)36,600 BTU

That's quite a variance, once is double the other. So excuse my ignorance - but what do those figures mean and why do the vary by so much? Does it mean that measuring the 'EPA way' is only done using half a load of fuel? Measured heat output should be measured heat output - do all 'EPA' stoves list output that way?

If I remember correctly one is sort of an average, the other is max.

 

[Chris-PA]

I've got a question.

It isn't meant to take any sides in this Battle-Royale going on here, but might be quite relevant to the original thread topic.

Out of curiosity, I googled Spideys stove, and the specs that I found for it for output say:

Heat Output Cord Wood (BTU)72,000 BTU
Heat Output EPA (BTU)36,600 BTU

That's quite a variance, once is double the other. So excuse my ignorance - but what do those figures mean and why do the vary by so much? Does it mean that measuring the 'EPA way' is only done using half a load of fuel? Measured heat output should be measured heat output - do all 'EPA' stoves list output that way?

This has been one of WS's big rant points. These are two separate ratings, and it does not say they both occur at the same time. One lists the energy output under the specific conditions defined in the EPA tests. It may not be conditions that are similar to what you want to do, but at least you can read the test procedure, understand what is being done and compare the performance to other stoves under those same conditions.

The other is ill defined and may indicate the maximum energy it can extract from a load (?) of wood. Cord wood cannot mean "a cord of wood" as that represents millions of BTUs. "Cord wood" is probably intended to mean real hardwood as opposed to what is used in the EPA test. Note that BTUs are a unit of energy, not rate of energy output (i.e. BTU/hr, etc.) which would be a measure of power. It could be that they intend it to mean BTU/hr and it's just sloppy spec writing, or it may be that it really means total energy extracted from the wood, however long it takes to do that. A spec like X BTU tells you how much of the energy it will ultimately extract from the fuel, but not how long it will take to do that.

You cannot simply equate the two.

This is why it is far more useful to look at a stove's capacity in terms of how much fuel you can put in it. This will give you a feel for the total energy the firebox can contain, and the rate of energy output (i.e. instantaneous output power) will be dependant on the type of stove it is.

A good secondary combustion stove operated correctly will have a significant boost in the rate of energy output when the secondary burn is active, and will extract a greater percentage of the energy from the load of fuel (which results in less unburned fuel up the flue). It will not necessarily produce a greater rate of energy output over some arbitrary period (like 8hrs) than a campfire-in-a-box. They have different instantaneous output power profiles, especially if you choose not to adjust the air inlet. There is no conspiracy, one just needs to understand how they work and how to interpret the specifications/ratings and units.

WS's (main) problem was always that the BTU/hr was too low when the secondary combustion stopped because the stove was too small. The installation and operation issues only exacerbated that.

 

[oldspark]

Well I have the big brother to the stove Spidey had and I can relate to what he is saying, EPA's stoves have their quirks and will not kick out the same type of heat as the older stoves especially the good ones.
I made the mistake of buying a smaller stove then the old one (people giving advice about wood burners who were crapping yellow when I started burning wood) so I am working on the house and may be getting some where. They work well if matched to the area you are heating.

 

[Ronaldo]

I am using a Pacific Energy Super 27 in a fairly well insulated ranch home with only one level that has 2100 square feet. This has been the main source of heat for 13 years and am very pleased with its performance. The stove has required no maintenance other than several secondary burn baffle gaskets(put in a new one when I take the baffle out for inspection and cleaning etc). It is -2 and 20mph winds outside, but a nice 72 inside as I type this. When very cold like this, I use a fan to move a bit more heat to the back bedrooms to keep temps more even. The only time I have coal build up problems is when burning Elm exclusively, and several splits of seasoned oak thrown in take care of excess coals.
This stove has worked great for me for many years and I highly reccomend them, but not all applications are the same........your mileage may vary as they say. That is my 2 cents.
Stay Warm!
Ron

I posted this back on page two:
I can understand that some folks have had issues with the modern EPA rated stoves and I dont know what can be done to solve them, but there are a lot of them out there that are working and working very well. I have at least 3 friends and even more guys that I know that are using these types of stoves to heat their homes.
Jotul, Vogelzang, Woodstock Soapstones, etc are some of them that I know of.
As my comments above on page two indicate, I have the same stove that Whitespider tried and is so dissatisfied with. It has been heating my ENTIRE 2100 S.Q. house for a lot of years, so I KNOW THAT SOME OF THEM WORK.
So I cannot agree that they are ALL junk and that the EPA fireboxes as they are being called dont make heat and do it efficiently.
My experiences and those of some close friends tell me otherwise.

Ron

 

[Cerran]

You have zero friggin' idea what you're talkin' about Del_.
Where in the hell does it say in the manual that it's "designed to heat a small insulated house" and not a "drafty open shop"??
Besides, I already explained, it ain't a "drafty open shop", it's a small two-stall garage (I use for a shop), not much bigger than my friggin' living room for cripes sake‼
It's a heater man... it either heats or it don't.
When I wanted some heat out there the last couple years I used one of those little propane heaters that run off a couple 1 lb cylinder... it heated better, and I could get a couple days use (or more) on a couple cylinders running it on the medium setting (9000 BTU). Just 18,000 BTU's max setting, rated for 400³ft... and that was before I fixed the drafts‼ (My garage/shop is 20×24, 480³ft).
I gave that heater to my son for his shop this fall when I installed the stove... I should'a gave him the damn stove and kept the heater.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That's a damn good question NSMaple1,
As of yet no one has come up with a good explanation... I consider both numbers to be total BS.
Doubtful either number is derived from actually measuring the "output"... just guessin', but likely some math formula based on the "potential" heating value of wood verses the amount of heat exiting the chimney... in other words, total BS.
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Which would seem to indicate something is wrong with the specific stove you have. Are you sure everything is assembled right and that something isn't working as it should?

The EPA numbers versus the real world cordwood numbers are legitimate measures:

1) The EPA number is based on the specified EPA test procedure which calls out the size/type of the load of wood to be used

2) The cordwood number is what you get with the stove on high fire and loaded to the brim with seasoned cordwood

http://chimneysweeponline.com/wscomp8.htm

 

[naturelover]

.

 

[Whitespider]

Which would seem to indicate something is wrong with the specific stove you have. Are you sure everything is assembled right and that something isn't working as it should?

Well... never say never... but I don't see anything out's place.
I've checked, double checked, triple checked, and more all the air passages and draft control linkages.
I've had the baffle out several times, it's clean... holes are open.
I replaced all the fire brick with a pre-cut set directly from Pacific Energy.
The ash clean out door shuts tight... don't leak.
When the secondary burn engages it shoots jets of flame into the firebox... a regular damn firestorm in there unless I cut the draft back to somewhere in the "normal" range.
During secondary burn the only thing exiting the chimney is heat waves.
The box ain't warped, cracked or twisted.
And yup... the firewood is well seasoned... the stuff I've been burning lately in it is three-year-old hard maple... and I've tried all different sizes of splits.

Really, when the secondary is active it heats like a Banshee... but it's short lived, like an hour, two if you're lucky with a full load of oak.
It just don't extract any heat once the secondary shuts down, and it leaves a deep bed of coals that just lay there (just think how many coals a full load of oak would make in a couple hours). I mean, even 2, 3, 4 hours later the coals are still laying there, covered with a little ash... you can stick your hand in the box and hold it there for several seconds before it even starts getting uncomfortable. Stir them coals up and the get screamin' hot... for maybe a minute, two if your lucky... then back to little or nothin'. They just ain't gettin' enough air to burn; and if ya' just walk away for a day, you'll come back to a pile of ash and un-burnt charcoal... the top third ash, the bottom two-thirds un-burnt charcoal. Heck, I've even found half-burnt splits buried in the charcoal.

Thanks for askin'... kind'a nice... it's the first time someone has considered there may be something wrong with the stove, instead of something wrong with the way I installed or use it.
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